Poor-Bashing is Never the Answer

[myata]

Good point. Thanks for the tip.

[Wilber]

A couple of seniors with over $100K in income, and wealth far exceeding that of the average working Canadian, will get $11K of tax-free dollars from our taxes to spend in Florida over the winter.

You'll have to let me in on that one. How does that work?

[Saturn]

A couple of seniors with over $100K in income, and wealth far exceeding that of the average working Canadian, will get $11K of tax-free dollars from our taxes to spend in Florida over the winter.

You'll have to let me in on that one. How does that work?

Very simple. You have $60K and your wife has $40K in income (or $50K/$50K if you prefer, $60K/$60K works too) and you are 65+. Read this and apply. You will receive monthly cheques totaling $11,800/yr - all tax-free. Then you go to Florida in the winter and spend it.

[myata]

And where's the "tax free" part is coming from? I'm looking at this year's income tax form, OAS is reported as regular income and deducted (non-refundable) from tax at minimum tax rate and to the max of $2000 pa. That means that max tax saving is 15% of $2000 = $300, not "all free". And that isn't a lot especially if people paid CPP contributions for several decades.

[Catchme]

geoffrey' saysOur sick? I think sick people come here, we've got some pretty impressive niche programs in Health Care.

Niche programs? I have encountered many people from Alberata who have children with disabilities that have set up home in BC. That is until they and their children have passed term limits and requirements to access programs. They get their child into the programs, usually independant community living programs, and then they move back to Alberta. The BC income assistance program pays for them.

That's what we are talking about here, the lazy... not the honestly disabled or anything like that... by the way.

What % of the population do you considered to be the "lazy" ones?

We still spend more per capita on social spending than the other provinces

Prove this please, you make these wild statements then never provide proof. I.e. the federal government involvement in social programs is unconstitutional, the employment is higher in conservative governed provinces as opposed to other, both of which you were wrong about.

We outspend BC in actual real terms on health and welfare...

Prove this please, as above

I'm just saying, the qualifying standards are higher for welfare in Alberta, so perhaps less people qualify

Please provide examples of qualifying standards.

... and they decide instead to work (instead of starve).

I see you have lots of charitable organizations feeding people, and running shelters, if your government was doing its job, and getting the largest bang for its bucks there should be no homelessness in AB, or those requiring food banks and church breakfast and lunch programs.

Catchme says: No switching social programs to welfare, I wa s speaking of back to work programs and employment programs, and such like that were cut by the CPC, NOT welfare. And you said good about time etc. followed up with unconstitutional. So now you have back tracked and admited employment issues are Federal responsibility.

Geoffery say: No. Unemployment insurance is a Federal issue. I insist that training programs, stuff like that, are local works and under provincial jurisdiction.

Absolutely not, work training programs and "stuff" like that have always been federal responsibility. It matters NOT what you insist, what matters is the fact and the truth of what is and has been.

catchme says:Newfoundland Labrador are experiencing issues with the Federal government over this, their oil industry cannot be compared to AB's. So Saskatchewan refuses to destroy its environment for a pittance in royalities and the oil companies can make greater profits off the backs of AB's in the present and future so they chose AB, again as I said, location location location.

geoffrey'says: So Alberta's policies gave us the success we have today? Thanks for clarifying what I've been trying to say for so long now.

No, I am saying I do not see Alberta's low unemployment rates as being a relevant example Alberta as a successful province based upon party governing, nor an indicator that it is.

geoffery says: Bernie Lord was the Premier of the first province in that region to have single digit unemployment and a signficant increase in the participation rate in a couple decades.

And if people just cared about economic success, and unemployment rates he would still be there no?

geoffery says: You need to look beyond the percentage of the population on EI. Total employment paints a more accurate picture. As does migration from Sask and Man to Alberta. Why don't people move from Newfoundland too? The flight isn't much more expensive? Perhaps their benefits are a little to toasty to run away from?

Ok throw up the links and stats to total emplyment rates, and we will see, I am sure that it will show almost exactly what the unemployment stats show, parity between the 3. Morover, NFLD people are moving to AB you should see how many are moving in, as Stats Canada shows, at the rate that those from the maritimes are moving in BC and indeed AB, we might have a change in politics, in some areas. Moving away from family and friends across the country takes money, and is hard.

Belittling people because perhaps they cannot affod too, is mean spirited, and so is telling a father to move away from his family because he cannot afford to move wife and children out with him, as is judging him because he chooses to stay with his family on income asssistance hoping to get a job or training.

geoffery says; Why do 71% of Albertans actively seek jobs or work and only 59% of Newfoundlanders or 61% of PEI people?

Look at the difference in age demographics to start with.

Geoffery says: This is a country, is it not? Shouldn't we be willing to migrate within a nation to work?

And people do all the time just check out Stats Canada migration flows within Canada, however, it is also hard to move away from your family, and sometimes impossible, perhaps moving packages would be a good thing to assist migration?

[Wilber]

A couple of seniors with over $100K in income, and wealth far exceeding that of the average working Canadian, will get $11K of tax-free dollars from our taxes to spend in Florida over the winter.

You'll have to let me in on that one. How does that work?

Very simple. You have $60K and your wife has $40K in income (or $50K/$50K if you prefer, $60K/$60K works too) and you are 65+. Read this and apply. You will receive monthly cheques totaling $11,800/yr - all tax-free. Then you go to Florida in the winter and spend it.

It ain't tax free.

Recovery

[Saturn]

Very simple. You have $60K and your wife has $40K in income (or $50K/$50K if you prefer, $60K/$60K works too) and you are 65+. Read this and apply. You will receive monthly cheques totaling $11,800/yr - all tax-free. Then you go to Florida in the winter and spend it.

It ain't tax free.

Recovery

It is tax-free if your income is under $63,000. I specifically said "You have $60K and your wife has $40K in income (or $50K/$50K if you prefer, $60K/$60K works too)". I also said that you should read the rules.

[Saturn]

And where's the "tax free" part is coming from? I'm looking at this year's income tax form, OAS is reported as regular income and deducted (non-refundable) from tax at minimum tax rate and to the max of $2000 pa. That means that max tax saving is 15% of $2000 = $300, not "all free". And that isn't a lot especially if people paid CPP contributions for several decades.

And this means that you cannot even read a tax return. Sheesh!

OAS is reported as income on line 113 and is then deducted on line 250. OAS is tax-free and is reduced if income exceeds $63,000. OAS has absolutely nothing to do with CPP - receipt of OAS does NOT imply that you worked even a single day in your life, so don't go off topic with completely irrelevant things.

[myata]

And this means that you cannot even read a tax return. Sheesh!

OAS is reported as income on line 113 and is then deducted on line 250. OAS is tax-free and is reduced if income exceeds $63,000. OAS has absolutely nothing to do with CPP - receipt of OAS does NOT imply that you worked even a single day in your life, so don't go off topic with completely irrelevant things.

From 2006 Special Income Tax and Benefit Guide

Line 250 - Other payment deduction

... generally you can deduct the amount from line 147 of your return. This is the total of workers' compensation payments, social assistance payments, and net federal supplements (box 21 T4A(OAS)). ...

OAS pension is box 18 on T4A(OAS). Looks like it's you who can't read the form, even though it was made especially shall we say, simple, to avoid any misunderstanding. I wouldn't trust you to count my loose change, let alone do taxes.

The guide also mentions that benefits will have to be repayed if net income exceeds 62K.

So, to round it up: one pays CPP for years and years, it's not a tax so one can reasonably expect to get something out of these payments upon retirement, and it's still limited to a certain income cutoff. Sorry, you'll have to explain a bit better where do you see that gross injustice.

[Wilber]

Very simple. You have $60K and your wife has $40K in income (or $50K/$50K if you prefer, $60K/$60K works too) and you are 65+. Read this and apply. You will receive monthly cheques totaling $11,800/yr - all tax-free. Then you go to Florida in the winter and spend it.

It ain't tax free.

Recovery

It is tax-free if your income is under $63,000. I specifically said "You have $60K and your wife has $40K in income (or $50K/$50K if you prefer, $60K/$60K works too)". I also said that you should read the rules.

I hate to break this to you but nothing is tax free. They just don't start clawing back the principal until your income reaches 63K. By the time you hit around 100K you get nothing. It is all taxable.

[Saturn]

From 2006 Special Income Tax and Benefit Guide

Line 250 - Other payment deduction

... generally you can deduct the amount from line 147 of your return. This is the total of workers' compensation payments, social assistance payments, and net federal supplements (box 21 T4A(OAS)). ...

Ok, you got me there. It is the GIS part that is non-taxable the OAS part is taxable.

So, to round it up: one pays CPP for years and years, it's not a tax so one can reasonably expect to get something out of these payments upon retirement, and it's still limited to a certain income cutoff. Sorry, you'll have to explain a bit better where do you see that gross injustice.

To round it up, CPP has absolutely nothing to do with OAS or GIS. CPP contributions entitle you to CPP benefits. OAS is a payment made to all who are 65 or older and have been a resident of Canada for 10 years (roughly). You may have spend your entire life in jail and not paid a cent into the CPP and you will still receive $5,800 just because you are 65. Now go read the link I provided earlier and stop insisting that apples are oranges.

[Saturn]

I hate to break this to you but nothing is tax free. They just don't start clawing back the principal until your income reaches 63K. By the time you hit around 100K you get nothing. It is all taxable.

GIS is tax-free. So if your income is under $103K and are sitting on assets worth millions, you get additional OAS income for nothing (except your age). Then you can go on and on and on about how little Johnny is ripping you off because his mom is on welfare. Buzz off, really!

[Wilber]

Ok, you got me there. It is the GIS part that is non-taxable the OAS part is taxable.

If your combined income is over $19727.99 you don't get GIS.

[Wilber]

Before you tell me to buzz off again, here is the link.

Table

[Saturn]

Ok, you got me there. It is the GIS part that is non-taxable the OAS part is taxable.

If your combined income is over $19727.99 you don't get GIS.

If your combined income is over $10K, you don't get welfare. And you get GIS regardless of the amount of assets you are sitting on (GIS is income tested but not wealth tested). If you are worth $500, you don't get welfare.

OAS is free, unearned money that people get based on age and nothing else. It costs 5-10 times as much as welfare (which is based on need). You can split hairs all you want but the fact that people scream about welfare and say nothing about OAS is just that - poor-bashing.

[Wilber]

If you sell assets, any gain you made on them except for your residence is taxable. When you bought you those assets you did it with after tax money unless it was in the form of a pension plan which is taxable at the normal rate when you collect it.

I don't dispute that OAS is based on anything other than age but nothing is free. The person who has more retirement income probably payed more taxes when they were working. Do they need OAS? Maybe not and maybe it should be clawed back at a lower combined income level but don't give us this BS about it being tax free and people collecting GIS with incomes of 100K.

[Catchme]

Ok, you got me there. It is the GIS part that is non-taxable the OAS part is taxable.

If your combined income is over $19727.99 you don't get GIS.

If your combined income is over $10K, you don't get welfare. And you get GIS regardless of the amount of assets you are sitting on (GIS is income tested but not wealth tested). If you are worth $500, you don't get welfare.

OAS is free, unearned money that people get based on age and nothing else. It costs 5-10 times as much as welfare (which is based on need). You can split hairs all you want but the fact that people scream about welfare and say nothing about OAS is just that - poor-bashing.

Fine point Saturn, OAS is a huge expense that is received by those who do not need it in the 100's of thousands. And they take it out of the country to spend too. For example, my inlaws, both over 65, get OAS and spend every red cent of it in Yuma, AZ for 6 months out of the year. How many snowbirds are there?

Okay found that 80k belong to the Canadians Snowbird Association:

The Canadian Snowbird Association is comprised of more than 80,000 Canadians, mainly seniors and retirees who travel outside Canada, for up to six months of the year.

and they say:

Since its inception, the CSA has grown to become the pre-eminent voice of snowbirds, seniors and all Canadians in its defense of the rights and privileges Canadians have earned.

http://www.snowbirds.org/html/about.html

Well I agree its a good thing they defend the rights and priviledges Canadians have earned, I would imagine that is their OAS. Having said that, those that bash those on welfare, and yet take OAS and think it is a right with greater moral value than that of welfare monies would be wrong. They are having fun in the sun on my money.

[geoffrey]

Do those dual-citizens over in Lebanon (and elsewhere) get OAS as well? Or just resident citizens?

[Saturn]

I don't dispute that OAS is based on anything other than age but nothing is free. The person who has more retirement income probably payed more taxes when they were working. Do they need OAS? Maybe not and maybe it should be clawed back at a lower combined income level but don't give us this BS about it being tax free and people collecting GIS with incomes of 100K.

No, people with 100K incomes don't collect GIS. They collect OAS. People with $60K incomes collect $5,800 in OAS. And OAS is free - it's money for nothing. What exactly makes you think that you are entitled to spend in Florida my salary for the full month of January, while I'm busting my ass working in the cold for it? Especially when you are sitting on an income comparable to my own and on far more assets than I own? As far as I can tell, that's nothing but legalized theft! Then you proceed to spend my salary for February, March, and April because you require health-care. Then if I happened have an accident, lost my job and my savings, and ended up on welfare, you'd be screaming at the top of your lungs that I'm ripping you off. Fine job mister, now you can keep going on and on about my slip on the tax status of OAS vs GIS.

[Saturn]

Do those dual-citizens over in Lebanon (and elsewhere) get OAS as well? Or just resident citizens?

Residents only.

[geoffrey]

Do those dual-citizens over in Lebanon (and elsewhere) get OAS as well? Or just resident citizens?

Residents only. You wouldn't get OAS if you were out of the country for a year (or less if they catch you). Of course you are supposed to let the authorities know if you are leaving the country even for a few months (such as spending the winter in Florida) but nobody ever does that.

Residents only? Does that include non-Canadian residents? I think we may have found area one of cutbacks.

[mikedavid00]

Do those dual-citizens over in Lebanon (and elsewhere) get OAS as well? Or just resident citizens?

Residents only. You wouldn't get OAS if you were out of the country for a year (or less if they catch you). Of course you are supposed to let the authorities know if you are leaving the country even for a few months (such as spending the winter in Florida) but nobody ever does that.

So basically yes they do get it.

[Saturn]

Residents only? Does that include non-Canadian residents? I think we may have found area one of cutbacks.

Ok, pooped again - I keep getting OAS and GIS mixed up. Some of those Lebanese-Canadians or Canadian-Lebanese may qualify for OAS, they would not qualify for GIS (or anyone else who is outside the country for more than a few months).

If you fall into either of the categories below, you may be eligible to receive the Old Age Security pension.

Category 1 - People living in Canada

* You are 65 or older.

* You live in Canada and are a Canadian citizen or a legal resident at the time your pension is approved.

* You lived in Canada for at least 10 years after reaching age 18.

Category 2 - People living outside Canada

* You are 65 or older.

* You left the country and you were a Canadian citizen or a legal resident of Canada when you left.

* You lived in Canada for at least 20 years after reaching age 18.

Of course you get 1/40 of the full OAS pension for each year you were in Canada (10 years minimum), so if one of those Lebanese-Canadians spend 20 years in Canada after turning 18 and then left for good, s/he would be getting 1/2 of the full amount. Also Canada has agreements with many other countries on these matters (Lebanon included), so depending on what that agreement says, those Lebanese-Canadians may be getting less or nothing from Canada.

[mikedavid00]

* You live in Canada and are a Canadian citizen or a legal resident at the time your pension is approved.

Always read the fine print.

[mikedavid00]

Some of those Lebanese-Canadians or Canadian-Lebanese

Or how about just "Lebanese citizens who hold documents which entitle them to welfare, healthcare, and services from the country of Canada".