Winnipeg police chief touts prayer to help combat crime

[Mighty AC]

Young earth creationists do believe in evolution to some extent. They deny long time frames and speciation beyond what they refer to as "kinds". They believe a creator seeded the earth with adult kinds, like the horse kind, the duck-goose kind, the elephant-mammoth kind, etc. This creator then granted them the ability to diversify within their own kind. So they believe horses, zebras, donkey's, etc all evolved from a common "kind". Their adjusted stance is really just a response to the fact that evolution and speciation are provable and observable.

Anyway, Betsy's musings on the unicorn illustrate why it is wise not to claim to know the unknowable.

[Sleipnir]

Could it not be possible a horse with one horn had existed, and became extinct?

How do you know the Rhino didn't evolve from a unicorn

Phylogeny

....since you believe in evolution?

I believe in gravity! I also believe that you can breath underwater without getting water in your lungs.

Perhaps the unicorn decided to make itself look uglier and meaner, and heavier - voila! A Rhino!

That was the theory in 1700's - try bringing yourself 400 years in the future (aka 21st century)

[Guest American Woman]

The existence of unicorns is completely unrelated to the existence of God. Unicorns are physical beings, which would leave physical evidence, while God is not.

[Mighty AC]

The existence of unicorns is completely unrelated to the existence of God. Unicorns are physical beings, which would leave physical evidence, while God is not.

If the term unicorn is throwing you off replace it with the Boogie Man, or Boogie Person if you're PC. I say as long as Boogie Woman can handle the physical requirements of the job then by all means let her do it.

Anyway, back to my point.

Is it likely that Boogie People exist? hell no.

Can we prove that Boogie People do not exist? no.

Is it dishonest to claim to know for sure that Boogie People are fake? Yes.

Hence, we do not believe in Boogie People, but we do not claim to know for sure.

On the other hand a 6 year old may believe in the Boogie Man (they are so un-PC sometimes) and also claim know they exist. That claim to know for sure makes them gnostics. However, we grown ups know that belief without sufficient evidence is a dangerous practice. Then those crazy kids just claim that it is silly to require evidence for the boogie man, you simply have to have faith in him to avoid the terrible punishments he delivers at night. Based on the specific interpretation of the Boogie Man story, various rituals of appeasement must be performed to avoid his wrath. The most common involve hiding under the covers until one drifts off into dreamland. Young kids will believe anything but fortunately they outgrow their childish beliefs as they learn to question information.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Mighty AC

[Guest American Woman]

If the term unicorn is throwing you off replace it with the Boogie Man, or Boogie Person if you're PC. I say as long as Boogie Woman can handle the physical requirements of the job then by all means let her do it.

It doesn't throw me at all. Just pointing out why it's not comparable.

...we grown ups know that belief without sufficient evidence is a dangerous practice. Then those crazy kids just claim that it is silly to require evidence for the boogie man, you simply have to have faith in him to avoid the terrible punishments he delivers at night. Based on the specific interpretation of the Boogie Man story, various rituals of appeasement must be performed to avoid his wrath. The most common involve hiding under the covers until one drifts off into dreamland. Young kids will believe anything but fortunately they outgrow their childish beliefs as they learn to question information.

Your insinuation that people of faith don't "question" their beliefs is ridiculous. Whether there is "sufficient evidence" depends on one's opinion. Comparing one's beliefs to "childish beliefs" is just downright arrogant and ignorant. You don't have the answer. You only have your beliefs.

[GostHacked]

The existence of unicorns is completely unrelated to the existence of God. Unicorns are physical beings, which would leave physical evidence, while God is not.

But since we have no physical evidence of a unicorn, can we say it has never existed?

[Mighty AC]

You don't have the answer. You only have your beliefs.

That's exactly what I've been saying. Based on the evidence I do not believe in deities but cannot claim to know for sure.

Do you claim to know that a god exists?

[Guest American Woman]

That's exactly what I've been saying. Based on the evidence I do not believe in deities but cannot claim to know for sure.

Fair enough. Apparently I misread you.

Do you claim to know that a god exists?

No, I do not. I claim that no one knows if a god does, or doesn't, exist.

[The_Squid]

Unicorns are physical beings, which would leave physical evidence, while God is not.

People believed in unicorns up to the 19th century! Who are you to say that they were wrong? The fact that the unicorn hasn't been seen since, like the fact that God hasn't chosen to show himself to any new prophets, is not evidence to refute the existence of unicorns. Or perhaps all the mythical beasts have been extinct for some time. Their disappearance is not evidence that refutes their existence.

The unicorn could heal the sick and purify water with its horn. A magical animal such as this doesn't just leave fossils of its horn or fossilized turds laying around.

The unicorn is also mentioned in the King James bible. You do believe in the bible, don't you?

"Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?" - Job 39:9-12

[Mighty AC]

No, I do not. I claim that no one knows if a god does, or doesn't, exist.

You are an agnostic theist then? You mentioned that you examine your beliefs. If it is something you are comfortable sharing, what evidence makes you believe in a god?

[Sleipnir]

If it is something you are comfortable sharing, what evidence makes you believe in a god?

A belief in a higher power does not required evidence, it is a personal thing - nothing more.

Edited November 16, 2012 by Sleipnir

[Guest American Woman]

You are an agnostic theist then? You mentioned that you examine your beliefs. If it is something you are comfortable sharing, what evidence makes you believe in a god?

I do examine my beliefs, but I don't discuss them because I believe there's no point, as people will believe what they will, which I have no problem with - but so many atheists don't see that they are just the other side of the religious "my belief is The Truth" ilk. I find both extremes equally annoying. I also find so much of the criticism of religion tedious, and, for lack of a better word, pedantic. The total lack of respect and condescending attitude towards others' beliefs is no better, or no less ignorant, if it's coming from fundamentalists or from atheists.

I think it would be interesting to discuss what people believe and why and to speak of personal experiences from all all angles, religious and non-religious, but experience shows that a respectful discussion of that nature is impossible.

[Sleipnir]

I also find so much of the criticism of religion tedious, and, for lack of a better word, pedantic. The total lack of respect and condescending attitude towards others' beliefs is no better, or no less ignorant, if it's coming from fundamentalists or from atheists.

I agree with you on that quote

[Merlin]

A belief in a higher power does not required evidence, it is a personal thing - nothing more.

Exactly. Whatever people choose to believe is of no ones concern except for that person. Canada isn't like some Islamic nations where non believers are put to death. In Canada if you want to believe that's fine and if not hey guess what, that's cool too.

[Sleipnir]

Exactly. Whatever people choose to believe is of no ones concern except for that person. Canada isn't like some Islamic nations where non believers are put to death. In Canada if you want to believe that's fine and if not hey guess what, that's cool too.

Can you make a post that doesn't have any reference to Muslims or Islam?

[Merlin]

Can you make a post that doesn't have any reference to Muslims or Islam?

Yes.

[cybercoma]

The existence of unicorns is completely unrelated to the existence of God. Unicorns are physical beings, which would leave physical evidence, while God is not.

i guess prayer is useless then, since god leaves no physical evidence. Thanks for confirming what was said earlier.

[Merlin]

i guess prayer is useless then, since god leaves no physical evidence. Thanks for confirming what was said earlier.

If someone will think it will help I don't see what harm it will do. It's not hurting anyone so why such an uproar over it? Maybe I'm not understanding.

[Sleipnir]

Yes.

Ok how about a longer post than that? How about a statement regarding a topic?

Edited November 17, 2012 by Sleipnir

[betsy]

No.

There you go. It isn't hard, isn't it to state where you stand....so I don't know why some had to attach "agnostic" to their identity - unless of course, they're confused, or wavering....or preparing something to cushion themselves - like dawkins - when they have a throw-down with Creationists.

Some true atheists refer to it as PC. Which it is, too.

To me - just like psycho-babble - it's just plain Philo-babble.

[betsy]

You incorrectly associate the term atheist with the making of faith claims. That is why there is need for explanation.

Am I an atheist? Yes.

Am I a gnostic? No.

I can't make it any clearer for you Betsy.

So you're an atheist. Period. Why do you have to say you're an "agnostic-atheist?"

You never did answer my hypothesis of the possible evolution of a unicorn into a....rhino.

After all, if evolutionist scientists can assume the existence of a "different" egg that they admit they don't even have any clue what it could've looked like - why are you so sure a unicorn have not existed and evolved?

Edited November 17, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Anyway, Betsy's musings on the unicorn illustrate why it is wise not to claim to know the unknowable.

Your neo-darwinist sceintists had mused about the existence of a "different kind" of egg! They'd mused that the bird evolved from the egg-laying dinosaur!

]Science News

Bird-From-Dinosaur Theory of Evolution Challenged: Was It the Other Way Around?[/b]

http://www.scienceda...00209183335.htm

See what happens when some pseudo-scientists try to pass off musings for facts?

Thank you. Coming from your own statement, since you say they are not wise, therefore you agree with me when I say, they are not credible.

Edited November 17, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

People believed in unicorns up to the 19th century! Who are you to say that they were wrong? The fact that the unicorn hasn't been seen since, like the fact that God hasn't chosen to show himself to any new prophets, is not evidence to refute the existence of unicorns. Or perhaps all the mythical beasts have been extinct for some time. Their disappearance is not evidence that refutes their existence.

The unicorn could heal the sick and purify water with its horn. A magical animal such as this doesn't just leave fossils of its horn or fossilized turds laying around.

The unicorn is also mentioned in the King James bible. You do believe in the bible, don't you?

"Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?" - Job 39:9-12

Job 38 and Job 39 are related.

Job 38

King James Version (KJV)

God challenges Job

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

² Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

³ Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

God shows Job's ignorance

⁴ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

⁵ Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

⁶ Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

⁷ When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

⁸ Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

⁹ When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

¹⁰ And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

¹¹ And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

¹² Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

¹³ That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

¹⁴ It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

¹⁵ And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

¹⁶ Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

¹⁷ Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

¹⁸ Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

¹⁹ Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

²⁰ That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

²¹ Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

²² Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

²³ Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

²⁴ By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

²⁵ Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

²⁶ To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

²⁷ To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

²⁸ Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

²⁹ Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

³⁰ The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

³¹ Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

³² Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

³³ Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

³⁴ Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

³⁵ Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

³⁶ Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

³⁷ Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

³⁸ When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

³⁹ Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

⁴⁰ When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

⁴¹ Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Job 39

God continues the challenge

39 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

² Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

³ They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.

⁴ Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.

⁵ Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?

⁶ Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.

⁷ He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.

⁸ The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.

⁹ Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

¹⁰ Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

¹¹ Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?

¹² Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?

¹³ Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?

¹⁴ Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,

¹⁵ And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.

¹⁶ She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not her's: her labour is in vain without fear;

¹⁷ Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.

¹⁸ What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider.

¹⁹ Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?

²⁰ Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible.

²¹ He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.

²² He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.

²³ The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.

²⁴ He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet.

²⁵ He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

²⁶ Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?

²⁷ Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?

²⁸ She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.

²⁹ From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.

³⁰ Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.

---------------------------------

My study clarifies that Job 38 and Job 39 are a series of questions that emphasize the marvels of the animal world. The unicorn is actually a wild ox.

Even if it is indeed a unicorn.....that doesn't negate my question towards MightyAC (and for you too since I assume you adhere to evolution).

What makes you assume the unicorn is a supernatural being? Just because people worshipped it?

Why do you even question if it existed or not? Couldn't it not have been possible that the unicorn is still around us today....even though it doesn't look exactly how it's depicted in books or by Walt Disney?

Just look at the Bible - it referred to the wild ox as a "unicorn!" For all I know God could've been referring to the wild ox as having evolved from the unicorn, hence He still refers to the wild ox as a unicorn.

If indeed there is evolution....shouldn't you believe that anything is possible???

The whole theory of macro-evolution so far is based on assumptions and musings. Therefore anything is possible! Musings and assumptions - sky's the limit. Who knows what influenced their musings - some could be "flying high" for all we know!

You don't think unicorns could've possibly existed, Squid? Answer. Yes or no.

Edited November 17, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

i guess prayer is useless then, since god leaves no physical evidence. Thanks for confirming what was said earlier.

Not interested in your interpretation of what I say.

By the way, it's not America that Canadians don't like: it's Americans.

Edited November 17, 2012 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

I don't know why some had to attach "agnostic" to their identity

Some do, some don't. People were attaching "agnostic" to "atheist" when talking to you because you don't seem to understand that atheist doesn't necessarily mean you believe certainly that there is no God. Myself included, it's a lot more complicated than that. There has been absolutely no evidence shown to suggest that there is a God (of any kind), so I find it so highly improbable that there is a God that I don't believe there is one. It's the same as the unicorn discussion. There is very little evidence for the existence of unicorns, so I don't believe they exist right now. If someone provides any kind of clear evidence that they do, then I would immediately change my position.