Obama must accept "the will of the Arab people"

[Guest]

The reason you are confused, is because you are wrong in your line of thinking. Again let's look at this below.

While we have entities like the USA who DO have the means and the will and the 'moral' capacity to do something about it. The USA helped create their own problem by actually facilitating violence from Muslim extremists.

Two completely different lines of thought. Yours does not have anything to do with mine.

I was replying to someone who seemed to imply, quite wrongly, that the US was disposed towards invading any country that didn't do as they were told, when in fact, the only countries that currently have world conquest as their goal are the very ones (s)he said did not. Muslim countries. As they freely admit.

Edited November 11, 2012 by bcsapper

[GostHacked]

Two completely different lines of thought. Yours does not have anything to do with mine.

I was replying to someone who seemed to imply, quite wrongly, that the US was disposed towards invading any country that didn't do as they were told, when in fact, the only countries that currently have world conquest as their goal are the very ones (s)he said did not. Muslim countries. As they freely admit.

So can you tell me which of these Muslim countries are trying for global domination?

[Guest]

So can you tell me which of these Muslim countries are trying for global domination?

Any that follow islamic law instead of a secular system.

I didn't say they were trying. I said they couldn't try. They don't have the means.

[GostHacked]

Any that follow islamic law instead of a secular system.

I didn't say they were trying. I said they couldn't try. They don't have the means.

But the US does not need to quite invade a country for change they want to see. It did work with Iraq though.

[DogOnPorch]

The head of Fatah recently made a major concession to Israel during an interview. Perhaps in search of peace. He soon retracted it though, because they burned him in effigy in Gaza.

There will never be any kind of peace there while the Gaza strip is run by Hamas. For the singular reason that they are not in the least bit interested in peace.

Hamas is very clear as to their objectives. But then, Fatah's logos also make clear a similar objective.

Fatah's logo...note the silhouette of Israel in the back.

The PLO logo...

Edited November 12, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[jacee]

Not true. There are limitations to hate speech in the US. You can not incite violence or hatred with words in the US. In fact the Canadian Charter of Rights is very similiar to the US constitution on Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Assembly.

In fact there are numerous decisions in the US similiar to Canadian ones as to controlling speech that goes too far and Ernst Zundel was expelled from the US to Germany precisely because of it.

The difference is the US does not have human rights commissions and in particular the Ontario Human Rights Commission that has made some bizarre decisions about matters concerning discriminatory practice not be to mixed up with hate laws.

As you may also be aware there are international laws both the US and Canad subscribe to concerning the promulgation of hatred.

Where we have a real difference is in practical enforcement. The US has a stronger tradition of protecting freedom of speech then Canada.

It reflects a cultural difference more than a legal one. Americans are much more aggressive when it comes to civil liberties than Canadians.

Now for example we had a famous case in Skokie, Illinois where Nazis were allowed to march in a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood but interestingly the police were close by in full force and there were some prominent Jewish lawyers in the Civil LIberties Union who defended the rights of Nazis to march. But to say they would have been allowed to state openly people should attack Jews is not true. The police and FBI who are in charge of

civil rights enforcement were there watching.

Its interesting because some in the US claim the US is not pro civil liberties enough.

In Canada just recently, outside Queen's Park, the provincial parliament of Ontario, the government allowed a rally for Al Quds day which commemorates the day Israel became a nation from an anti Israel Arab perspective and numerous individuals made openly anti semitic speeches and called for violence against Israel and Jews but the police were told to simply stand by and not do anything unless there was physical violence.

You would be interested to know at the yearly gay pride parade, there is but one political float, run by a group of gay Muslims who chant for Israel to be dismantled.

Enforcing freedom of speech in Canada is complex. Its subjective, arbitrary and subject to a lot of cultural and political values of the day.

It has been popular for years to attack Jews as long as you pretext it as being connected with a discussion on Israel on most university campuses in Canada. However if the same is done in reverse with Islam or other ethnic or religious groups the gatherings have been shut down.

Its a very subjective thing. Our Charter is supposed to be applied no differently than yours when it comes to freedom of speech or inciting crimes.

Your country also will not permit using words to incite violence or crime. It has shown it will step in at rallies where speakers have done such a thing.

I in fact thing the FBI for the most part have done a very good job , In our country we have different police forces in charge of it therefore they reflect the political perspectives of their provincial leaders and individual police chiefs. Ironically while criminal law is exclusively federal in Canada and for the most part state jurisdiction in the US, because the US federal government has jurisdiction on civil rights issues that supercedes local police, they have had a more effective enforcement history than in Canada where police enforcement is subject to provincial and municipal levels of intervention as well.

The Metro Toronto Police force has well trained officers in dealing with hate crimes reflecting the fact this city has over 120 ethnic groups with 80 different languages spoken, the most diversified city in the world. However in more rural areas it is felt the RCMP which acts as provincial police in provinces who can not afford their own provincial police have not done a good job. Some of our small city and town police forces reflect the values of their community which are very klanish. There are some towns in Ontario where the small town or city police do not hide their bias against new Canadians or aboriginal peoples. They reflect more of an us against them mentality then a specific hatred of any particular culture.

You can get away with a lot of hate speech in small towns. There is no one there to challenge it.

I am one of those people who prefers it out in the open to deal with head on then going underground because of censorship. I think once it goes underground its more dangerous. I have no problem with a bigot right in my face. Its the ones that smile and act all polite I have issues with.

I also don't mind someone who hates everyone equally. Those kind of people I can deal with. Its the smarmy white liberal guilt ridden ones that try act all righteous that make me sick. There is no shortage on this forum who pretend to be almighty righteous and liberal until someone with some colour in their skin moves next door or someone disagrees with them then they are as intolerant as all the people they lash out at as being bigots.

I think all in all the police should not have to be politcal police and don't want to be but are forced to at times.

All in all an interesting and informative post ... except where you again go off the rails equating criticism of certain actions of "Israel" with criticism of "Jews" in general - ie, accusing critics of Israeli aggression of being anti-semites.

It's a bizarre kind of lie ... propaganda ... intended to silence opposition to Israel's crimes against humanity.

You don't speak for all Jews, Rue.

Nor do I speak against all Jews when I criticize Israel's aggressive acts: I speak against the actions of the current right-wing extremist-influenced government of Israel, whose support by Jews within Israel is far from unanimous and certainly not worldwide.

But otherwise, a good post, appreciated.

[cybercoma]

It's a leap in logic. Sure there are some anti-semites that criticize Israel as a way to code their racism, but Israel is not exempt from criticism for its political activities whatsoever.

Edited November 13, 2012 by cybercoma

[jacee]

I was replying to someone who seemed to imply, quite wrongly, that the US was disposed towards invading any country that didn't do as they were told ...

"quite wrongly"

Your I-can-only-assume-youthful idealism is touching, but out of touch.

You don't know then that Iraq's oil is now profiting GW Bush and 4 Texas oil companies?

You don't know that Canadian soldiers cleared the path through Afghanistan for construction of the pipeline from Iraq to markets in India? ... or that drone attacks in Pakistan continue to kill men, women and children in the path of that pipeline?

Do you know how many attempts the US made to invade and steal control of Venuzuela's oil?

Just a couple of examples.

There are many more covert than these blatant ones.

Sigh ... I do vaguely recall when I saw our governments and the US through those rose coloured glasses ... but life is harsher and more complex than that.

Conflicts throughout the world arise when powerful money interests want access to a country's resources, and their governments, and ours, do whatever they can to facilitate the profiteers ... because there must be some payoff for the politicians I guess.

Sorry it's not as pretty as you'd like.

[Guest]

"quite wrongly"

Your I-can-only-assume-youthful idealism is touching, but out of touch.

You don't know then that Iraq's oil is now profiting GW Bush and 4 Texas oil companies?

You don't know that Canadian soldiers cleared the path through Afghanistan for construction of the pipeline from Iraq to markets in India? ... or that drone attacks in Pakistan continue to kill men, women and children in the path of that pipeline?

Do you know how many attempts the US made to invade and steal control of Venuzuela's oil?

Just a couple of examples.

There are many more covert than these blatant ones.

Sigh ... I do vaguely recall when I saw our governments and the US through those rose coloured glasses ... but life is harsher and more complex than that.

Conflicts throughout the world arise when powerful money interests want access to a country's resources, and their governments, and ours, do whatever they can to facilitate the profiteers ... because there must be some payoff for the politicians I guess.

Sorry it's not as pretty as you'd like.

Ah yes, and Bush planned 9/11, and Aliens landed at Roswell.

Well, maybe the Roswell bit is true...

[jacee]

Ah yes, and Bush planned 9/11, and Aliens landed at Roswell.

Well, maybe the Roswell bit is true...

Ah yes ... well .. whatever you choose to believe is your choice. Denial can be more comfortable than truth.

You really didn't know the US invaded Iraq to prevent Saddam Hussein from nationalizing Iraq's oil, which would have interfered with the profiteering of Bush and his Texas oil buddies?

9/11 was horrific ... but how did the American outrage get directed at Iraq, which had nothing to do with it, and turned out not to have any WMD's either ... but did have oil that US companies wanted?

[Sleipnir]

Hamas is very clear as to their objectives. But then, Fatah's logos also make clear a similar objective.

Fatah's logo...note the silhouette of Israel in the back.

The PLO logo...

You're gonna have to clarify that - not sure what I'm suppose to be looking at? A bunch of black squiggly lines?

[Guest]

Ah yes ... well .. whatever you choose to believe is your choice. Denial can be more comfortable than truth.

You really didn't know the US invaded Iraq to prevent Saddam Hussein from nationalizing Iraq's oil, which would have interfered with the profiteering of Bush and his Texas oil buddies?

9/11 was horrific ... but how did the American outrage get directed at Iraq, which had nothing to do with it, and turned out not to have any WMD's either ... but did have oil that US companies wanted?

It's absolutely indisputable that Iraq had WMDs. They used them on the Kurds. It's not a matter of opinion.

You're right about denial.

[cybercoma]

It's absolutely indisputable that Iraq had WMDs. They used them on the Kurds. It's not a matter of opinion.

You're right about denial.

So it only took 15 years to respond?

[Guest]

So it only took 15 years to respond?

The response wasn't revenge for the Kurds.

Edit> I assume. They don't tell me.

Edited November 13, 2012 by bcsapper

[Guest American Woman]

The United States will overtake Saudi Arabia and Russia as the world's top oil producer by 2017, the West's energy agency said on Monday, predicting Washington will come very close to achieving a previously unthinkable energy self-sufficiency.

http://news.yahoo.com/u-overtake-saudi-top-oil-producer-iea-132331660.html

But yeah, it's all about the oil. Why else would the U.S. have wanted to oust a nice guy like Saddam?

[Guest]

The United States will overtake Saudi Arabia and Russia as the world's top oil producer by 2017, the West's energy agency said on Monday, predicting Washington will come very close to achieving a previously unthinkable energy self-sufficiency.

http://news.yahoo.co...-132331660.html

But yeah, it's all about the oil. Why else would the U.S. have wanted to oust a nice guy like Saddam?

Not only that, but you only have to okay a pipeline and you can have ours!

[Guest American Woman]

Not only that, but you only have to okay a pipeline and you can have ours!

It'll happen - you can bet on it.

[DogOnPorch]

You're gonna have to clarify that - not sure what I'm suppose to be looking at? A bunch of black squiggly lines?

Both the old PLO logo and the newer Fatah logo show all of Israel as Palestine. Not just the Gaza Strip and WB.

[jacee]

It's absolutely indisputable that Iraq had WMDs. They used them on the Kurds. It's not a matter of opinion.

You're right about denial.

OMG ... k ... unh ... whatever.

[dre]

Both the old PLO logo and the newer Fatah logo show all of Israel as Palestine. Not just the Gaza Strip and WB.

So what?

[dre]

It's absolutely indisputable that Iraq had WMDs. They used them on the Kurds. It's not a matter of opinion.

[Guest]

OMG ... k ... unh ... whatever.

Deny it.

Or is 3000 deaths not enough? More than 5000 needed for it to be WMD?

Edited November 13, 2012 by bcsapper

[DogOnPorch]

So what?

Ummmm...sends a message?

[Guest]

So what?

It's a good indication of their goals.

Not that we really needed another one.

[DogOnPorch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program