Would national daycare equal more Canadian babies?

[wyly]

You mean slavery? Kinda different from voluntary immigration.

it's still intigration and 200 some years later it still isn't done...

Does North America have any legitimate and popular political parties with explicitly racist platforms? How strong is the far-right here compared to over there, especially Eastern Europe? How do we compare in terms of antisemitism? What North American countries have laws like France's hijab law that explicitly target "foreigners"?

ya it's called the republican party in the US, deliberately targeting blacks to be disenfranchised in the presidential election is blatant ...and we have our wildrose party...Quebec banned the niqab and burqa...

In Canada and the U.S. you need only be born here to be a citizen. So tell me how your anecdote shows Europe is better at assimilating people when their laws seem designed for the express purpose of making citizenship difficult for foreigners to acquire?

hmm maybe you should read the Canadian Citizenship Act...section 3 (2) of act reads--- Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply to a person if, at the time of his birth, neither of his parents was a citizen or lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence so it appears our birth/citizenship laws are the same as germany's ...and some US states are attempting to repeal "anchor babies" laws...

the law is in place to prevent people from circumventing immigration procedures...sneak a pregnant woman into the country, have a baby thereby gaining admittance for the entire family bypassing the entire immigration procedure...

Edited September 21, 2012 by wyly

[Wild Bill]

So the guy's qualifications were excellent, your boss wanted to hire him, but didn't do so because he was a visible minority. He didn't hire him because he thought that maybe, perhaps, someday, a problem would arise that they couldn't resolve, and this guy just might, perhaps, accuse him of racism. And you don't see that as racist?

You are twisting the situation to make it into something it wasn't. I presume this is so you can set yourself up as heroic, I don't know.

He didn't want to hire him because there had been a number of instances at the time in our industry of people from his country playing the race card if they were let go. My boss didn't want to take the chance of being dragged into something like that.

And it wasn't race, it was culture! People from that area are caucasians.

We already had visible minorities in our crew, but they were culturally Canadian. One friend of mine and workmate was of Chinese descent. She was from Alberta and her family was 5th generation at least! She had a mouth like a sailor and a great sense of humour. Often American reps from our suppliers would be up for training meetings. Some would make the mistake of thinking from her face that she must be a recent Vietnamese immigrant or whatever. She would put on a fake accent and play along. The rest of us would be in stitches.

I was there. Not you! Don't try to twist it into something it wasn't. It was simply a pragmatic move against the negative consequences of a politically correct system.

Frankly, your response proves to me once again that my boss had done the right thing!

[Melanie_]

people born never had to make the same commitment as immigrants it's very very difficult thing to do, move to a new country where you may have no friends, no family, no job, don't speak the language...native born never have to make any commitments to their country...

I agree. So often we hear complaints about how immigrants don't "adapt" to Canada, with no acknowledgement of how many ways they have already adapted, and continue to adapt daily. And if they find friends that share their home culture, people criticize them, without stopping to think about what they would do in the same situation. If I were to move to the Punjab, and find some English speaking Canadians there, I would almost certainly want to associate with them. That wouldn't mean I didn't want to be there, just that it would be nice to be able to communicate in my own language sometimes, with people who share, to some degree, my culture.

[Shady]

So let me see if I understand this. You feel the right to decide who constitutes a 'real Canadian' and yet are indignant and insulting towards other people who also choose that right for themselves....

Because your criteria are so much more noble?

I think it's over his head that he's behaving in the same fashion as the poster he's complaining about.

[Melanie_]

You are twisting the situation to make it into something it wasn't. I presume this is so you can set yourself up as heroic, I don't know.

He didn't want to hire him because there had been a number of instances at the time in our industry of people from his country playing the race card if they were let go. My boss didn't want to take the chance of being dragged into something like that.

And it wasn't race, it was culture! People from that area are caucasians.

We already had visible minorities in our crew, but they were culturally Canadian. One friend of mine and workmate was of Chinese descent. She was from Alberta and her family was 5th generation at least! She had a mouth like a sailor and a great sense of humour. Often American reps from our suppliers would be up for training meetings. Some would make the mistake of thinking from her face that she must be a recent Vietnamese immigrant or whatever. She would put on a fake accent and play along. The rest of us would be in stitches.

I was there. Not you! Don't try to twist it into something it wasn't. It was simply a pragmatic move against the negative consequences of a politically correct system.

Frankly, your response proves to me once again that my boss had done the right thing!

No, it was racism. He didn't hire him because of the conduct of other people who shared some of his characteristics. He was judged on other people's actions, regardless of his own merits.

[wyly]

I didn't say otherwise....you implied that Canada was a last resort that will accept anyone.

that wasn't my intent...there's nothing wrong with canada as a destination, I'm trying to dispel the myth that many canadians and americans may have that we're the ultimate destination...

[wyly]

He didn't want to hire him because there had been a number of instances at the time in our industry of people from his country playing the race card if they were let go. My boss didn't want to take the chance of being dragged into something like that.

you quite clearly implied you never had any first hand knowledge of previous problems, you know only what your boss related to you, you don't know the details of any previous incidents...

and it's ridiculous logic because I know canadian born employees use our labour grievance laws as much as anyone...if your boss's logic were applied equally to every demographic group that ever had a job grievance his company would have zero employes, he'd have to not hire himself as well...

incidentally I worked for a boss just like that only his issue was refusing to hire women...he was my brother

[wyly]

If I were to move to the Punjab, and find some English speaking Canadians there, I would almost certainly want to associate with them. That wouldn't mean I didn't want to be there, just that it would be nice to be able to communicate in my own language sometimes, with people who share, to some degree, my culture.

of course...as much as we want them to integrate how many of us go out of our way to socialize with them...and it's only natural they want to socialize with people who speak their language and share their customs, my parents did the same...if you went to europe you would find expat communities of canadians and americans socializing with each other, they even have expat stores where they find food from home...but it generally ends with the second generation who fully integrate with the community...

[Wild Bill]

No, it was racism. He didn't hire him because of the conduct of other people who shared some of his characteristics. He was judged on other people's actions, regardless of his own merits.

Well, if that's racism then I guess he was against all white people. As I said, the job applicant was caucausian

The applicant in question was from Iran, having escaped during the fall of the Shah.

Your definitions seem too academic for me. Cultural differences are quite real and in real world situations if you ignore them you find yourself in trouble.

When I was a teenager I hung out at a local coffee shop run by a Greek immigrant. He would hire local girls, most of whom I and my crowd would know from school.

Almost right away those girls that worked the night shift ran into "cultural differences". Many older men from the owner's family would also hang out in the shop. They would watch how we Canadian kids interacted. Often a waitress would laugh and joke with us. They might sit in our lap for a moment or give a guy a quick kiss.

We never thought anything of it. It wasn't that big a deal in our culture. However, to the Greek guys it was a different story. One of the Greek girls who worked there explained to me that in her home culture, there were only two kinds of women - those you would marry and sluts!

To these men, the Canadian girls could only be sluts, because of the way they acted with us. So these Greek men started treating them as such, trying to molest them back in the kitchen during the evening and night shifts! It got so bad that the local cops began to come in from time to time, just to try to prevent problems.

One girl refused to believe the warnings from the others. She was a bit of a "politically correct" type herself and flatly refused to believe it was happening. That is, until she was attacked.

Some of us guys happened to come in and heard her cries. We stormed into the kitchen and the fellow backed off. Just then a cop came in and we told him what had happened. The Greek fellow was dragged away.

He seemed genuinely bewildered at being arrested!

Eventually the Greek owner couldn't get any staff and was forced to sell his business. To me, it was an early life lesson about differences between cultures.

My point is that to deny cultural differences can actually be dangerous. All cultures are NOT the same!

A more modern example would be Roma gypsies coming here from Hungary. Of course they are not all trouble but it is one thing for you or me to take a chance. What if you have to worry about your business? What if any losses could conceivably hurt the business, causing other workers to lose their jobs? Can a manager take the chance?

Sometimes, I believe he or she SHOULD take the chance! If things are fine, great! If there are bad ramifications, that's fine too. I have always believed that suffering from mistakes is the best teacher.

I just don't care to have to share a lesson that I myself have already learned.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Melanie_]

Do you think the potential employee was treated fairly? Did he deserve to be held accountable for the actions of people he didn't even know, but who shared his country of origin?

[Signals.Cpl]

I don't think that people not born here could love this country as much as I do. That is a problem. We need more Canadians who will feel a sense of pride in being Canadian, just Canadian. Not a hyphenated perversion of a Canadian.

I see your bullshit, and I raise you all those not born here who have served in Canada's military, continue to serve, and will serve in the future and to those who have died as a result of that service. I think signing my name on the dotted line of a check for an amount of up to and including my life means I have some deep feelings for this country. I don't need someone like you to come and tell me that I "could not love this country as much as you" because I was born somewhere else, actions speak louder than words, what are your actions saying?

[Wild Bill]

Do you think the potential employee was treated fairly? Did he deserve to be held accountable for the actions of people he didn't even know, but who shared his country of origin?

I don't really know! Being fair to that "potential employee" was not my responsibility, nor was it that of my boss.

Our responsibility was to the company that was paying us! We were responsible to make it as profitable as possible, in order to give income and security to all of us who worked there. In this case, there was a very real chance of an expensive problem.

If my boss took a chance and things went wrong, all of us would have been hurt. The company was not some huge Monsanto but just a small business. Who would cover the loss? What if we simply couldn't afford it?

It's a real world, Melanie. If YOU happened to have been the boss and you got the company into trouble, do you think any of us that lost our jobs would have thanked you? Or even if the company simply couldn't afford to give us raises, would we have thanked you?

This was a very real possibility, not some academic argument. Perhaps your own situation has always been so secure that you just can't relate, I don't know.

Anyhow, I had seen it happen to a couple of competitors. I was extremely glad that if it had to happen, it happened to a competitor!

[dre]

I don't think that people not born here could love this country as much as I do. That is a problem. We need more Canadians who will feel a sense of pride in being Canadian, just Canadian. Not a hyphenated perversion of a Canadian.

I dont think thats a problem at all. The last thing we need is nationalistic sycophants, patriots, and flag wavers.

People who idolize the state are dangerous, and people that are obsessed with national symbols tend ignore other important things. People should not "love" their country. At the end of the day Canada is a piece of realestate with a bunch of other people living on it, and an elected national government. People should not treat such constructs with reverence, and they should not wrap themselves in the governments symbols. Being a truly "good citizen" is a more solemn duty than that.

[Wild Bill]

I dont think thats a problem at all. The last thing we need is nationalistic sycophants, patriots, and flag wavers.

People who idolize the state are dangerous, and people that are obsessed with national symbols tend ignore other important things. People should not "love" their country. At the end of the day Canada is a piece of realestate with a bunch of other people living on it, and an elected national government. People should not treat such constructs with reverence, and they should not wrap themselves in the governments symbols. Being a truly "good citizen" is a more solemn duty than that.

I disagree, Dr. Dre. Patriotism and pride are a part of human nature and serve a valid psychological purpose.

We should be proud of our country and our culture! We should believe it is worth something. We should believe it is better than all others and strive constantly to recognize negatives and try to correct them in favour of positives!

Otherwise, what is our country and our culture truly worth? We should have standards that children are taught and that all citizens should try to emulate. People need milestones and goalposts, examples of proper behavior.

The culture we received from Britain during the Victorian Age spawned an era of development and advancement in science, technology, medicine and living standard that no other culture on the planet can claim. Even the Americans and those European countries that prospered at the same time copied it.

Take that away and we become merely a colourless, drab assortment of amoral drones.

I would not want to be one myself and I certainly would not wish such on my children.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Wild Bill

[dre]

I disagree, Dr. Dre. Patriotism and pride are a part of human nature and serve a valid psychological purpose.

We should be proud of our country and our culture! We should believe it is worth something. We should believe it is better than all others and strive constantly to recognize negatives and try to correct them in favour of positives!

Otherwise, what is our country and our culture truly worth? We should have standards that children are taught and that all citizens should try to emulate. People need milestones and goalposts, examples of proper behavior.

The culture we received from Britain during the Victorian Age spawned an era of development and advancement in science, technology, medicine and living standard that no other culture on the planet can claim. Even the Americans and those European countries that prospered at the same time copied it.

Take that away and we become merely a colourless, drab assortment of amoral drones.

I would not want to be one myself and I certainly would not wish such on my children.

I disagree, Dr. Dre. Patriotism and pride are a part of human nature and serve a valid psychological purpose.

If its really part of human nature then we dont need to talk about it, and governments should not need to promote it. Nationalism is essentially a mild form of mental retardation. It clouds your judgement and makes it impossible to make real objective judgements. Governments love it because it essentially turns people into sheep, and behind every tyranical regime is a bunch of flag waving anthen singing sports fans.

Otherwise, what is our country and our culture truly worth?

Its truly worth what its truly worth and nationalism over time will probably make it worth less. Your country is the land you live on, and the people that you interact with. Its not a flag or an anthem, or a pissing contest against someone that lives on some other piece of dirt.

We should be proud of our country and our culture!

Why? We should be neurtral. Proud of what we do well by our own standards and ashamed of what we dont. We should look at ourselves objectively and try to improve. And we should be SUSPICIOUS of the state, and its never ending appeals to nationalism and patriotism.

[Melanie_]

I don't really know! Being fair to that "potential employee" was not my responsibility, nor was it that of my boss.

Our responsibility was to the company that was paying us! We were responsible to make it as profitable as possible, in order to give income and security to all of us who worked there. In this case, there was a very real chance of an expensive problem.

If my boss took a chance and things went wrong, all of us would have been hurt. The company was not some huge Monsanto but just a small business. Who would cover the loss? What if we simply couldn't afford it?

It's a real world, Melanie. If YOU happened to have been the boss and you got the company into trouble, do you think any of us that lost our jobs would have thanked you? Or even if the company simply couldn't afford to give us raises, would we have thanked you?

This was a very real possibility, not some academic argument. Perhaps your own situation has always been so secure that you just can't relate, I don't know.

Anyhow, I had seen it happen to a couple of competitors. I was extremely glad that if it had to happen, it happened to a competitor!

You are trying to find a way to justify discriminatory hiring practices, but it just doesn't work. Saying "what if" can go both ways - what if your boss had taken a chance on this guy, and found him to be the best employee he ever had? What if he never had cause to fire him, so there was never any need to find out if he would have played the race card or not? It seems like your boss took a very pessimistic approach to business.

By your logic, no one should ever hire anyone who shared this guy's culture, since they are all likely get the company into trouble. Even if someone has spent years achieving the best qualifications, and does their job well, they are too big a risk. So should they all just go back to where they came from?

[GostHacked]

I'm curious about this. Would more government incentives such as national subsidized daycare and more added benefits equal more Canadians having more babies? We have to find a way to make having babies more rewarding so that we can rely less on outside sources for our ongoing shortage. I don't think that people not born here could love this country as much as I do. That is a problem. We need more Canadians who will feel a sense of pride in being Canadian, just Canadian. Not a hyphenated perversion of a Canadian.

I would bet your parents, or grandparents were immigrants. Do you hate them too?

I am 2nd gen Canadian on my dad's side (origins Germany)

I am 5th gen Canadian on my mom's side (origins UK)

[Wild Bill]

By your logic, no one should ever hire anyone who shared this guy's culture, since they are all likely get the company into trouble. Even if someone has spent years achieving the best qualifications, and does their job well, they are too big a risk. So should they all just go back to where they came from?

Of course! Isn't it obvious?

The boss had a huge heap of applications from people who were not in a category that could cause trouble. He had ONE that could!

Staying or returning was irrelevant to the welfare of the business.

You should also consider that cultures change over time. As little as 10 years later and that same applicant would likely have been hired. The cultures to worry about had changed, as far as the job market here in Canada. Different cultures became the worry.

I think this is because we tend to encourage cultures to keep to themselves when they arrive here, removing reasons to assimilate. Not surprisingly, people in those cultures would tend to communicate mostly with each other. They would share ideas, including negative ones as to "scams".

Ask your insurance agent which areas of your city are considered of a higher risk for fraud, and why. It's not racism but merely statistics. It is not based on race but on culture.

You seem to have trouble grasping the difference. Race is an outmoded concept and in modern times is really irrelevant.

[wyly]

bill is pushing a racist agenda that has no basis in reality...just another Mr Canada blaming the government to cover his agenda instead of himself...

[carepov]

Nationalism is essentially a mild form of mental retardation.

This is the best one-liner I have heard in a long time!

It clouds your judgement and makes it impossible to make real objective judgements. Governments love it because it essentially turns people into sheep, and behind every tyranical regime is a bunch of flag waving anthen singing sports fans.

Its truly worth what its truly worth and nationalism over time will probably make it worth less. Your country is the land you live on, and the people that you interact with. Its not a flag or an anthem, or a pissing contest against someone that lives on some other piece of dirt.

Why? We should be neurtral. Proud of what we do well by our own standards and ashamed of what we dont. We should look at ourselves objectively and try to improve. And we should be SUSPICIOUS of the state, and its never ending appeals to nationalism and patriotism.

Exactly! I will add - how can one be proud of being born in a certain country - as if this is some kind of accomplishment?

All this said, I am very thankful for all the hard work and sacrifices that people have made, and are making today.

[Wild Bill]

bill is pushing a racist agenda that has no basis in reality...just another Mr Canada blaming the government to cover his agenda instead of himself...

Ad hominem, ad hominem.

Yeah, sure! Racism, that must be it!

After all, if I disagree with your POV, what other explanation could there be?

[wyly]

This is the best one-liner I have heard in a long time!

Exactly! I will add - how can one be proud of being born in a certain country - as if this is some kind of accomplishment?

All this said, I am very thankful for all the hard work and sacrifices that people have made, and are making today.

yay i'm not alone!...I've no extra pride in being canadian but I'm not ashamed of it either I see myself as no better or worse than citizens of other nations... overt patriotism/nationalism should be considered a mental health issue, it's dangerous and is ranks right up there with militant religions for causing hatred, death and destruction...it serves no purpose but to control the masses for political means, it's an artificial tribalism...

[wyly]

Ad hominem, ad hominem.

Yeah, sure! Racism, that must be it!

After all, if I disagree with your POV, what other explanation could there be?

na you're disguising it, blaming non existent government labour laws for discriminatory hiring practices... you supply anecdotal hearsay evidence with no citations to actual incidents or government policy...it's "my boss said so, so it must be true" but that's BS I've been in the work force as long as you and I know as well as you how people let go, all of them legal and offer no recourse to the person being let go...being an immigrant gets them no special benefits... Edited September 21, 2012 by wyly

[guyser]

Ask your insurance agent which areas of your city are considered of a higher risk for fraud, and why. It's not racism but merely statistics. It is not based on race but on culture.

Well, which is it?

Statistics or culture?

It is of course Stats, insurers for the most part dont have info on the culture of a specific region

[Canuckistani]

It is of course Stats, insurers for the most part dont have info on the culture of a specific region

Why don't they? My newspaper just published a detailed map of the ethic mix of various areas where I live. The insurers don't read newspapers?

That said, on the whole immigrants have lower crime rates than native born Canadians. (Except immigrants from Latin America/Caribbean) And native born Canadians have lower crime rates than actual Natives.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Canuckistani