bleeding heart Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 Riiight. They're going to say "Do you wish to accept God's holy judgement or do you reject Allah, reject his blessed prophet Muhammed's Koran, and embrace infidel justice instead? There would be enormous peer and family pressure on any immigrant Muslim woman to accept whatever the Imam says. She is not really free to choose. Well, aside from your slight error that Omar Khadr is not a woman, I agree with...oh, wait. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
bleeding heart Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) ..dp Edited October 4, 2012 by bleeding heart Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
bleeding heart Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 You know, in a riot, 90% of the people are actually not doing anything but standing around and watching, providing cover by their presence. They're not burning anything or breaking into anything, or attacking anyone, but if they weren't there, the actual rioters couldn't get away with much. In that same way does the Muslim world provide cover for the extremists by accepting much of what they say, by supporting much of their stated goals, and by their dedication to the belief that every word in the Koran is the absolute and incontrovertible word of God. So while they might not be altogether comfortable with the more violent acts of the Islamists there isn't nearly enough disagreement with the proclamations and desires of those Islamists as I would want to see. And yes, that includes in Canada, where so far as I know, ALL religious leaders among the Muslims are foreign born. So when the Islamists among them make statements, most of the rest are, whether enthusiastically or reluctantly nodding their heads in agreement. Ah, so most Muslims are, indeed, "the problem." Good stuff. I repeat: I remain unafraid. And that's not boasting...most people are not afraid. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
DogOnPorch Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 Beware the fellow that claims he knows the majority opinion. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bleeding heart Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 Beware the fellow that claims he knows the majority opinion. True, I don't know; it's entirely impressionistic. Like I will state that most people don't believe there are faeries in rural Ireland. I could certainly wrong about this. But I'd be willing to bet on it, were the objective truth available. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 The Jews in Canada are a western people with modern concepts of justice. The Muslims in Canada are largely an Asian people with medieval concepts of justice. See the difference? I don't share your view that such groups can be tagged so easily. In any case, it has nothing to do with the point I was addressing - which is that other groups, ostensibly with more pull, wanted these changes. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 You know, in a riot, 90% of the people are actually not doing anything but standing around and watching, ... I'm glad that you ventured into the world of numbers here... but no one has put real numbers forward for Canada yet, and when paired with the other flawed arguments it doesn't convince us. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 I don't share your view that such groups can be tagged so easily. In any case, it has nothing to do with the point I was addressing - which is that other groups, ostensibly with more pull, wanted these changes. what western view of justice accepts ethnic cleansing by israeli as modern...if I recall canada took part in international sanctions against the South Africa apartheid regime when they attempted to do the same...okay I take all that back, ethnic cleansing is modern western justice Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Argus Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 I'm happy to be in the company of every single person on this planet, other than the one you look at in the mirror when you're getting ready in the morning. That sounds rather poorly-thought-out to me. There are any number of mass murderers and torturers you think are better company than I am because I think you're silly? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 Ah, so most Muslims are, indeed, "the problem." Muslims are the problem, yes. Good stuff. I repeat: I remain unafraid. And that's not boasting...most people are not afraid. I'm not 'afraid' of born-again Baptists from the rural south, but I'd still we rather not bring tens of thousands into my country every year. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 what western view of justice accepts ethnic cleansing by israeli as modern...if I recall canada took part in international sanctions against the South Africa apartheid regime when they attempted to do the same... okay I take all that back, ethnic cleansing is modern western justice Israel is involved in ethnic cleansing? Do you have some statistics on how far the Arab population has fallen over the last 20 odd years of this 'ethnic cleansing' campaign? Why, there must be hardly any Arabs left by now! Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Wild Bill Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 True, I don't know; it's entirely impressionistic. Like I will state that most people don't believe there are faeries in rural Ireland. I could certainly wrong about this. But I'd be willing to bet on it, were the objective truth available. Be very, very careful! I have it on good authority that in Ireland if you don't leave a bowl of beer out on your porch for the Little People, they bomb your pub! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
bleeding heart Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 Be very, very careful! I have it on good authority that in Ireland if you don't leave a bowl of beer out on your porch for the Little People, they bomb your pub! Good information, important to know. Thanks for the heads up. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
Moonlight Graham Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) Islamists ("theocratic Jihadists", as you labelled them) absolutely qualify as leftists, even if you do want to qualify them as conservatives, which is fair as long as we understand that the meaning of the term conservatism varies based on context. They're all about a massive state and dictating to the individual how he or she must live his or her life. There is no respect for individual freedom in such a society. So yes, they are leftists. Islamists are social conservatives to the extreme. On the economic side, they reject both free-market capitalism and communism as western inventions that aren't compatible with Islam, so I don't know how one would get a sense of left vs right economically. Not sure how Islamism supports a "massive state", especially a "leftist" egalitarian state. Both leftists and righties can have elements of wanting to dictate how one must run their lives (social conservatives = controlling: contraception/abortion, gay rights/marriage, women's rights, state surveillance/privacy, reducing secularism etc.) Edited October 4, 2012 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Rocky Road Posted October 4, 2012 Report Posted October 4, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Turkey "The secularization of Turkey started in the society during the last years of Ottoman Empire and it was the most prominent and most controversial feature of Atatürk's reforms. Under his leadership, the caliphate—the supreme politico-religious office of Islam, and symbol of the sultan's claim to world leadership of all Muslims—was abolished. The secular power of the religious authorities and functionaries was reduced and eventually eliminated. The religious foundations were nationalized, and religious education was restricted and for a time prohibited. The influential and popular mystical orders of the dervish brotherhoods (Tariqa) also were suppressed." Quote
kraychik Posted October 6, 2012 Author Report Posted October 6, 2012 Islamists are social conservatives to the extreme. On the economic side, they reject both free-market capitalism and communism as western inventions that aren't compatible with Islam, so I don't know how one would get a sense of left vs right economically. It depends where the Islamist is. Not all Muslim-majority countries have the same history with Islamism. Like bleeding heart, you don't realise that the values of conservatism vary depending on the time and place in which the conservative lives. Also like bleeding heart, you don't realise what the left and the right actually mean in basic terms. Put simply, the left wants more centralisation of control over the economy and the right wants less. Considering that Islamism is overtly hostile to many essential and basic components of free markets (for example, lending money and charging interest), Islamism is on-board with the broader left when it comes to economics. As far as the other sphere of freedom (the social sphere), Islamism prescribes detailed and extremely intrusive restrictions on the conduct of the individual, which again puts it the category of the left, which is all about eroding individual freedom to comply with state demands. Not sure how Islamism supports a "massive state", especially a "leftist" egalitarian state. Both leftists and righties can have elements of wanting to dictate how one must run their lives (social conservatives = controlling: contraception/abortion, gay rights/marriage, women's rights, state surveillance/privacy, reducing secularism etc.) Leftist states aren't egalitarian, that is just how they market themselves to vulnerable people like you via demagogues. As far as the attack in individual liberty, there is no comparison to be made between attacks from the right and attacks from the left. The left is all about crushing the individual under the guise of advancing the interests of the collective, and the right is the only thing standing in its way while willing lemmings like you are begging to be controlled. You're also parroting blatant lies, which you sincerely believe: since when do social conservatives want to control contraception? Since Obama started repeating that law in the past couple of years with the nonsensical "war on women"? There's also no such thing as "women's rights", although leftists like you love thinking in terms of non-existent "group rights". Quote
kraychik Posted October 6, 2012 Author Report Posted October 6, 2012 what western view of justice accepts ethnic cleansing by israeli as modern...if I recall canada took part in international sanctions against the South Africa apartheid regime when they attempted to do the same... okay I take all that back, ethnic cleansing is modern western justice Wow, another socialist who hates Jews. I totally didn't see that coming... Quote
bud Posted October 6, 2012 Report Posted October 6, 2012 (edited) There was a protest at the American consulate in Toronto from Muslims who demanded an end to freedom of speech and expression, while also finding a few moments to attack Israel and Zionism with some thinly-veiled anti-Semitism. Why is this important? It reveals how irresponsible immigration policies import people who subscribe to a set of values antithetical to Canadian values of freedom. Couple that with "multiculturalism" policies that actually encourage people to cling to these anti-Canadian values, and you've got a recipe for cultural destruction. these groups of muslims are looking to censor freedom of expression because they don't believe everything should be covered by free speech. some jews in europe actually succeeded in pushing to censor freedom of expression because they don't believe everything should be covered by free speech. Laws against Holocaust denial are european countries irresponsible for allowing jews who subscribe to a set of values antithetical to the western values of freedom to live in their countries? Edited October 6, 2012 by bud Quote http://whoprofits.org/
DogOnPorch Posted October 6, 2012 Report Posted October 6, 2012 some jews in europe actually succeeded in pushing to censor freedom of expression because they don't believe everything should be covered by free speech. Laws against Holocaust denial That you think it was Jews who passed laws regarding the Holocaust shows you're truly living in dream land. Describe which Jews in Lithuania (made Jews free during the War) passed the laws there, for example. Or Germany...or Austria...or Hungary....or...... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted October 6, 2012 Report Posted October 6, 2012 what western view of justice accepts ethnic cleansing by israeli as modern...if I recall canada took part in international sanctions against the South Africa apartheid regime when they attempted to do the same... okay I take all that back, ethnic cleansing is modern western justice Your point is to Argus, not me. I was replying to him. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
jbg Posted October 7, 2012 Report Posted October 7, 2012 The only difference is that we are inviting this immigration, bringing it upon ourselves, whereas the natives did not. We have the power to shape policy to protect ourselves, but the natives had no real options. And if we go the way of the natives, which we surely will if we continue as we are, we'll have no one to blame but ourselves.I generally agree with the rest of your post.However, the line of argument in the quoted portions is commonly used by the right wing. There are several flaws. For one thing, both of our countries crave the relatively unskilled immigrants that do arrive. For another, is it really possible to keep the doors barred against such a huge, miserable mass of humanity trying to get in? I fear that political correctness and guilt complexes make that impossible. In theory we deport our illegals. Both of our countries' "due process" considerations make that process ponderous and impractical on any large scale. I think that any honest conservative (note the small "c") candidate should advocate a massive funding increase for immigration bureaucracies so that we can rapidly process legal immigrants into permanent status residents and/or citizens, and deport the ones that don't belong here legally. The former is necessary to protect legal immigrants from discrimination and exploitation. And the latter in order to make our borders real, not illusory. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted October 7, 2012 Report Posted October 7, 2012 He's incapable of serious discussion, and he gets mad when adults carry on in dialogue within which he cannot participate. The analogy I always use to describe people like him is the screaming child at the dinner table. Black Dog is actually usually rather thoughtful. His conduct on this thread defies comprehension compared to his usual ability to discourse rationally. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted October 7, 2012 Report Posted October 7, 2012 Muslim women, by and large, do not have the right to choose not to accept it. They can, and be honor murdered in the process. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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