2000 Chinese workers coming to work Chinese mine -- in Canada

[Argus]

How in God's name is this allowed to happen? Is there anyone who really thinks you can't recruit people to work in a coal mine in Canada given the unemployment rate? Is it that complex and technical a job that you can't train people to do the work?

The Chinese coal-mining companies setting up shop in B.C. say it was a mistake that some of their local want ads demanded Mandarin language skills for jobs at their mines.

That's the latest twist in the controversy over the plan by a consortium of Chinese firms to bring in up to 2,000 Chinese miners to work at four proposed Interior coal mines.

http://www.theprovin...8248/story.html

The company has signed a contract with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada guaranteeing it will pay the workers wages, hours of work, transportation to Canada and home again and health care for the first three months (after that they are covered by the provincial health plan) and must comply with health and safety provisions. But, as the IRPP study notes, the federal agency specifically says that it is not responsible for enforcing those standards.

That’s left to the province and the courts with much of the onus put on the workers to complain.

http://www.vancouver...3014/story.html

Want to bet that after Nexen gets taken over the Chinese find it impossible to recruit local oil workers and start bringing in temporary workers from China?

Edited October 21, 2012 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Add to that the fact that Harper passed legislation that allows the Chinese to take Canadian firms to arbitration in China over things that happen on Canadian soil.

[cybercoma]

We have the Nexen deal looming as well. Hell, we'll all be speaking Mandarin in a generation at this rate.

[TimG]

Add to that the fact that Harper passed legislation that allows the Chinese to take Canadian firms to arbitration in China over things that happen on Canadian soil.

Do you have a link to actual source material rather than editorial content on rabble.ca?

[TimG]

How in God's name is this allowed to happen? Is there anyone who really thinks you can't recruit people to work in a coal mine in Canada given the unemployment rate? Is it that complex and technical a job that you can't train people to do the work?

This is insane. We want companies to come here and invest money but if they are not willing to train Canadians to do specialized jobs then they should take their money and go elsewhere. Edited October 21, 2012 by TimG

[cybercoma]

Do you have a link to actual source material rather than editorial content on rabble.ca?

I don't dig up sources for you because if you don't agree with it, you'll just dismiss it as biased.

[TimG]

I don't dig up sources for you because if you don't agree with it, you'll just dismiss it as biased.

That is why I asked for original source material. The only place I can find any discussion of this point is on left wing sites which means it could be nothing but a fantasy concocted by the NDP. That said, I would like to know if there is any real basis for this claim which is why I asked. If you could find the original source material I am sure other posters would like to see it too, Edited October 21, 2012 by TimG

[jacee]

So much for Harper's patriotism ... about as thick as a dollar bill.

Edited October 21, 2012 by jacee

[Guest American Woman]

That is why I asked for original source material. The only place I can find any discussion of this point is on left wing sites which means it could be nothing but a fantasy concocted by the NDP. That said, I would like to know if there is any real basis for this claim which is why I asked. If you could find the original source material I am sure other posters would like to see it too,

Are you referring to FIPPA?

[jacee]

Previous thread

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21687entry841968

[TimG]

Are you referring to FIPPA?

FIPAs? The only thing I could find is here:

http://www.internati...lang=eng&view=d

It appears the agreement with China is an identical agreement signed with many other countries so it makes it hard to believe there is something to panic about. The most important part is the agreement is reciprocal which means China is required to give Canadian companies the same protections when they are in China.

Edited October 21, 2012 by TimG

[cybercoma]

China is required to give Canadian companies the same protections when they are in China.

Yeah. That Chinese government. Real straight shooters those guys. Totally trustworthy.

[wyly]

Yeah. That Chinese government. Real straight shooters those guys. Totally trustworthy.

yup, recall harper being all tough diplomacy guy for a photo op a couple weeks past when he refused to meet with the president of the Congo because of the Congo's human rights abuses...only to reverse himself to take it up the backside from the Chinese...

[TimG]

Yeah. That Chinese government. Real straight shooters those guys. Totally trustworthy.

Well it is a risk. If China falls to honour the terms of the agreement then the agreement can be cancelled by future government. Getting disputes out of the corrupt Chinese courts and into an international arbitration panel is definitely an improvement over the current regime for Canadian companies trying to invest in China.

I have failed to find any statement in the legalese that supports the spurious claims you made above. Can you point me to the text which you think supports your claims or withdraw them?

[Guest American Woman]

FIPAs? The only thing I could find is here:

http://www.internati...lang=eng&view=d

It appears the agreement with China is an identical agreement signed with many other countries so it makes it hard to believe there is something to panic about. The most important part is the agreement is reciprocal which means China is required to give Canadian companies the same protections when they are in China.

Have you read this article? "14 reasons why Canada-China investment deal needs more time, debate"

http://www.vancouver...ore-time-debate

- you may find it of interest; it does seem to raise some legitimate concerns, imo.

[wyly]

Add to that the fact that Harper passed legislation that allows the Chinese to take Canadian firms to arbitration in China over things that happen on Canadian soil.

I have no issue with migrant workers if don't have our own skilled workers to fill the positions but that arbitration in china bit if true is going too far...

[TimG]

you may find it of interest; it does seem to raise some legitimate concerns, imo.

This is interesting:

Other investment treaties (aka FIPAs) signed by Canada have a similar duration and, in this respect, are exceptional among modern treaties. Yet none put Canada primarily in the capital-importing position. As such, the Canada-China treaty effectively concedes legislative and judicial elements of our sovereignty in a way that other FIPAs do not. Chinese asset-owners in Canada will be able, at their option, to challenge Canadian legislative, executive, or judicial decisions outside of the Canadian legal system and Canadian courts.

So the critics had no problem when Canada negotiated these kinds of "one sided deals" that put Canada in the primary capital export position and the main beneficiary of the protections?. Doesn't that strike you as a tad hypocritical?

Here is a detailed paper on the actual cases before the NAFTA chapter 11

http://jilp.law.ucda...kinnear1-27.pdf

In the majority of the cases the panel decided in favour of the government being sued.

Edited October 22, 2012 by TimG

[TimG]

I have no issue with migrant workers if don't have our own skilled workers to fill the positions but that arbitration in china bit if true is going too far...

Still waiting for cybercoma to support his claim by referencing the text of the agreement which I linked to. So far: crickets.

[Battletoads]

As a British Columbian I'm rather confused, because, as I understand it, there are countless of unemployed miners in BC who would jump at such an opportunity. Even if there weren't I'm sure some of BC's tens of thousands of unemployed would been keen to take advantage of an opportunity to learn a skilled trade. Seems to me that the Cons are putting the interests of Chinese foreigner's ahead of those of British Columbian's and Canaidan's as a whole.

[Michael Hardner]

Battletoads - the government is moving forward towards the future. It's just the next step after cutting taxes to attract businesses to Canada.

[scribblet]

I'd like to know if there were no applicants for the positions, I thought a company had to prove they couldn't fill the positions with Canadians before bringing in outside labour.

I would also like to see proof of some of the assertions on here rather than pointing to an opinion piece.

[cybercoma]

Still waiting for cybercoma to support his claim by referencing the text of the agreement which I linked to. So far: crickets.

I already told you; I don't need to provide you with sources, since 1) you already seemed to find it and 2) every time anyone provides you with a source, if it doesn't match your beliefs, you completely dismiss them. There's no point.

[GostHacked]

Have you read this article? "14 reasons why Canada-China investment deal needs more time, debate"

http://www.vancouver...ore-time-debate

- you may find it of interest; it does seem to raise some legitimate concerns, imo.

The real concern is that there is no reciprocal trade in work flow. Canada cannot seem to invest or own Chinese companies. So with that fact alone we can see it is one sided trade. All trade with China needs to be revisited and real thorough investigation into China's practices. But this is expected to happen. Harper gets a statesman award for selling out his country. Shameful.

[Michael Hardner]

I already told you; I don't need to provide you with sources, since 1) you already seemed to find it and 2) every time anyone provides you with a source, if it doesn't match your beliefs, you completely dismiss them. There's no point.

It's standard protocol to provide a link when asked for one, though. Do either of you have a link or no ?

[Wild Bill]

The real concern is that there is no reciprocal trade in work flow. Canada cannot seem to invest or own Chinese companies. So with that fact alone we can see it is one sided trade. All trade with China needs to be revisited and real thorough investigation into China's practices. But this is expected to happen. Harper gets a statesman award for selling out his country. Shameful.

I agree that such deals with China seem to be very one-sided. It reminds me of how for years Quebec construction workers would be on jobs in Ontario while Ontario tradesmen are banned from working on construction jobs in Quebec.

Still, I am surprised at how you appear taken aback at the idea of Harper selling out his country. After all, he IS a Conservative and anyone who follows some of the posters on this board well knows that all Conservatives are dedicated to destroying Canada, the country they themselves and their families live in, simply for the gleeful joy of it!

It's their master plan! After they have destroyed the very home that they themselves share with the rest of us they will sit in the rubble and laugh maniacally at the success of their deeds!

After all, it's what Conservatives do! It is their raison d'etre!

Only left wing people and politicians care about the welfare of their country.

Without the in-depth and logical explanations of many leftwing posters to MLW, I would not be so fortunate as to know this!