Principals Support No Zeros

[BubberMiley]

What if a learner never does an assignment? Should they just get an incomplete that will have no effect on his final grade?

They get an "incomplete" for the course, and therefore no credit. There is no final grade.

Edited September 29, 2012 by BubberMiley

[Jiblethead]

What if the zero acts like a zero and makes it mathematically impossible (or extremely unlikely) to create an average of 50% after it's been assigned? Your motivation is gone to do the next assignment, and you can "go soft" for the rest of the year.

Assigning an "I" gives kids the opportunity to take responsibility for their mistakes sooner rather than later.

But yes, there are lots of teachers in favour of the zero. That's because it requires less work on their part.

getting a zero does not make it mathimatically impossible to pass a class. Every assignment is weighted, and the zero only accounts for a given percentage of your overall grade. I had classes where i had several zeros, and still managed to get 70+

[socialist]

They get an "incomplete" for the course, and therefore no credit. There is no final grade.

no. they get the credit for the work they completed without being punished for incomplete work.

[GostHacked]

no. they get the credit for the work they completed without being punished for incomplete work.

So what do you do with the student who does not do any assignments? At the end of the year do you still pass the student to the next grade?

[Bonam]

getting a zero does not make it mathimatically impossible to pass a class. Every assignment is weighted, and the zero only accounts for a given percentage of your overall grade. I had classes where i had several zeros, and still managed to get 70+

Indeed, not sure what bubbermiley was talking about. Most courses have dozens of assignments, quizzes, tests, projects, etc. In the typical full year course back in my elementary school and high school years, there would be at least 1-3 graded works per course per week. With over 40 weeks of school per year, that's easily 100 graded works per course. You could get 0 on some thing and still get 99% in the course, in other words.

[socialist]

So what do you do with the student who does not do any assignments? At the end of the year do you still pass the student to the next grade?

A learner who does nothing doesn't advance. A learner who passes 5 out of 10 assignments and demonstrates learning, but doesn't do the other 5 assignments will move on under this policy. Because teachers don't know what caused that learner to miss those assignments.

[Signals.Cpl]

A learner who does nothing doesn't advance. A learner who passes 5 out of 10 assignments and demonstrates learning, but doesn't do the other 5 assignments will move on under this policy. Because teachers don't know what caused that learner to miss those assignments.

So you mean a child who does 50% of the work, gets 60% on the work done can advance year after year? This means that the student knows only about 30% of what is being taught yet that student gets a pass?

Having no solid base of knowledge sets up a student for failure when grade 10 math is based on grade 9 math and the student knows only about 30% of what is required to pass to the next level. Having the pass/fail level set at 50% is bad enough, setting it lower by giving out incomplete in order to pass them means that teachers become nothing more than over glorified babysitters.

If there is a specific problem that a student faces then by all means help them out and solve the problem, but letting them advance by in effect setting up a no-fail policy means that they will be set up to fail later in life when they end up in post-secondary education and/or the workforce.

[BubberMiley]

A learner who does nothing doesn't advance. A learner who passes 5 out of 10 assignments and demonstrates learning, but doesn't do the other 5 assignments will move on under this policy. Because teachers don't know what caused that learner to miss those assignments.

That's ridiculous. A student can't pick and choose what assignments they want to hand in. Even if they've finished 90% of the work and received 100% on it, if they choose not hand in that final 10% assignment, they get an incomplete. It's actually a harsher scenario than just giving them a zero and letting them pass the course.

[Bonam]

That's ridiculous. A student can't pick and choose what assignments they want to hand in. Even if they've finished 90% of the work and received 100% on it, if they choose not hand in that final 10% assignment, they get an incomplete. It's actually a harsher scenario than just giving them a zero and letting them pass the course.

That's not right either. They did 90% of the work and got 90% of the credit. 90% is an A, and they should pass with flying colors. Who is to say that a student who does 10 assignments and gets 90% on each one is any better than one who does 9 assignments and gets 100% on each one?

During my university years there are plenty of assignments I just plain didn't do, because there was not enough time to do everything, but I did enough and got 90% or more in most courses.

The grade should be based on the math, and the grading scheme should be clearly explained at the start of every class. If there are 10 assignments worth 10 points each, then a student needs to submit any combination of assignments totaling 50 points to receive 50% in the course. If there are any "must do" items, such as a final exam or term project, then that should be clearly stated up front as well. Anything else is just ideology, with no evidence whatsoever that it provides a better learning environment.

[BubberMiley]

That's not right either. They did 90% of the work and got 90% of the credit. 90% is an A, and they should pass with flying colors. Who is to say that a student who does 10 assignments and gets 90% on each one is any better than one who does 9 assignments and gets 100% on each one?

They have to complete the course or else it's incomplete. They can certainly do the assignment using only half their ass, and the teacher can grade them accordingly, but they need to complete all their assignments to the teacher's discretion before they can get credit.

[Bonam]

And 9 out of 10 assignments completed with a 100% grade is "incomplete" by your standards? Sure, why not. I suppose the student can hand in a blank sheet of paper labeled "Assignment #10" if it makes you feel better. But such a requirement wouldn't accomplish anything.

I stand by my view that the course grade should simply be based on the math. Sum up the total points the student earned, divide by the total points possible, and there you have your % grade for the course.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Bonam

[Guest Manny]

In some courses, there's only one major assignment or exam.

[Bonam]

In some courses, there's only one major assignment or exam.

If there is only one graded item, then one's grade would be based on their performance on that single item, of course.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Bonam

[BubberMiley]

I suppose the student can hand in a blank sheet of paper labeled "Assignment #10" if it makes you feel better. But such a requirement wouldn't accomplish anything.

It wouldn't be whether I feel better because I would never be a teacher. It's what makes the teacher feel better. And it's up to the teacher's discretion whether handing in a blank page is completing an assignment. They can say that's unacceptable and the assignment is still incomplete.

When a student signs up for a course, they're expected to do all the coursework in order to get a final grade. You can't get credit in Surgery 101 if you skip the last assignment of closing up the patient, even if you got 100% on all the other assignments.

[Jiblethead]

It wouldn't be whether I feel better because I would never be a teacher. It's what makes the teacher feel better. And it's up to the teacher's discretion whether handing in a blank page is completing an assignment. They can say that's unacceptable and the assignment is still incomplete.

When a student signs up for a course, they're expected to do all the coursework in order to get a final grade. You can't get credit in Surgery 101 if you skip the last assignment of closing up the patient, even if you got 100% on all the other assignments.

this is exactly why we cant allow students to take incompletes at an early age. They will learn they can pass the course without completing all the work. If the students thinks it is acceptable now, they will think it is acceptable later in life, when it obviously is NOT

[BubberMiley]

this is exactly why we cant allow students to take incompletes at an early age. They will learn they can pass the course without completing all the work. If the students thinks it is acceptable now, they will think it is acceptable later in life, when it obviously is NOT

Huh? By getting an incomplete, they will learn they cannot get credit for the course if they don't complete all the work. That's my point.

[GostHacked]

Huh? By getting an incomplete, they will learn they cannot get credit for the course if they don't complete all the work. That's my point.

And it should impact the final grade not be excused from it.

[BubberMiley]

And it should impact the final grade not be excused from it.

I agree. That's why there is no final grade. It's an "I". The student then has the opportunity to turn that "I" into a grade by finishing the assignments.

[cybercoma]

This subject needs more thought than anyone on this forum is willing to put into it, to be sure. The process of grading is pretty simple: teachers gather information on how the students are doing and report that information to the students/parents. That's it. Gather and report.

So why are grades even necessary? If you challenge yourself to think about it, a valid argument could be made that grades are completely unnecessary. You don't need to test students to gather information on how they're doing. Teachers know how their students are doing by virtue of interacting with them on a regular basis. A teacher could report to the student and parents how the student is doing without quantifying it through test scores.

There's a myth of objectivity around empirical data and quantifiable scores. But what's really being tested? Someone's ability or the amount of things they have learned may not be quantifiable with a test score. A test score, as some say, only shows how good a student is at taking tests. Anyone that has taught has seen this first hand. Some students give beautifully articulated answers to questions in class, show tremendous promise with homework or in-class work, but then suffer through tests when their anxiety gets the better of them.

This is a complicated problem with no simple solution. All of the howling about principles and doing what is right presumes some sort of objective knowledge about what the "right" thing is. I'm not sure, actually I know that no one here has really articulated what the right thing is and what we're trying to accomplish here with grading. What's grading's purpose? How can we achieve that purpose in the most effective ways? Is there a one-size-fits-all solution?

I imagine everyone has fundamentally different visions of the purpose for education and school. It seems those that believe schooling is about discipline also believe that zeroes should be given as a form of punishment for poor discipline. Those that don't believe education is disciplinary, but rather about building up people to be the best they individually can be, seem to also believe that perhaps there's a better way to help students achieve than punishing them with zeroes.

There's no simple answer because what's good for one student isn't good for another student, but in the interest of fairness we want everyone to be subjected to the same rules. As well, people vary greatly in their understanding of the aims and purposes of education. If we disagree on the goals of education, we can't possibly begin to discuss assessing students' progress and reporting it because we'll have fundamentally different views on what "progress" means and thus different opinions about the way it should be reported. And if every student has different needs and abilities, then progress means different things for every student.

So this seemingly simple issue is not even remotely as simple as it first appears. This issue requires an in-depth consideration of all facets of the problem. Everyone with an interest in this needs to be considered and the problem needs to be framed in a way that collaboratively we can find a solution to meet our common goals. In other words, how do we measure students' progress and teach them as much as we can, while still promoting accountability and responsible behaviours? If people really believe the simple answer is giving them zeroes on tests they miss, then they're missing the point entirely.

[punked]

So this seemingly simple issue is not even remotely as simple as it first appears. This issue requires an in-depth consideration of all facets of the problem. Everyone with an interest in this needs to be considered and the problem needs to be framed in a way that collaboratively we can find a solution to meet our common goals. In other words, how do we measure students' progress and teach them as much as we can, while still accountability and responsible behaviours? If people really believe the simple answer is giving them zeroes on tests they miss, then they're missing the point entirely.

We could agree if this is why these policies go in place. However this is not the reason these policies go in place. If this was the reason teachers would support it. Teachers do not, this is something being put on them from someone above them. Why? Well because if you can less students are failing as a Principal, School Board member, or Education Minster it reflects well on you. Students however aren't failing less because their behaviors are changing or they are giving more. They are failing less because we are asking less of them. That is a recipe for a dumb nation and that is wrong. It is bad policy in favor of good politics and that is not something we need in this country.

[Guest Manny]

That is a recipe for a dumb nation and that is wrong. It is bad policy in favor of good politics and that is not something we need in this country.

Part of this issue relates to competition between nations, in getting students to achieve a high level of excellence. If other countries, eg. Europe have similar grading schemes (ie, no zero policy) then it would make it appear that their students are doing better than ours. Therefore for us to do likewise would level the field, as it were and this would be more justified in my view. Although, not necessarily a good education per se.

I do not know if that's the case here.

[punked]

Part of this issue relates to competition between nations, in getting students to achieve a high level of excellence. If other countries, eg. Europe have similar grading schemes (ie, no zero policy) then it would make it appear that their students are doing better than ours. Therefore for us to do likewise would level the field, as it were and this would be more justified in my view. Although, not necessarily a good education per se.

I do not know if that's the case here.

They have international standardized tests which everyone uses to compare nations.

[Guest Manny]

They have international standardized tests which everyone uses to compare nations.

Really? Can you score a zero?

[punked]

Really? Can you score a zero?

I assume they drop highest and lowest grades to get a better standardized picture of each country. Canada though considering we spend about 50 days less in school then most countries each year scores pretty good on those tests.

Edited September 30, 2012 by punked

[cybercoma]

We could agree if this is why these policies go in place. However this is not the reason these policies go in place. If this was the reason teachers would support it. Teachers do not, this is something being put on them from someone above them. Why? Well because if you can less students are failing as a Principal, School Board member, or Education Minster it reflects well on you. Students however aren't failing less because their behaviors are changing or they are giving more. They are failing less because we are asking less of them. That is a recipe for a dumb nation and that is wrong. It is bad policy in favor of good politics and that is not something we need in this country.

Again, it's the myth of objective quantitative data. If the yardstick is numbers, then they will make the numbers look favourable by any means necessary. That's only one small part of what I'm talking about. There is no giant conspiracy to make administrators look awesome. It would be stupid to implement a "no zero" policy then point to the fact that the students aren't getting zeroes as a measurement of their achievements as admins. Your cynicism is getting the better of you here I'm afraid.