Principals Support No Zeros

[socialist]

The Catholic and private system are vastly superior. I'm sure that nothing is as great as the enlightened public system but what can you do.

There are some really great private schools in Canada. Some can be expensive yes but very good. We looked into it ourselves but the Catholic system where we are has been good so far. If they try to start teaching anything radical like the public system we'll be pulling our children and going private but until then all is well.

The fact that you promote the catholic system makes me know for sure that it isn't all that great.

[Mr.Canada]

The fact that you promote the catholic system makes me know for sure that it isn't all that great.

Lol. I promote the Catholic system because I was raised in the public system and my children are now in the Catholic system so I have first hand knowledge on both systems. Can you say the same thing? Or are you just bashing it because of second, third and fourth hand info?

[socialist]

Lol. I promote the Catholic system because I was raised in the public system and my children are now in the Catholic system so I have first hand knowledge on both systems. Can you say the same thing? Or are you just bashing it because of second, third and fourth hand info?

Does the catholic church teach equality FOR ALL and TOLERANCE OF ALL?

[Mr.Canada]

Does the catholic church teach equality FOR ALL and TOLERANCE OF ALL?

Yes of course.

[Melanie_]

You should be fired for that. A learner demonstrates understand and you take away marks because it wasn't handed in when you wanted. That maybe worked in the stone age but not in today's education.

We seem to have a philosophical difference in the purpose of education. You feel that the only thing that matters is the accumulation of facts; this approach values only academic achievement, regardless of any other considerations. I take a different approach. Education is certainly about academics, but I also value the whole person. This means that academics are only one facet of education; other facets include life skills, development of personal characteristics, and social and emotional competence. When a student is held accountable for their actions, it helps them to understand responsibility. If a student doesn't meet an acceptable standard, they need to know that more effort is required; rather than seeing this as crushing their confidence, you could see it as an opportunity to build resilience.

One of the biggest problems I have with a policy of no zeroes is that it is applied to everyone, regardless of effort or circumstance. If someone has a legitimate reason for needing an extension, or can demonstrate their learning in an alternative manner, I have no issue with adjusting my expectations to meet their needs, as long as their work meets the standard. But when someone misses class after class, hands nothing in, and then thinks its my job to create success for them, they need a wake up call. If they have earned a zero, they will get a zero.

[Mr.Canada]

Melanie_, your posts in this thread have been outstanding. I've been enjoying reading them from your educator pov. Excellent.

[kraychik]

You're right - and it's a failure on a few levels. One, we don't have enough subject matter experts in this field to have a good discussion on MLW. And two, the experts in the field haven't seen this as important enough to make a good effort to explain it to the public.

Right, because one needs to be an "expert" to understand that removing accountability from students for their performance, and by extension the entire educational establishment, is a BAD thing.

[kraychik]

Moonlight Graham, there is no need for such arbitrary grade policies. The situation really is very simple. State up front at the start of any course that if a student is unable to complete an assignment on time for a valid reason, they should speak in advance (if possible) with the instructor, and a reasonable accommodation will be worked out. For example, when I TA'd courses in university, students often had valid reasons for not being able to complete or submit an assignment on time. In these cases, it was almost always possible for them to submit it later, or to complete an alternative assignment instead, and to receive full credit for the work. We did everything possible to give students the opportunity to do the work and demonstrate their ability.

Now, there were of course students who simply chose not to do assignments without any reason, or chose not to speak with myself or the professor about their failure to submit assignments. And in that case they most certainly got big fat zeros, and fully deserved them. In such cases, there is absolutely no reason to give any grade besides a zero.

Sad thing is, just having TA'd for 2 years as a grad student, I've probably done more teaching than our fellow troll "socialist" will do in his lifetime.

Hang on, let's confer with Michael Hardner to see if you have enough expertise to comment on this story. Before I listen to someone I need to see credentials.

[kraychik]

I understand the general goal of a "no zeroes" policy. I agree that a student not handing in a few assignments or missing tests can be a behavioral issue, and often there can be problems at home that can affect a student's performance.

Great idea, let's extend that to the workplace. If I don't show up to work, don't fulfil responsibilities, or otherwise fall short of what's expected of me, there should be a "no zero policy". Why? Because my failures at work may be the result of behavioural issues, or problems at home. What a great standard to expect of students.

I propose this "no zero" policy instead: if an assignment/test isn't completed, the student receives a mark of 50% (essentially a failing grade, but still a lot better than a zero) OR the student receives a mark that is 10% lower than the lowest mark among the students in the class who actually completed the assignment/test, whichever mark is lower.

Wow.

This way the student is punished for a non-completion, but receives a grade that makes catching up with classmates not as difficult as a zero.

Unfortunately, people like you are formulating educational policies in our societies. This is exactly like soccer leagues for children no longer keeping score.

[kraychik]

There may well be an intelligent defense of this policy to be made.

I wish someone would make it.

Of course, because you're more concerned with the leftist perspective "winning" than actually addressing the issue honestly. A "no-zeroes" policy is prima facie ridiculous. You must be another moderate centrist only concerned with pragmatic solutions like Michael Hardner.

[Michael Hardner]

Hang on, let's confer with Michael Hardner to see if you have enough expertise to comment on this story. Before I listen to someone I need to see credentials.

Right, because one needs to be an "expert" to understand that removing accountability from students for their performance, and by extension the entire educational establishment, is a BAD thing.

Well, we do have education experts designing the curriculum don't we ? If we're just going to poll parents as to what should be taught, maybe we should just be talking about axing those positions at the provincial and school board levels ?

[kraychik]

Well, we do have education experts designing the curriculum don't we ? If we're just going to poll parents as to what should be taught, maybe we should just be talking about axing those positions at the provincial and school board levels ?

Things would be much better if more control was transferred to the parents over education. Consider voucher systems, which would empower parents and increase school accountability for student performance. Although this is somewhat tangential.

It's just so funny what a caricature of a leftist you are, though. You refuse to actually think until an "expert" tells you what to think. Hilariously, it's the "experts" that probably initiated this ridiculous "no-zeroes" policy, masquerading the blatant stupidity with "expertise".

[Michael Hardner]

Things would be much better if more control was transferred to the parents over education. Consider voucher systems, which would empower parents and increase school accountability for student performance. Although this is somewhat tangential.

Ok - but if such experts still exist then presumably you agree that they need to do a better job of communicating their decisions ?

It's just so funny what a caricature of a leftist you are, though. You refuse to actually think until an "expert" tells you what to think. Hilariously, it's the "experts" that probably initiated this ridiculous "no-zeroes" policy, masquerading the blatant stupidity with "expertise".

So... again, you seem to be agreeing with my post ?

I don't care about this issue in particular, but I get irritated when reactionary attitudes (from right or left) are bandied about without apology. There's a system in place to decide such things. Just saying "I agree with the teacher" begs the question "What do you want to change ?".

Did you happen to read that I disagree with the no zeros policy ? If I had a stake in the discussion, and I cared enough, I would go through the process to see what needs to be done.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Lol. I promote the Catholic system because I was raised in the public system and my children are now in the Catholic system so I have first hand knowledge on both systems. Can you say the same thing? Or are you just bashing it because of second, third and fourth hand info?

Ever considered that it's just a difference between then, and now?

[Mr.Canada]

It was Mike Harris who brought in no zeros in Ontario but it's gone now.

[Wild Bill]

Well, we do have education experts designing the curriculum don't we ? If we're just going to poll parents as to what should be taught, maybe we should just be talking about axing those positions at the provincial and school board levels ?

"Axing those positions"? What a fantastic idea!

Michael, I am behind you 100%! Get rid of the deadwood!

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, I am behind you 100%! Get rid of the deadwood!

Thank you for at least expressing an opinion. You are a poster worth discussing with, but I don't feel that way about others on this thread.

[kraychik]

"Axing those positions"? What a fantastic idea!

Michael, I am behind you 100%! Get rid of the deadwood!

But Wild Bill, what ever would we do without the experts?! Heaven forbid we actually make decisions for ourselves! Parents can't possibly be trusted with making decisions in the best interests of their children in a more decentralised environment where schools are actually held accountable for their performance! Life's too complicated to not have important decisions made for us by "experts"!

[BubberMiley]

The problem with zeros is that if you base assessment on a percentage system, you create a mathematical problem because the cut point for pass/fail is 50 percent. As a result, a zero creates a disproportionate scale over other marks assigned. This can make it nearly impossible to pass a course and kill students' motivation for the rest of the year.

So, surprisingly, it's not really a "right/left" issue (as some of the younger sociopaths on this forum view everything). There are lots of ways to fairly assess students without killing their chances of ever succeeding. The best way is to simply give the student an I for Incomplete and give him or her an opportunity to work towards making it complete. This may require more work from the teacher, but the student gets a chance to successfully complete the course, which is what they're there for to begin with.

Edited September 28, 2012 by BubberMiley

[BubberMiley]

Another problem with the zero is that once a student has a achieved 50% in a course, they can decide they've passed, they're done, and just accept the zeros from that point on. You're left with a kid with no motivation who is showing up (because attendance is mandatory) but not doing any more work.

If they receive an "I" for those remaining assignments instead of a zero, they're obligated to complete the work. Otherwise, they get an "I" for the course.

So the knee-jerk reaction that this somehow makes it easier on the students is a sign that, once again, people on this board often speak about things they know nothing about.

[Jiblethead]

I thought the point of school was to prepare people for life after school. Something called the real world. In the real world, if I don't show up to work, i make ZERO dollars, and most likely get fired. Students need to learn things the hard way sometimes, while I was in school (i graduated high school in 07) I got several zeros for not completing an assignment, or not handing it in on time. This motivated me to do the next assignment, because i had to make up for the zero. We can't go soft on children, they need to learn to take responsibility for their mistakes sooner rather than later.

[GostHacked]

Managed to talk to the teachers in my family, we have two, and both disagree with the no zero policy.

[Guest Manny]

Managed to talk to the teachers in my family, we have two, and both disagree with the no zero policy.

Yeah but what do they know? They need to consult with the experts.

[BubberMiley]

This motivated me to do the next assignment, because i had to make up for the zero. We can't go soft on children, they need to learn to take responsibility for their mistakes sooner rather than later.

What if the zero acts like a zero and makes it mathematically impossible (or extremely unlikely) to create an average of 50% after it's been assigned? Your motivation is gone to do the next assignment, and you can "go soft" for the rest of the year.

Assigning an "I" gives kids the opportunity to take responsibility for their mistakes sooner rather than later.

But yes, there are lots of teachers in favour of the zero. That's because it requires less work on their part.

[socialist]

What if the zero acts like a zero and makes it mathematically impossible (or extremely unlikely) to create an average of 50% after it's been assigned? Your motivation is gone to do the next assignment, and you can "go soft" for the rest of the year.

Assigning an "I" gives kids the opportunity to take responsibility for their mistakes sooner rather than later.

But yes, there are lots of teachers in favour of the zero. That's because it requires less work on their part.

What if a learner never does an assignment? Should they just get an incomplete that will have no effect on his final grade?