Poor-Bashing is Never the Answer

[Wilber]

Wilbur, your fixating on the military here. It is the action, not the organization where enforced work would be slavery. It could be Tim Hortons and not the military for an example, only your not apt to be forced into a situation where your life could be forfeit because your poor if forced to work at TH's..

Well I guess it depends on whether you consider serving your country to be slavery or an honour. Nothing against Tim Hortons but I wouldn't consider working there much of either.

[Catchme]

Wilbur, your fixating on the military here. It is the action, not the organization where enforced work would be slavery. It could be Tim Hortons and not the military for an example, only your not apt to be forced into a situation where your life could be forfeit because your poor if forced to work at TH's..

Well I guess it depends on whether you consider serving your country to be slavery or an honour. Nothing against Tim Hortons but I wouldn't consider working there much of either.

Again wilbur, you have missed the point, the Military was someone elses example of where they could put "work fair" people to work.

I said it would be slavery, not meaning the military would be, but the act of enforced labour would be slavery, it matters not the what which people would be forced to do.

[margrace]

Work Fare does not work, we tried it. When I got worried about what protection there was for children in this program and did they do police checks on these people, I was told they never thought of it.

We dropped the whole idea. As someone said, supervision cost were more expensive than having these people get welfare.

[betsy]

The only problem with their schemes is that the poor become poorer and the rich become richer. It is time to put the rich out to pasture, and start listening to the poor about what is best for the poor, eh?

Most of the notable rich people came from the poor.

I do not doubt that a lot of poor have legitimate reasons for needing help.....but you cannot dismiss the fact too, that a lot of people had abused the system....and they are the reasons why there's so much cynicism and skepticism.

People do not want to hear that some welfare people blow their money on cigarettes, drugs and booze. That their starving children will continue to starve even if you give them more money. It paints such an ugly picture. But it is part of reality.

Anyway, of course the rich will only get richer....and the gap will widen between the rich and the poor. Why is that such a surprise? The rich have the extra money to invest and make more money!

What is worrisome is the way the middle class is starting to get squeezed out. In most third world countries, middle class hardly exists at all, if they ever do.

[madmax]

Most of the notable rich people came from the poor.

I do not doubt that a lot of poor have legitimate reasons for needing help.....but you cannot dismiss the fact too, that a lot of people had abused the system....and they are the reasons why there's so much cynicism and skepticism.

What is the percentage of abuse vs need?

People do not want to hear that some welfare people blow their money on cigarettes, drugs and booze. That their starving children will continue to starve even if you give them more money. It paints such an ugly picture. But it is part of reality.

It does paint an ugly picture. While this is the stereo type, the ones you see, how does this compare to the percentage that go to churches, volunteer to help, go to food banks, church lunches for christmas, look for clothes at Olive Branch's set up in churches, as well as pay the rent, and get the kids off safely to school with full bellies, so that their kids can be the next notable rich person whom came from poor.

What is worrisome is the way the middle class is starting to get squeezed out. In most third world countries, middle class hardly exists at all, if they ever do.

Most third world countries have no taxes or welfare system or ei system or healthcare. They do have Money, resources and profits.

Are you suggesting we are headed to third world status? It feels that way, and is our middleclass deminishing.

I think so.

[Wilber]

Again wilbur, you have missed the point, the Military was someone elses example of where they could put "work fair" people to work.

I said it would be slavery, not meaning the military would be, but the act of enforced labour would be slavery, it matters not the what which people would be forced to do.

I have no problem with people working for the money they receive from the state, as a matter of fact I think it is desirable but it needs to be productive work that they can be proud of. Even if I costs a bit more than just handing them money, it is still preferable.

In reality aren't the great majority of us forced to work, the alternative being poverty? The person who because a combination of circumstances such as age, skill's, time invested, etc has to continue working in a job they don't like, because not to would result in the loss of their home, pension, possibly family and ending up on the street? Are they not also slaves by that definition?

The military is not somewhere a person should be "put" because they aren't hacking it in civilian life and

I object to the idea that to be put in the military would be equated with slavery or regarded as a penalty. Like one was going to prison or worse. That's all.

[Live From China]

I think the problem with something like workfare is that it is probably more costly than welfare itself. I think the cost of setting up and administering such a program must be high. And in all fairness, the workfare recipients should be paid at least minimum wage. Otherwise, the program, would really smack of punishing people for being on welfare.

I don't know why it irks so many people that there are other human beings on welfare. First, I don't believe that most of the recipients want to be on welfare. Secondly, I don't believe most recipients are cheats. We love to quote anecdotal evidence of people on welfare with a brand new van or the woman who quit her job because welfare paid more. I mean would people really be interested in a headline that stated, "John Q. Anybody Is Legitimately On Social Assistance"? As a human being, I am ashamed that poor bashing is popular.

I think many people are what I call "social bullies." And like most bullies they are cowards who enjoy targetting those who are weaker than them. And many of the poor are like a person who is both too weak to fight back and with their hands tied behind their back. Just the kind of target a bully loves. Many of these "social bullies" love to forget that a huge number of the poor are children.

[myata]

The only problem with their schemes is that the poor become poorer and the rich become richer. It is time to put the rich out to pasture, and start listening to the poor about what is best for the poor, eh?

Let me guess... Could it be $ 20K Guaranteed Annual Income, no string attached, no questions asked and for life?

[Live From China]

Do they not have some kind of guaranteed income programs in European countries? If they do, I am sure their taxes are high. If they exist, how do they work? Are they successful? (And, please, if they do exist, just because rich people grouse about them doesn't make them unsuccessful!).

I know that poor bashing is popular, but what about corporate welfare? What about rich people who continually ask for tax breaks, and then ask for the burden of these "lost" taxes to be passed onto people who can't afford it?

[Curiouscanuck]

As someone said, supervision cost were more expensive than having these people get welfare.

High supervision cost - To me this shows how some people are just innately uncooperative, unwilling, unproductive and greedy.

[margrace]

For instance cutting trees along the road with chain saws, Lot of regulations, must have qualified people there at all time. Some places have multiple jobs and just teaching these to workfare takes mega time.

[geoffrey]

Work Fare does not work, we tried it. When I got worried about what protection there was for children in this program and did they do police checks on these people, I was told they never thought of it.

We dropped the whole idea. As someone said, supervision cost were more expensive than having these people get welfare.

With that super expensive Liberal/NDP proposed national nanny program those issues would be history. Perhaps we should just build the care centres for those on welfare, have their kids raised by government folks there, and put the parents to work.

The costs may be more initially, but then these people get skills and may move into the normal workforce over the longterm.

I just can't stand people getting a living for doing absolutely nothing. It's time they went to work, they are essientially our employees (we give them their cheque) so it's time they do our work.

[Drea]

Welfare (or Social Assistance as it's called here in BC) is a Provincial responisbility not a Federal one.

In BC it's difficult for a single person to get it (good) and a single mom has to be in some type of training program once her last kid turns three.

Our tenant, a single mom with 2 young children, went to school and took ECE (Early Childhood Education) and now she operates a profitable little day/night care in her place.

And wasn't it just a few years ago that Mr. Klein lowered the welfare rolls and all the welfare folks migrated over here to BC. Then Ralph and Gordo got together and now BC is tougher on welfare users/abusers.

Welfare is supposed to be a hand up not a hand out. I was on welfare when I first got to this town in '98. I walked everywhere, got a job, saved and bought an old tenspeed with a child seat. Rode that lipstick pink bike to work for a year, got an income tax refund and bought a $1000 beater.

Worked for another year and got a loan for a brand new car. (My first on my own and a very proud accomplishment!).

Last year I broke $50,000 mark. From welfare to 50 grand in 7 years.

It can be done folks!

But I remember the shame. My god the shame I felt when I had to go to welfare. I curled up in the corner of the worker's office and bawled my eyes out. I, a college grad, would of never thought that I would need welfare. But circumstances (an unexpected pregnancy, a layoff, a father-to-be running off) led me to that office.

While I support welfare and think it is great that we have a "net" for when times are tough -- I do beleive one should get off it and on their own two feet asap.

[Catchme]

I have no problem with people working for the money they receive from the state, as a matter of fact I think it is desirable but it needs to be productive work that they can be proud of. Even if I costs a bit more than just handing them money, it is still preferable.

In actual fact, what you are speaking of is pre-employment programs, subsidized work entry programs and state paid skills training. Unfortunately, those have of federal programs have been gutted by the CPC. And many provinces do not have them, and those that do/did have been gutted by right wing governments.

In reality aren't the great majority of us forced to work, the alternative being poverty? The person who because a combination of circumstances such as age, skill's, time invested, etc has to continue working in a job they don't like, because not to would result in the loss of their home, pension, possibly family and ending up on the street? Are they not also slaves by that definition?

Yes, I concur they are.

The military is not somewhere a person should be "put" because they aren't hacking it in civilian life and I object to the idea that to be put in the military would be equated with slavery or regarded as a penalty. Like one was going to prison or worse. That's all.

I actually agree with you on all the points you stated. And in reality no one equating it with slavery, just addressing the act of enforced work.

[geoffrey]

In actual fact, what you are speaking of is pre-employment programs, subsidized work entry programs and state paid skills training. Unfortunately, those have of federal programs have been gutted by the CPC. And many provinces do not have them, and those that do/did have been gutted by right wing governments.

Should have been challenged long ago, it's unconstitutional for the Federal government to interfere in social programs.

Let's take a look for a second... right-wing governments have been in charge of the economic successes of Canada... Alberta, BC. Ontario was a success, but is falling rapidly under many failed governments from all sides... mostly from the left. The success we've seen in the Maritimes... where did it come from??? Oh right, Bernie Lord's Tories!

Unemployment in provinces with right-wing governments is always significantly lower as cuts in welfare force people to realise that wow, maybe they could get off their butt's a find a job when they really have to.

[Live From China]

My god the shame I felt when I had to go to welfare.

I think society beats this into us. I remember when I actually thought I might have to go on welfare. I was angry, worried, discouraged, etc. but not ashamed. Thankfully, I didn't have to apply for social assistance.

so it's time they do our work.

If "push came to shove", would you be willing to job-share with someone on welfare? Or help to train them in your office, organization, plant, etc.

[Drea]

China, our office hires welfare trainees all the time. I think it's great that we are able to offer some training to help someone get off the system.

It in no way affects our regular staff.... they just work for three months (subsidized by gov't) to gain some experience. The one woman we had in last year is now head cashier at Rona/Revy. She just needed someone to give her a chance.

[Live From China]

I am glad to hear this, Drea! Your company is obviously showing social responsibility. What a wonderful country this would be if everyone was willing to do this.

[Curiouscanuck]

If "push came to shove", would you be willing to job-share with someone on welfare? Or help to train them in your office, organization, plant, etc.

No I wouldnt want to job share. But why would we job share? are you assuming the amount of jobs in the economy is fixed? That is a fallacy. It is called the lump of labour fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

I can think of many jobs that no skill no experience work people can do...

[Drea]

I worked for a bit as a teaching assistant at a private college that had a "training for jobs" program for those on welfare. It was really rewarding to see women who had never worked or who were in abusive relationships get off the system and stand on their own two feet.

[Catchme]

In actual fact, what you are speaking of is pre-employment programs, subsidized work entry programs and state paid skills training. Unfortunately, those have of federal programs have been gutted by the CPC. And many provinces do not have them, and those that do/did have been gutted by right wing governments.

Should have been challenged long ago, it's unconstitutional for the Federal government to interfere in social programs.

Oh, unconstitutional is it? Please post just what consitutions government social programs are breaking?

Let's take a look for a second... right-wing governments have been in charge of the economic successes of Canada... Alberta, BC. Ontario was a success, but is falling rapidly under many failed governments from all sides... mostly from the left. The success we've seen in the Maritimes... where did it come from??? Oh right, Bernie Lord's Tories!

Yes let's take a look. That Alberta is doing well economically for the moment, is not because of right wing governing, it is accident of placement and nothing more. If not for the tar snads, just where would AB be, and to get into this further would mean serious topic drift. BC? Oh please I live here, Gordon Campbell has not built the economy. Bernard Lord was Premier of all the Maritimes? How about you have a look and see what constitutes the "Maritimes"?

Unemployment in provinces with right-wing governments is always significantly lower as cuts in welfare force people to realise that wow, maybe they could get off their butt's a find a job when they really have to.

How about you provide proof of this before I provide proof otherwise? And usually lower cuts in welfare equal higher payouts dealing with crimes of poverty.

[Live From China]

are you assuming the amount of jobs in the economy is fixed?

No.

[Wilber]

QUOTE

My god the shame I felt when I had to go to welfare.

I think society beats this into us. I remember when I actually thought I might have to go on welfare. I was angry, worried, discouraged, etc. but not ashamed. Thankfully, I didn't have to apply for social assistance.

I think it is appropriate and natural for someone to feel shame if they wind up on welfare. No self respecting person wants others to pay their way. That's a good thing because those are the people who will be the last to go on welfare and the first to jump at a chance to get off.

[madmax]

I just can't stand people getting a living for doing absolutely nothing. It's time they went to work, they are essientially our employees (we give them their cheque) so it's time they do our work.

Are you saying that the government provide jobs for people on welfare that pay minimum wage and 40 hours/week?

[Wilber]

Are you saying that the government provide jobs for people on welfare that pay minimum wage and 40 hours/week?

Anyone who works for a salary must be payed at least minimum wage but what province has a law that guarantees 40 hours a week for anyone?