Winnipeg police chief touts prayer to help combat crime

[Mighty AC]

I think you had too many beers with your wings.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Mighty AC

[betsy]

First, thank you for your charitable actions. I too am a very active food bank supporter and volunteer.

However, it is you that helps the food bank with action, donations, solicitation, etc. Your prayers do not.

That's not the statement I was responding to. I was responding to your statement that seem to claim we just pray and do nothing....like as if we're just sitting under the apple tree, waiting for the apple to fall. At least that's how I took your statement. You must be referring to some other religion that I know nothing about...not Christianity.

Don't thank me. I want no thanks. I said that just so to show that we are doing something else other than praying.

Anyway, how do you know prayers did not help at all? You seem so authoritative in your assumption - so pray, explain.

How do you know the help that came from donors like you was not an answer to the prayers of those who need help?

Do you expect a big miracle as an answer to a prayer?

Edited November 7, 2012 by betsy

[GostHacked]

That's not the statement I was responding to. I was responding to your statement that seem to claim we just pray and do nothing....like as if we're just sitting under the apple tree, waiting for the apple to fall. At least that's how I took your statement. You must be referring to some other religion that I know nothing about...not Christianity.

Don't thank me. I want no thanks. I said that just so to show that we are doing something else other than praying.

Anyway, how do you know prayers did not help at all? You seem so authoritative in your assumption - so pray, explain.

How do you know the help that came from donors like you was not an answer to the prayers of those who need help?

Do you expect a big miracle as an answer to a prayer?

Not so much, prayer that helps as it is a part of human nature and the human condition to help one another in a crisis.

[guyser]

Anyway, how do you know prayers did not help at all? You seem so authoritative in your assumption - so pray, explain.

Two years ago I hung a tennis ball on my railing to keep Polar Bears from attacking me.

Two years and not a single Polar Bear seen around my neighbourhood. Woot!

[Mighty AC]

How do you know the help that came from donors like you was not an answer to the prayers of those who need help?

How do you know that volunteer work and charitable donations do not stem from the heightened intuition gained by the handling of amethyst crystals?? It sounds to me like someone has been asking a sky daddy to grant wishes instead of offering tributes of unicorn tears to Odin like a sensible woman. tsk tsk That's what is wrong with the world today.

[Guest American Woman]

I think you had too many beers with your wings.

Yeah, that strong American lite beer will do that.

[betsy]

How do you know that volunteer work and charitable donations do not stem from the heightened intuition gained by the handling of amethyst crystals??

Whether they did stem from it or not....it still helped the one who prayed (the one they helped). You may believe it stemmed from just about anything .....but it's not the donor that we're talking about but the one who's doing the praying. It's the belief and faith of the one who's praying. You're shooting at the wrong target....again.

If he thinks the help came from God - through you - who are we to say in conclusion that it did not?

After all, no one can truly say for a fact that there is no God. So, there could be a God.

It sounds to me like someone has been asking a sky daddy to grant wishes instead of offering tributes of unicorn tears to Odin like a sensible woman. tsk tsk That's what is wrong with the world today.

EH? New Atheists are usually the ones who tend to throw the Skydaddy term ! Could you be one of them? So far....you seem to have problems with "aiming." Uh-oh....that doesn't bode well.

Here, go to this topic and see if you are indeed a New Atheist.

http://www.mapleleaf...showtopic=19376

Edited November 7, 2012 by betsy

[Sleipnir]

Anyway, how do you know prayers did not help at all? You seem so authoritative in your assumption - so pray, explain.

Prayers actually do help....create carbon dioxide for plants

On a more serious note, praying can help fixed one's mental state of mind to become console, empowered, focused, etc.

Other than that, it doesn't really do anything else.

[The_Squid]

On a more serious note, praying can help fixed one's mental state of mind to become console, empowered, focused, etc.

Other than that, it doesn't really do anything else.

So can meditation.... Deep breathing.... Praying to Odin.... Chanting to the sun god....

All these things help as equally as praying to a Christian god.

Edited November 8, 2012 by The_Squid

[Sleipnir]

All these things help as equally as praying to a Christian god.

Or any gods.

Edited November 8, 2012 by Sleipnir

[cybercoma]

Or Satan.

[Mighty AC]

It's the belief and faith of the one who's praying. You're shooting at the wrong target....again.

If he thinks the help came from God - through you - who are we to say in conclusion that it did not?

After all, no one can truly say for a fact that there is no God. So, there could be a God.

Yes, we generally cannot prove a negative. That is why the burden of proof is placed on those making the positive claim. That is also why the default position is disbelief and reasonable people require evidence before accepting an assertion. We may accept minor assertions on very little evidence but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Despite not knowing her, I believe that American Woman went out for beer and wings after voting. That is a minor, reasonable assertion that I have no reason to doubt. The idea that a person in need sent wishes to an invisible sky god, who then interfered with my thought processes in a way that caused me to donate to and volunteer my time with the food bank is a very extraordinary claim. This claim is on par with belief in ruling aliens from Xenu and Kolob, like Travolta and the Mittster adhere to. It's even more extreme than belief in the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot and unicorns.

Simple logic tests of your claim do not help its case, in fact they cast even more doubt.

1) How likely is it for an invisible, all powerful, being that exists outside of the bounds of space and time to exist? Unlikely.

2) How likely is it for said being to hear and respond to wishes? I don't know let's question that.

i) Does this being respond to an individual's wishes with regularity? No.

ii) Should an all powerful being require a medium to act through? No.

iii) How likely is it that I would be chosen as the actor? Unlikely.

3) Would an omnipotent being, who is apparently the source of morality, ignore the most pressing concerns of man and yet respond to this one? Probably not.

This could go on and on but you get the point. The case you're making requires significant evidence yet instead we have serious reasonable doubt.

[Mighty AC]

You might then ask what's the harm in believing in BS like prayer if it makes the believer feel better? Like an imaginary friend placebo effect.

If you would ask a question like that yourself, I have a few for you:

- Does truth matter?

- Is there danger to a population with a widespread belief in magic?

- Does every unreasonable claim like a flying spaghetti monster, witchcraft, astrology, ESP, a monster in Loch Ness or a living Elvis deserve the same leeway and respect? We can't really prove any of those things false...so they may be true.

- Would it be hypocritical for a Christian to scold a child for blaming a misdeed on an imaginary friend?

[Sleipnir]

If he thinks the help came from God - through you - who are we to say in conclusion that it did not?

Logic, rational, common sense, etc

[betsy]

You might then ask what's the harm in believing in BS like prayer if it makes the believer feel better? Like an imaginary friend placebo effect.

If you would ask a question like that yourself, I have a few for you:

- Does truth matter?

- Is there danger to a population with a widespread belief in magic?

- Does every unreasonable claim like a flying spaghetti monster, witchcraft, astrology, ESP, a monster in Loch Ness or a living Elvis deserve the same leeway and respect? We can't really prove any of those things false...so they may be true.

- Would it be hypocritical for a Christian to scold a child for blaming a misdeed on an imaginary friend?

I wouldn't go so reckless and irresponsibly, and illogically lump Christian - and the theory of evolution - belief along with the spaghetti monster, lochness or living Elvis. Doing so shows I do not comprehend the arguments presented by betsy in the topic The Bible - for one. Lumping Christan belief with all those would automatically show I'm disregarding an argument not only based with facts (supported by science), and logic.

When one starts defending without reason - being illogical - then it's plain knee-jerk reaction. It's merely a pathetic defensive maneuver by a fanatic who knows there's nothing else in the arsenal effective enough to throw, so he just digs in and blabs to the finish!

[betsy]

Yes, we generally cannot prove a negative. That is why the burden of proof is placed on those making the positive claim. That is also why the default position is disbelief and reasonable people require evidence before accepting an assertion. We may accept minor assertions on very little evidence but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What is extraordinary evidence?

Methaphysical and philosophical does not require the same kind of proof as a scientific discussion. The proponent of the discussion is looking to show that the probability of his proposition is more probable than its negation or contradiction.

[Sleipnir]

When one starts defending without reason - being illogical - then it's plain knee-jerk reaction. It's merely a pathetic defensive maneuver by a fanatic who knows there's nothing else in the arsenal effective enough to throw, so he just digs in and blabs to the finish!

[GostHacked]

What about those who prayed and nothing happened? God's will?

[Mighty AC]

What is extraordinary evidence?

Methaphysical and philosophical does not require the same kind of proof as a scientific discussion. The proponent of the discussion is looking to show that the probability of his proposition is more probable than its negation or contradiction.

OK. So you believe the idea that an invisible, magical, omnipotent being, influencing my actions in response to a wish cast by another, is more probable than all other possibilities? Really?

Here are some other possibilities, please identify which are more probable than your assertion:

1) I enjoy helping people and believe that communities improve if we all lend a hand.

2) I need volunteer hours to pad a resume.

3) I go to hang out with, and impress a hot volunteer whose food bank t-shirt is at least 2 sizes too small.

4) I am doing court ordered community service for inciting homeless brawls for my soon to be uploaded YouTube video series called Homeless Havoc.

5) All of the above.

[betsy]

OK. So you believe the idea that an invisible, magical, omnipotent being, influencing my actions in response to a wish cast by another, is more probable than all other possibilities? Really?

Here are some other possibilities, please identify which are more probable than your assertion:

1) I enjoy helping people and believe that communities improve if we all lend a hand.

2) I need volunteer hours to pad a resume.

3) I go to hang out with, and impress a hot volunteer whose food bank t-shirt is at least 2 sizes too small.

4) I am doing court ordered community service for inciting homeless brawls for my soon to be uploaded YouTube video series called Homeless Havoc.

5) All of the above.

But like I said, we're not talking about YOUR motives or what motivated you to give.

You can list everything you want as reasons why you gave....

.....but the outcome remains the same: You gave. And it helped the one who prayed.

For us Christians, there is no such thing as a "coincidence." Let me give you an example:

There was a big fire in our town. Our house is situated on the corner of the block. The house across the street was already burning. Of course we've already vacated our house at this time, had already gotten out as much as we can.....my dad carrying the statue of Jesus Christ (he was a Catholic).

Knowing my dad and mom, I'm sure they were praying. In my heart, I was praying.

My elderly parents and I were on the street watching anxiously as our house started to emit smoke. Then the fire leaped from the burning house onto a corner of our roof, and a small part of the roof caught fire. We knew the house was doomed. The sinking feeling, even the groan that came from my dad. I was already thinking of getting an apartment to house my uprooted parents - and I'll have to shoulder everything financially since their income is also tied to the building (which had several commercial apartments for rent).

Suddenly, we saw the mayor pointing at our house - and all the firemen gathered and focused everything on our house. Apparently the mayor told them: "Don't let that house burn! If it burns, the fire will reach the market!" Our house was saved, everything was okay (except for that few inches of burned roof jutting from the corner). Nothing was even wet inside.

To you it is perhaps a coincidence, or any other reasons you might come up with to explain that.

But to us who prayed, it was a prayer answered.

Edited November 8, 2012 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

You broke yet another commandment by praying to mayor. There is only one God.

[Mighty AC]

But like I said, we're not talking about YOUR motives or what motivated you to give.

You can list everything you want as reasons why you gave....

.....but the outcome remains the same: You gave. And it helped the one who prayed.

For us Christians, there is no such thing as a "coincidence."

We are talking about the mechanism by which a prayers are answered. If there is no such thing as a coincidence then I assume you are claiming a magical being interfered in some way. That is an extraordinary claim. In all other areas of life we require evidence to justify extraordinary claims.

You said:

Methaphysical and philosophical does not require the same kind of proof as a scientific discussion. The proponent of the discussion is looking to show that the probability of his proposition is more probable than its negation or contradiction.[/Quote]

So I listed several possibilities that were more probable.

1) Do you believe that an interfering magical being is more probable than the lives of people living in close quarters naturally intersecting from time to time?

2) If the recipient of aid did not pray for help is our encounter then considered a coincidence?

Edited November 9, 2012 by Mighty AC

[Merlin]

You broke yet another commandment by praying to mayor. There is only one God.

Praying for the mayor and praying to the mayor are two separate things to be fair.

I don't see the harm in people including crime reduction into their daily prayers for those that do pray.

I'm fairly certain that the chief isn't simply going to sit back in his office doing nothing but praying, which is what is trying to be portrayed by those who are seemingly dishonest.

[BubberMiley]

I prayed Obama would win and it worked! Scientific proof!

[Merlin]

I prayed Obama would win and it worked! Scientific proof!

I don't think anyone is proposing forcing people to pray, nor is anyone offering scientific proof of prayer. If you don't want to pray BubberMiley then don't pray. I don't see how ridiculing and patronizing those who pray as being helpful. Even internalizing ones thoughts and reflecting can be seen as prayer even though one isn't necessarily praying to a 'God" per se.