Sandra Fluke

[kimmy]

You realise in Canada most private insurance companies cover the cost of birth-control right? That's all she's asking for.

Next time Jerry and Shady are watching the Megyn Kelly Patriot Hour, they should remind themselves that Fox News' insurance plan pays for Megyn's contraceptives.

-k

[jbg]

Yeah, we get it. You're American, so you don't like helping out your fellow citizens financially.

I prefer to subsidize with money that a person can decide how to use. I don't want to subsidize either sex or abstinence. Or for that matter the old dime telephone call.

[jbg]

Does it ever occur to you people that the cost to you of paying for someone else's birth control (and here I'm playing along since we all know that the state isn't paying for Sandra Fluke's birth control) likely pales to insignificance when compared to the costs of an unplanned pregnancy or abortion? Of course that doesn't occur to you because that doesn't sound as interesting as talking about all the dirty, dirty sex you think these dirty, dirty girls are having.

Hate to say it but you're actually making a good point. I guess I have to reconsider my last post.

[kimmy]

Does it ever occur to you people that the cost to you of paying for someone else's birth control (and here I'm playing along since we all know that the state isn't paying for Sandra Fluke's birth control) likely pales to insignificance when compared to the costs of an unplanned pregnancy or abortion? Of course that doesn't occur to you because that doesn't sound as interesting as talking about all the dirty, dirty sex you think these dirty, dirty girls are having.

As always, you make an excellent point.

To add one more thing: there always seems to be this assumption that we're talking about single chicks who are sleeping around, or college girls, or so on.

But we're also talking about married couples who already have kids and can't afford to have any more kids. Abstinence? Is "Not tonight, honey, I have a headache" supposed to turn into "Not for about 18 years, honey, we've got kids"?

-k

[Bonam]

As always, you make an excellent point.

To add one more thing: there always seems to be this assumption that we're talking about single chicks who are sleeping around, or college girls, or so on.

But we're also talking about married couples who already have kids and can't afford to have any more kids. Abstinence? Is "Not tonight, honey, I have a headache" supposed to turn into "Not for about 18 years, honey, we've got kids"?

I'm all for the wide availability of birth control and people being able to plan their families and have children voluntarily. I also strongly support women's rights to have abortions if they so choose. However, why is it the government's role to tell insurance companies that they must cover birth control methods? And, if some birth control methods are covered, why not all birth control methods, including condoms for example?

Now, I do understand Black Dog's point, and it is certainly a valid economic consideration. But why then are condoms not included? Certainly covering these would even further reduce unwanted pregnancies, right? Not to mention reducing the rate of transmission of STIs, which I'm sure also would be cheaper than providing medical care for these diseases.

On an unrelated note, "I have a headache" is about the worst excuse ever. The chemicals released by the brain during sex nullify headaches more effectively than many analgesics.

[eyeball]

But why then are condoms not included?

Because such an overt act of submission to such a stupid idea would only inspire more stupid expectations that authorities submit to more stupid ideas.

Best to simply abort it right here and now in the bud so it doesn't breed any more.

[kimmy]

I'm all for the wide availability of birth control and people being able to plan their families and have children voluntarily. I also strongly support women's rights to have abortions if they so choose. However, why is it the government's role to tell insurance companies that they must cover birth control methods?

As I said earlier in the thread, that's an entirely reasonable point to argue, and I'd love to get into it, just as soon as Jerry and Kid Me-Too tell us how they feel about Catholic institutions paying money to give men erections.

To me, the answer relates to something else I posted earlier in the thread. If you are going to have a mandate, then there has to be standards attached to the mandate. You can't issue a requirement that everyone purchase insurance, and then consider a plan that pays for 50% of one Bandaid per year to adequately satisfy the mandate or the whole exercise becomes completely meaningless.

And if you grant religious exemptions to every Moishe, Jeshua, or Muhammad who comes along, you're undermining the purpose as well. As I said earlier, only slightly facetiously... if you grant religious exemptions "then it's only a matter of time before people start selling a share of their company to the Church of Christ Scientists so that their insurance only has to cover splints and prayer."

To paraphrase Mr Miyagi: Mandate do "yes" or mandate do "no." Mandate do "guess so" ...squish like grape.

-k

[Bonam]

As I said earlier in the thread, that's an entirely reasonable point to argue, and I'd love to get into it, just as soon as Jerry and Kid Me-Too tell us how they feel about Catholic institutions paying money to give men erections.

To me, the answer relates to something else I posted earlier in the thread. If you are going to have a mandate, then there has to be standards attached to the mandate. You can't issue a requirement that everyone purchase insurance, and then consider a plan that pays for 50% of one Bandaid per year to adequately satisfy the mandate or the whole exercise becomes completely meaningless.

And if you grant religious exemptions to every Moishe, Jeshua, or Muhammad who comes along, you're undermining the purpose as well. As I said earlier, only slightly facetiously... if you grant religious exemptions "then it's only a matter of time before people start selling a share of their company to the Church of Christ Scientists so that their insurance only has to cover splints and prayer."

To paraphrase Mr Miyagi: Mandate do "yes" or mandate do "no." Mandate do "guess so" ...squish like grape.

-k

Agreed, I think granting religious exemptions would be BS, too. And I agree there should be minimum standards for insurance plans, as well.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Bonam

[Bitsy]

I have no problem with sexual activity. I do have a problem with being asked to pay for others' recreation.

My wife and I bought and paid for her diaphragm and BCP's ourselves. Ditto condoms. We didn't shake a can so we could enjoy ourselves.

Are you actually saying that you do not have health insurance? Or are you saying that you did not submit these expenses, minus the condoms, to your provider?

[Black Dog]

Now, I do understand Black Dog's point, and it is certainly a valid economic consideration. But why then are condoms not included? Certainly covering these would even further reduce unwanted pregnancies, right? Not to mention reducing the rate of transmission of STIs, which I'm sure also would be cheaper than providing medical care for these diseases.

Indeed, why not? That's certainly more valid use of the money, with actual public health outcomes, than the Viagra example.

As an aside, I'll never forget one of my first trips to the U.S. as an adult, going into a grocery store and seeing the wide variety of booze just sitting out in the open. Condoms, however, were kept behind the tills in locked cabinets.

[Guest American Woman]

As an aside, I'll never forget one of my first trips to the U.S. as an adult, going into a grocery store and seeing the wide variety of booze just sitting out in the open. Condoms, however, were kept behind the tills in locked cabinets.

And just so we're clear, that one grocery store sets the standard and represents how things are done in every store in America.* But pssstttt, condoms might be a bit easier and more tempting to "pocket" and shoplift than the wide variety of booze, which might have had something to do with the way that store did things.

*OK, I lied. In case you are unaware of it, some stores in the U.S. have condoms out in the open while booze is behind a counter.

Edited September 11, 2012 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

Now, I do understand Black Dog's point, and it is certainly a valid economic consideration. But why then are condoms not included? Certainly covering these would even further reduce unwanted pregnancies, right? Not to mention reducing the rate of transmission of STIs, which I'm sure also would be cheaper than providing medical care for these diseases.

The pill isn't covered by medical insurance for economic reasons; it's covered because it requires a prescription and a medical exam. When condoms require a prescription and medical exam, then they, too, should be covered by medical insurance policies.

[Black Dog]

And just so we're clear, that one grocery store sets the standard and represents how things are done in every store in America.*

It's called an anecdote. My god, you are as predictable as ol' Shady.

But pssstttt, condoms might be a bit easier and more tempting to "pocket" and shoplift than the wide variety of booze, which might have had something to do with the way that store did things.

You know, I seriously doubt that.

[Guest American Woman]

It's called an anecdote. My god, you are as predictable as ol' Shady.

Actually, it's called irrelevant. But as an aside, I'll never forget one of my first trips to Canada as an adult, going into a grocery store, and seeing no booze whatsoever.

You know, I seriously doubt that.

Right. Pocketing a pack of condoms is no easier than pocketing a fifth of booze. Both are just as easily slipped off the shelf, and both fit nicely in the pocket of a pair of jeans.

[Black Dog]

Actually, it's called irrelevant. But as an aside, I'll never forget one of my first trips to Canada as an adult, going into a grocery store, and seeing no booze whatsoever.

As irrelevant as your congenital nitpicking.

Right. Pocketing a pack of condoms is no easier than pocketing a fifth of booze. Both are just as easily slipped off the shelf, and both fit nicely in the pocket of a pair of jeans.

As someone who pinched the odd mickey in his youth, I know that it's not that hard. I also know I was a lot more interested in booze than rubbers because, well, it was easier to get drunk than laid.

[Guest American Woman]

As someone who pinched the odd mickey in his youth, I know that it's not that hard. I also know I was a lot more interested in booze than rubbers because, well, it was easier to get drunk than laid.

So you think your experience speaks for everyone, do you? But be that as it may, "not that hard" and "not as easy as" are two different things.* As I said, it's a bit easier to sneak a condom off the shelf and into the pocket of a pair of jeans than it is a fifth of booze.

*Cue the Black Dog "pedantic" Pavlovian response.

Edited September 11, 2012 by American Woman

[Black Dog]

So you think your experience speaks for everyone, do you?

For someone so anal retentive, you sure have a problem with basic reading comprehension. My experience is my experience: nowhere did I say anything otherwise.

But be that as it may, "not that hard" and "not as easy as" are two different things.* As I said, it's a bit easier to sneak a condom off the shelf and into the pocket of a pair of jeans than it is a fifth of booze.

A condom? Do they sell them as singles anywhere but in bar bathrooms? Maybe that's your only experience with them, but in grocery stores they usually come in large-ish packages.

*Cue the Black Dog "pedantic" Pavlovian response.

Stop being pedantic and I'll stop calling you pedantic. I don't expect that to happen because nitpicking and acting huffy when someone mentions something negative about your country are your only contributions to this board. So you're just going to have to deal with it.

[Guest American Woman]

For someone so anal retentive, you sure have a problem with basic reading comprehension. My experience is my experience: nowhere did I say anything otherwise.

Yet you used your experience as evidence to refute what I said regarding it being easier to slip a condom off the shelf and slip it in the pocket of one's jeans.

A condom? Do they sell them as singles anywhere but in bar bathrooms? Maybe that's your only experience with them, but in grocery stores they usually come in large-ish packages.

Maybe that's the only way you can buy them in Canada, but we're talking about the U.S., eh? One doesn't have to buy a year's supply in the U.S., and the rolls don't all come in large-ish packages.

Stop being pedantic and I'll stop calling you pedantic.

There's that Classic Black Dog response that one never tires of hearing. Over and over. And over. Like I said, a Black Dog Pavlovian response.

I don't expect that to happen because nitpicking and acting huffy when someone mentions something negative about your country are your only contributions to this board. So you're just going to have to deal with it.

So you read every single one of my posts, do you? I'm so flattered creeped out.

[Black Dog]

Yet you used your experience as evidence to refute what I said regarding it being easier to slip a condom off the shelf and slip it in the pocket of one's jeans.

No, I offered a personal anecdote as a counterpoint.

Maybe that's the only way you can buy them in Canada, but we're talking about the U.S., eh? One doesn't have to buy a year's supply in the U.S., and the rolls don't all come in large-ish packages.

Even standard condom packages aren't much smaller than a mickey bottle. Again, stop doing all your screwing in gas station restrooms, you might learn something.

There's that Classic Black Dog response that one never tires of hearing. Over and over. And over. Like I said, a Black Dog Pavlovian response.

Feel free to leave the board any time you want.

So you read every single one of my posts, do you? I'm so flattered creeped out.

I don't, but I know you'd love the attention. You haven't seen this much action since they kicked you out of the Texaco.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Black Dog

[Guest American Woman]

No, I offered a personal anecdote as a counterpoint.

Sometimes a personal anecdote is just that, and not really relevant to the point being made. This was a case in point.

Even standard condom packages aren't much smaller than a mickey bottle. Again, stop doing all your screwing in gas station restrooms, you might learn something.

There's that Black Dog temper brewing again.

Feel free to leave the board any time you want.

Why thank you. Up until now, I thought I was bound to post here forever. I didn't feel "free to leave."

I don't, but I know you'd love the attention. You haven't seen this much action since they kicked you out of the Texaco.

Like I said. Anger management. But here's a tip. If you don't read all of my posts, you don't know what all of my posts consist of - and if you think I'm after attention, stop responding to me. Please.

Edited September 11, 2012 by American Woman

[JerrySeinfeld]

So to get back to that, what do you think it says about Catholic institutions that they are literally paying to get men stiff?

-k

Good for them! Now more sex for men.

[Shady]

Good for them! Now more sex for men.

Exactly. As long as those institutions aren't forced into it. No pun intended!

[JerrySeinfeld]

You guys really are a bunch of gigantic hypocrites.

-k

No we're not. Go ahead, have all the sex you want. Nobody is stopping you. Don't get your tights all into a know just because you have a uterus. And don't go hat in' on men because you do. Get onto mother nature or god or whoever, but your biological reality is what it is. accept it!

Really. It's gonna be ok. Or better yet, just <ahem> man up, and pony up the $9 bucks sister.

Edited September 13, 2012 by JerrySeinfeld

[waldo]

Really. It's gonna be ok. Or better yet, just <ahem> man up, and pony up the $9 bucks sister.

Jer, why didn't you advise her to just hold an aspirin between her knees?

but c'mon Jer, is it really fair for you to get your boner pills paid for while at the same time you offer such stellar advice to MLW member, 'kimmy'?

[bud]

As an aside, I'll never forget one of my first trips to the U.S. as an adult, going into a grocery store and seeing the wide variety of booze just sitting out in the open. Condoms, however, were kept behind the tills in locked cabinets.

omg. me too. we didn't notice the condom situation during our first visit because we were so mesmerized by the wide selection of cheap alcohol.