Obama must accept "the will of the Arab people"

[GostHacked]

Who footed the bill for WW2?

The taxpayer, every time.

[DogOnPorch]

The taxpayer, every time.

The American taxpayer and war bond purchaser.

Edited November 14, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[WIP]

The American taxpayer and war bond purchaser.

Why not tell the whole truth? The U.S. used the post war period to establish itself as the world business and banking empire; so don't act like America didn't extract its pound of flesh from Latin America, Asia and Africa in the following half century.

[DogOnPorch]

Why not tell the whole truth? The U.S. used the post war period to establish itself as the world business and banking empire; so don't act like America didn't extract its pound of flesh from Latin America, Asia and Africa in the following half century.

America is by far the most generous country on the planet. That you dislike them is trendy, if anything.

[Guest American Woman]

America is by far the most generous country on the planet. That you dislike them is trendy, if anything.

What a nice thing to say. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

[DogOnPorch]

What a nice thing to say. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

We have a few posters here that seem to think otherwise. Europe would STILL be a smoking ruin without the help of the Marshall Plan. Countries like Canada faced bankruptcy as our factories closed...only to be given new life producing US aircraft/tanks under license. Places like BC and the Yukon were remote wildernesses...but thanks to Hitler invading Russia and the Japanese invading Alaska, these were opened-up with American $$$ and effort in terms of new modern airfields and highways STILL in use today. Iran...America's so-called enemy...was brought out of the stone-age the same way...see The Persian Corridor. Japan...flattened in WW2...was built back to strength under the benevolent leadership of MacArthur whose love for the Far East was proven more than once. This same story is repeated around the globe, year after year on some levels...but yeah....Suharto was a murderous SOB and Madam Nhu shot-off her mouth too much. Bad USA...

[dre]

Yup...ka-ching.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Marshall_Plan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GARIOA

http://en.wikipedia....(relief_agency)

http://en.wikipedia....pation_of_Japan

None of those links prove what you said which was that "the US footed the bill for WW2".

The reality is that the countries involved in the war all paid a big price. Most of them sold almost all of their gold and dollar reserves to fund the war, and their foreign investments as well. Thats not to say that the US didnt pay for a large portion of the post war reconstruction, but your statement is still patently false.

[dre]

We have a few posters here that seem to think otherwise.

This is just a silly strawman and a moving of the goalposts. Nobody said the US wasnt generous. You made a false statement and were corrected.

[DogOnPorch]

This is just a silly strawman and a moving of the goalposts. Nobody said the US wasnt generous. You made a false statement and were corrected.

No I didn't and you just make funny faces.

[DogOnPorch]

None of those links prove what you said which was that "the US footed the bill for WW2".

The reality is that the countries involved in the war all paid a big price. Most of them sold almost all of their gold and dollar reserves to fund the war, and their foreign investments as well. Thats not to say that the US didnt pay for a large portion of the post war reconstruction, but your statement is still patently false.

OK...name another country's rebuilding plan for Europe...or anywhere.

[dre]

OK...name another country's rebuilding plan for Europe...or anywhere.

This is more shameless moving of the goalposts. Its hard to tell if youre being intentionally dishonest or if you just have a hard time following the conversation and remember whats been said. Go back and read your origional statement.

Your also ignoring where the US got the money to fund those programs... They borrowed it both from American citizens and from the rest of the world.

So as an answer to "who footed the bill for WW2" my answer "a whole shitload of people", is about as accurate an answer as you are ever going to get. A whole host of countries funded both the war effort itself and reconstruction.

[DogOnPorch]

You're entitled to your version of reality, dre.

[dre]

You're entitled to your version of reality, dre.

Its uncontraversial and documented history. Like I said nations involved in the world sold their gold and dollar reserves and all their foreign investments and assets to fund the war effort. If you spend even 5 minutes you could go and verify this for yourself.

[Michael Hardner]

They claim they can give other countries freedom.

Two pages later, it seems like we have our answer.

[DogOnPorch]

Its uncontraversial and documented history. Like I said nations involved in the world sold their gold and dollar reserves and all their foreign investments and assets to fund the war effort. If you spend even 5 minutes you could go and verify this for yourself.

I'm referring to WHO paid to clean-up WW2...not who paid for the weapons to fight it. Go look-up the Marshall Plan.

[dre]

I'm referring to WHO paid to clean-up WW2...not who paid for the weapons to fight it. Go look-up the Marshall Plan.

Sorry your origional statement and the one I responded to was simply "Who footed the bill for WW2?". You never said anything about only including post war reconstruction. Like I said its a little bit confusing to argue with you sometimes because you seem to forget which conversation youre having right in the middle of it.

But even if you DO ammend your origional statement to only include post war reconstruction you are still wrong and I am right... A shitload of people all over the world payed for it. The US funded those plans by selling bonds, so the people around the world that bought those bonds paid for some of it as well. Not to mention the various countries being rebuilt also funded a lot of reconstruction themselves, and did so for decades following the war. Not to mention that eastern europe paid for their own reconstruction and turned down aid under the Marshal plan

That doesnt diminish the US's role in reconstruction at all... nobody argued that it wasnt huge.

Edited November 15, 2012 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry your origional statement and the one I responded to was simply "Who footed the bill for WW2?". You never said anything about only including post war reconstruction. Like I said its a little bit confusing to argue with you sometimes because you seem to forget which conversation youre having right in the middle of it.

But even if you DO ammend your origional statement to only include post war reconstruction you are still wrong and I am right... A shitload of people all over the world payed for it. The US funded those plans by selling bonds, so the people around the world that bought those bonds paid for some of it as well. Not to mention the various countries being rebuilt also funded a lot of reconstruction themselves, and did so for decades following the war. Not to mention that eastern europe paid for their own reconstruction and turned down aid under the Marshal plan

That doesnt diminish the US's role in reconstruction at all... nobody argued that it wasnt huge.

The Series E bonds which paid for the remarkable reconstruction projects were sold to the citizens of the USA...not around the world.

[dre]

The Series E bonds which paid for the remarkable reconstruction projects were sold to the citizens of the USA...not around the world.

Thats fine, but even if thats the case surely you realize by now that your origional statement was not even close to true right?

[Guest American Woman]

We have a few posters here that seem to think otherwise. Europe would STILL be a smoking ruin without the help of the Marshall Plan. Countries like Canada faced bankruptcy as our factories closed...only to be given new life producing US aircraft/tanks under license. Places like BC and the Yukon were remote wildernesses...but thanks to Hitler invading Russia and the Japanese invading Alaska, these were opened-up with American $$$ and effort in terms of new modern airfields and highways STILL in use today. Iran...America's so-called enemy...was brought out of the stone-age the same way...see The Persian Corridor. Japan...flattened in WW2...was built back to strength under the benevolent leadership of MacArthur whose love for the Far East was proven more than once. This same story is repeated around the globe, year after year on some levels...but yeah....Suharto was a murderous SOB and Madam Nhu shot-off her mouth too much. Bad USA...

Again, thank you. I do believe, as you said previously, that it is "trendy" to badmouth and think ill of the U.S./Americans right now; so often we're criticized either for going to war or not going to war soon enough, it seems, so it's good to hear someone point out, and appreciate, what the U.S. has done.

Thats fine, but even if thats the case surely you realize by now that your origional statement was not even close to true right?

For the record, I knew exactly what he was saying, and it's that recognition that I was thanking him for.

[DogOnPorch]

Again, thank you. I do believe, as you said previously, that it is "trendy" to badmouth and think ill of the U.S./Americans right now; so often we're criticized either for going to war or not going to war soon enough, it seems, so it's good to hear someone point out, and appreciate, what the U.S. has done.

The constant revision of history in terms of the US, like dre is doing, is typical of today and similar to the efforts to delegitimize Israel. Next thing you know, folks will say America faked the Moon Landings or that Neil Armstrong was actually a Muslim. Oh, wait...

For the record, I knew exactly what he was saying, and it's that recognition that I was thanking him for.

Of course he knew. But, it's his job to be obtuse and petty while changing history to suit. So I don't mind.

[Peter F]

Give me unlimited funds and power to act and I'll hide 100 18 wheeler trucks with trailers somewhere in BC. Some might be buried. Find them.

give me 1 million dollars and I'll show you where they are in a week

[DogOnPorch]

give me 1 million dollars and I'll show you where they are in a week

One million dollars wouldn't help city boys out in the bush. Bears are large round these parts.

[WIP]

We have a few posters here that seem to think otherwise. Europe would STILL be a smoking ruin without the help of the Marshall Plan. Countries like Canada faced bankruptcy as our factories closed...only to be given new life producing US aircraft/tanks under license. Places like BC and the Yukon were remote wildernesses...but thanks to Hitler invading Russia and the Japanese invading Alaska, these were opened-up with American $$$ and effort in terms of new modern airfields and highways STILL in use today. Iran...America's so-called enemy...was brought out of the stone-age the same way...see The Persian Corridor. Japan...flattened in WW2...was built back to strength under the benevolent leadership of MacArthur whose love for the Far East was proven more than once. This same story is repeated around the globe, year after year on some levels...but yeah....Suharto was a murderous SOB and Madam Nhu shot-off her mouth too much. Bad USA...

Speaking from the pov of someone who used to maintain dual citizenship earlier in my life and travels to the U.S. often today, since I still have lots of American relatives, I take more than a casual interest in U.S. politics, culture issues etc. When I was younger, I may have agreed with your mythical Neocon presentation of America as the greatest nation on Earth, and saviour of civilization....but, I grew up!

A transformative moment for me was one that I did not realize while it was happening, but developed over a period of years after me and my family developed a close friendship with neighbours who originally came from Guatemala many years ago. Fact is that anyone growing up in Central America, Mexico or South American countries knows and appreciates firsthand the overt and covert meddling of U.S. political and economic interests....who declared that the entire New World was all part of the USA's sphere of influence not long after the conclusion of WWII. I would add that qualifier that I am speaking of people who belonged to the large underclasses of these societies, not the wealthy, priviledged elites who usually provide the leadership and act like the spokesmen for Latin American issues over the years that our media turn to for expert analysis.

What my friend could tell you, from the personal experience of being a youth living in a Mayan village in Northwest Guatemala was that the media narrative presented to us in the 70's and 80's of the U.S. fighting "communism" in Latin America by supporting "democratic" movements and governments was a total fraud! In Guatemala's case in particular, the "born again" evangelical president - Efraim Rios Montt, was merely a paid hack representing the country's land owners and business interest. And their primary interest was to keep the indigenous majority population of the country marginalized. The so called "Communist" guerillas in the highlands who were supported by the peasants living in the countryside, did not come from Cuba and were not brainwashed and trained by Russian agents. There were a number of leftist movements that were engaged in a guerilla war with government forces for many decades because there were no peaceful avenues for majority rule and land reform. Remember that back in the 1950's, your beneficent empire had their School Of The Americas-trained military leaders overthrow the democratically elected government because proposed land reform threatened the interest of U.S. multinational corporations.

And before I drift off track, the reason it became a personal experience for my friend was because, during the reign of Rios Montt, the CIA had drafted a counter-insurgency strategy (sound familiar) to drive the guerrillas out of their friendly base of support among the Mayans living in the countryside....and that was accomplished by unleashing Death Squads to attack and terrorize and punish the people directly for overt and tacit support of the rebels. So, one night, a death squad, made up of mercenaries and ununiformed police and soldiers attacked one night, and everyone who was able, had to flee into the jungle to escape from the death squads, or face the prospects of being killed or raped, as some were unfortunately. A few of those who were trapped in the village and beaten and raped, were left behind for that specific purpose - to act as a witness and a warning to others to join the mass migration of refugees across the Guatemalan border into Mexico's Yucatan Territory.

Conclusion: many people here heard bits and pieces of these stories; we heard that many right wing gangs - like Reagan's Contra rebels were likely worse than any communists they claimed to be fighting; some may have wondered if the U.S. Government was spawning and supporting the worst right wing groups through the CIA, but few Americans and Canadians are aware that the game in Latin America (and the rest of the world) has never been about creating democracy and helping undeveloped nations flourish. The game has been played primarily to advance the interests of U.S.-based multinational corporations, and to secure the control of natural resources considered important for the vast military/commercial empire. And that game hasn't changed in our time right now, as the empire is in decline, and acting more ruthlessly than it did during the good old days when they felt secure in being able to control world banking, commerce and all of the necessary natural resources in foreign countries.

[WIP]

Again, thank you. I do believe, as you said previously, that it is "trendy" to badmouth and think ill of the U.S./Americans right now; so often we're criticized either for going to war or not going to war soon enough, it seems, so it's good to hear someone point out, and appreciate, what the U.S. has done.

Whenever I badmouth Americans, I am including Canadians too now, as we have settled into living under Conservative Government that marches in lock step with U.S. Neocon interests. If Americans (or Canadians too now) feel insulted by what the rest of the world is saying, then they have a responsibility to learn about what their government is doing; what corporations based in their nation do in foreign lands (Canadian mining companies in particular, are destroying the image of Canada in many foreign lands now), and speak out against it! If the average American does not speak out against a president who starts undeclared wars for reasons that could not be justified later, and his successor continues the war policy, starting new wars and proxy wars, and refusing to allow any investigation of the previous regime; or allows the press leaks of him having a Kill List of foreign enemies to be targeted for assassination (I'll conclude here for now), and does nothing or says nothing about it, then they deserve to be lumped in together with their Government's foreign policies.

[DogOnPorch]

Good thing the Russians kept out of Central America...