"the english are waking up!"

[Rocky Road]

Why the only thing that you hold from what I say is seperate? Among all the open doors I give to you, you look at the last option.

It just seems so severe, we understand the unique identity and language aspect.

I also agree with what you said about multinationals, we are becoming powerless against the big business interests.

China has a lot of money in the bank, they just proposed an acquisition of Calgary based Nexen energy for 15.1 billion.

I grew up in Saskatchewan, and live in Alberta. I am mixed English and French heritage, many of my Aunts still speak Francais, I took up to grade 9. We went to Quebec City in 2001 to protest agains George Bush, we marched in solidarite with many of our Quebecois brothers and sisters.

Alberta has some pretty amazing people too! The stereotype that we are all backward money grubbing hicks is sad.

Viva Quebec and Viva Canada!

Jadore les beaux arts.

[Rocky Road]

Lets all agree that this debate should not be discussed in a thread about a criminal that murdered an innocent man.

Moment of silence for Mr. DENIS BLANCHETTE.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Rocky Road

[g_bambino]

The people of Canada did not vote regarding the constitution.

Yes, they did; via their elected representatives. That includes the representation of citizens who live in Quebec.

[g_bambino]

Levesque traded the Opt Out for the Trudeau's amendments. It was a big gain for the group of eight. Lévesque did NOT give up the group...

Yes, the opt out clause was part of the Group of Eight's demands; a veto and distinct society status for Quebec were not. Lesveque agreed regardless and became a member of the group. He therefore gave up the veto when he signed on with the Group of Eight in early 1981, not, as you said, when Trudeau came to him on 4 November. On that night, Trudeau offered Lesveque the referenda deal and Lesveque was forced to accept, thereby abandoning the rest of the Group of Eight, lest he come across as undemocratic and a hypocrite (since he had directed only the year before that a referendum on Quebec independence be held in that province). Whatever Lesveque's intentions, the other premiers took it as a betrayal.

This is all beside the point, however, which is that Quebec lost nothing in the process of patriation and, really, the provinces all gained. Which puts to bed your irrational whining about Quebec's lost power and its subjugation under the Anglophone jackboot.

yes it did. The major shift was at the first or second WW. I don't remember exactly. The federal used the war measures law to attribute itself more power that it never gave back.

What? You better try to remember exactly, since what you're saying is nonsense. The War Measures Act was passed by the federal parliament (again, with representation for Quebecers) in 1914. The Second World war was between 1939 and 1945. The War Measures Act was used by Cabinet three times, the last in 1970, and all times there was a set date upon which the Cabinet's use of the act's provisions ended. Patriation was in 1982. So, I'm sure we'd all love to hear your explanation of how the War Measures Act allowed for a denegration of provincial power upon patriation of the constitution.

[ed.: c/e]

Edited September 7, 2012 by g_bambino

[Tilter]

You exaggerate. They aren't kicking Anglos out. The pq may be distasteful, but let's not exaggerate their policies and call them "racist". The word loses all meaning and you lose the debate.

How about making Anglos so unwelcome they want to leave--- the PQs are doing just that & have been doing it for many years.

[Rocky Road]

Yes, the opt out clause was part of the Group of Eight's demands; a veto and distinct society status for Quebec were not. Lesveque agreed regardless and became a member of the group. He therefore gave up the veto when he signed on with the Group of Eight in early 1981, not, as you said, when Trudeau came to him on 4 November. On that night, Trudeau offered Lesveque the referenda deal and Lesveque was forced to accept, thereby abandoning the rest of the Group of Eight, lest he come across as undemocratic and a hypocrite (since he had directed only the year before that a referendum on Quebec independence be held in that province). Whatever Lesveque's intentions, the other premiers took it as a betrayal.

This is all beside the point, however, which is that Quebec lost nothing in the process of patriation and, really, the provinces all gained. Which puts to bed your irrational whining about Quebec's lost power and its subjugation under the Anglophone jackboot.

What? You better try to remember exactly, since what you're saying is nonsense. The War Measures Act was passed by the federal parliament (again, with representation for Quebecers) in 1914. The Second World war was between 1939 and 1945. The War Measures Act was used by Cabinet three times, the last in 1970, and all times there was a set date upon which the Cabinet's use of the act's provisions ended. Patriation was in 1982. So, I'm sure we'd all love to hear your explanation of how the War Measures Act allowed for a denegration of provincial power upon patriation of the constitution.

[ed.: c/e]

You sure know your P's and Q's.

I have to admit I have always admired politics and the public life, it is so interesting to follow the players in the scene and the intrigue of it all.

Have a great weekend!

[Tilter]

Why the only thing that you hold from what I say is seperate? Among all the open doors I give to you, you look at the last option.

I have analysed alot of union in the world and compare them with Canada. From my standing point, Canada has a great potential. But the current situation for Québec is totally unacceptable. I'd rather seperate than continu like this. What I would like, is kill once and for all that british imperialism attitude so we can stop being opposed one another and go foward together for change

But the current situation for Québec is totally unacceptable

I agree.

To have road signs & street names only in French is totally unacceptable

For a family from Alberta, moving to Quebec, the fight they must engage in to have their kids in an English school is totally unacceptable

For an Anglo to have his driver's licence printed in French only is totally unacceptable

There are many more things in Quebec that are totally unacceptable to Anglos living there, one of which is the Patois that Quebec calls French.

[Signals.Cpl]

There's a difference between democracy and tyranny of the majority; by saying what you do above, you're giving credence to the myths on which Benz has built his complaints.

All parties in Confederation should have an interest in all the others, otherwise Canada ceases to exist. That's why the constitution makes it so that all eleven parties have equal rights and their powers are set as last agreed by all and one party or multiple parties cannot diminish the powers or affect the government of another without the other's agreement. Such was so even before 1982; contrary to Benz's assertions, patriation did not take any powers away from Quebec, or any other province, for that matter. Quebec never had the veto power Lesveque then claimed it did. In fact, patriation entrenched the province's pre-existing powers and protections: the amending formula cemented the need for a province's approval to any amendment affecting its governance, powers, and boundaries; it maintained provincial sovereignty by including the notwithstanding clause (essentially the "opt out" clause Lesveque and some other premiers wanted). The demands of the Gang of Eight (of which Lesveque was a part) were therefore mostly met; Lesveque had months before abandoned his demands for a special veto and distinct society status for Quebec when he joined that group, since the agreement he signed with those other premiers didn't include either criteria, meaning he let go of the veto demand before September 1981, not, as Benz claims, when Trudeau approached him on 4 November. What Lesveque did on 4 November was abandon the Group of Eight, when he alone agreed to Trudeau's offer to patriate the constitution with Trudeau's proposed amendments and put those amendments to a referendum or referedna. Feeling betrayed, the other premiers negotiated and reached a decision without Lesveque, though, as already said, the results diminished in no way whatsoever the provincial powers that had existed since the end of the 19th century. The frequency with which the legislature of Quebec has employed the notwithstanding clause, especially when the PQ has been in power, only serves to illustrate.

All parties should be interested, but not above the interests of their constituents. If the premier of any province starts carrying more about the welling of the people in another province than his own constituents and acting contrary to their best interest then he gets changed.

We live in a democracy where the majority should theoretically rule and elected officials at the municipal level should look out for the best interest of their municipality, the elected officials at the provincial level should look out for the wellbeing and the interests at the provincial level and they are to be the glue that holds all municipalities together and working properly.Mayor Rob Ford shouldn't worry about the wellbeing and the interests of the people of Winnipeg at the expense of his own city.

[g_bambino]

We live in a democracy where the majority should theoretically rule...

Yes, but unchecked majority rule tends to be the route to the end of democracy. In a democracy, all the participants should have an equal say in their governance, whether they're a minority or not. All participants should have an interest in maintaining such an arrangement; it is beneficial to themselves and the others to do so. In Canadian Confederation, all the parties, including Quebec, have that equality.

[ed.: sp, c/e]

Edited September 7, 2012 by g_bambino

[Signals.Cpl]

What vote? There are no votes. The people of Canada did not vote regarding the constitution.

Sure they did, people elected the politicians who voted in their name.

Are you talking about the House of Common? I never mentionned that. If Québec represents only 23% of the people, then it deserves 23% of the seats in the HC. I don't have a problem with that.

No, I am talking about your complaining that anglophones who make a majority "force" Quebecers to do such nasty little things as observe the law of the land and religious freedom, since most Canadians do want to observe the law and religious freedom you are SOL.

The constitution is another story. It's not the same rules, the topics. Most of the content of the constitution regards the cultures. Englis, French, Natives...

So what is your issue with it? Is your issue that Quebec is not on par with the federal government? Is your issue that Quebecers don't get enough hugs from the ROC?

The constitution must considere the people of Québec has a nation that have a say on it.

Great, then we can have the People of Ontario being recognized as a nation, Alberta as well, while we are there Newfoundland gets recognized as a nation and then what?

The HC is based on the representativity and it is just fine as is.

But then what is your issue? You want someone to say you are a nation? Great you are a nation trapped in the body of a province...happy?

The senate... well the actual one is a mess, a load of crap. It should be the same as it is in most other countries, based upon the regions. The tradition in Canada is to divide the regions in 4. West+Ontario+Québec+Est. Some beleive the West should be divided in two, Pacific and Prairies. I don't mind, so be it. The regions choose who they send to the senate, not the elected prime minister of the HC for christ sake.

I don't agree with the division but the base concept is sound.

What is it you don't understand with my explanations. Do you speak english or what? Oh by the way, if you wanna play smart with the democracy, the chineses outnumber all of us. So get rid of english, speak chinese and give the Canadian's sovereignty to them. This is where your logic leads you.

Yet the chinese don't count because they don't live in CANADA... You seem to have major issues when an overwhelming majority of Canadians "forces" Quebec to do something but you have no issue forcing people to stay with an independent Quebec should that ever happen.

They gave up everything they were fighting for. Trudeau won on all boards. That was NOT for the best interest of Canada. Unless you beleive the best interest for Canada is to motivate Québec to leaves.

Ok, and Trudeau was fighting for what? Was he not fighting for Canada?

I don't get it. What are you trying to say?

Convince enough Separatists and the problem might solve itself by Quebec Separating, albeit in a much smaller piece of territory as there would be those pesky people who want to remain Canadian and thus Quebec will be split in a New nation as well as a province because canada will abandon millions of its citizens and thus force them to live in a different country and give up their citizenship.

If you don't know what to say, say nothing. Just think about it and eventually, you might pond something meaningful. You are explaining to me that it is in the best intesrest of the english canadians to turn 180 degrees and give up what they were fighting to make sure Québec is isolated.

So why is Quebec always interested in whats best for Quebec rather than say whats best for Alberta? Or Ontario? Or BC? A premier will not screw over his/her own constituents in order to appease Quebec

[Signals.Cpl]

You obviously need to learn some history, Signal Cpl

There have been attempts at assimilation of the French-speaking population in what is now Quebec. And the horse man*re known as Quebec language laws are well matched by some of the stuff that has occured over the years in other provinces.

Let,s start with...

In 1801, the first law governing education in Lower Canada attempted to implement a system of "public schols" dominated by the Anglican herarchy, aimed at making the population protestant and English speaking.

In 1841, the Act of Union clearly stated that English would be the only language of the laws snd the Legislative Assembly. Thankfully, it didn't work.

Assimilation was tried. It didn't work, but it was tried.

AS for after Confederation...

A few examples:

In 1891, the Legislature of Manitoba passed an Official Language Act (name sou nds familiar) banning the French language from the Legislature, the laws and the Court of the Province - in direct contravention of the Manitoba Act of 1870, which is part of the Constitution. In the same decade, legislation was passed effectively forbidding instruction in French in the public schools of the Province. (You know of course, that, despite the violation of the right of Quebecers to choose French or English as their language of instruction, English schools have never been outlawed in Quebec).

In Ontario, instruction in French was forbidden in public schools under Regulation 17, from 1912 to the late 1920's (was still in the books to the 1940's).

One of the first acts of the Legislature of Alberta and Saskatchewan after 1905 was to nullify the clauses of the North-West Territories Act that gave equal status to English and French.

Except for criminal procedures, most provinces still only recognize a limited (to non-existent) right to the use of the French language in provincial court proceedings (you know of course, that section 133 of the Constution Act, 1867, guarantees the right to use either English or french in any Quebec court).

Thankfully, this is 2012 and the good old days when French-speaking Canadians had no right outside of Quebec are that, old days. And my use of the words horse and man*re to describe Quebec language laws should not lead to any ambiguity about what I think of them. But let,s not pretend that things that have happened didn't happen, shall we?

Ok so let me be short and to the point, 1760 Quebec falls to the British they did not try to assimilate Quebec, individuals might have presented ill though out plans but they did not full heartedly try to do so otherwise We wouldn't be having this discussion... just ask the Acadians.

[Signals.Cpl]

Yes, but unchecked majority rule tends to be the route to the end of democracy. In a democracy, all the participants should have an equal say in their governance, whether they're a minority or not. All participants should have an interest in maintaining such an arrangement; it is beneficial to themselves and the others to do so. In Canadian Confederation, all the parties, including Quebec, have that equality.

[ed.: sp, c/e]

They do have an equal say, and as is often the case there is no clear majority in anything. What Benz is complaining about is that the French Speaking people are always the minority which is not the case as the rest of us rarely speak with a single voice.

[Peter F]

To have road signs & street names only in French is totally unacceptable

perfectly acceptable actually. I had no problem with it. Though the flashing green was a bit of a mystery for a while

For a family from Alberta, moving to Quebec, the fight they must engage in to have their kids in an English school is totally unacceptable

odd. got my kids into English school simple as pie.

For an Anglo to have his driver's licence printed in French only is totally unacceptable

totally acceptable. It was no problem at all.

There are many more things in Quebec that are totally unacceptable to Anglos living there, one of which is the Patois that Quebec calls French.

Entirely acceptable. Rather liked it actually.

[jacee]

I agree.

To have road signs & street names only in French is totally unacceptable

For a family from Alberta, moving to Quebec, the fight they must engage in to have their kids in an English school is totally unacceptable

For an Anglo to have his driver's licence printed in French only is totally unacceptable

There are many more things in Quebec that are totally unacceptable to Anglos living there, one of which is the Patois that Quebec calls French.

Geez don't pop a blood vessel!

Kids educated in both languages have more opportunities, like becoming Prime Minister.

If you can't learn to read your drivers license in French ... who cares? Only the cop has to read it.

Who ever promised you you could get through life in one language?

Don't like it? Don't go.

[Antiochus]

Richard Henry Bain, 62, arrested after man shot dead during Pauline Marois victory speech

link

curious to hear what those who are from quebec feel about this incident and about the so-called separatist party coming to power. to me, it looks like the PQ won because the liberals didn't do their job. it doesn't look like this was an election about separatism. i do admit, the quebec elections hasn't really been on my radar.

You would be right...

As of the murder itself, it caused more of a panic than an awakening. My English friends are pretty scared that this terrorist act will reopen old wounds between the two communities while francophones, such as myself, are mostly under shock. We are not used to violence in the political discourse. I know some people might want to point out the events of 1970, but those things are more an exception to the rule than anything else.

A journalist in one of our newspaper said it best; 1 killed, 8 millions wounded...

Edited September 7, 2012 by Antiochus

[Wild Bill]

They do have an equal say, and as is often the case there is no clear majority in anything. What Benz is complaining about is that the French Speaking people are always the minority which is not the case as the rest of us rarely speak with a single voice.

That's the problem, Cpl. The French do not recognize that there are many voices in the rest of Canada.

To them, there is French Canada and Anglo Canada. They don't recognize Canadians as outside of Quebec as anything but English, no matter if they came from Britain, Bangladesh or any country in between.

They see things as 50-50. There is French and there is English. They don't see Canada as a collection of equal provinces. To them, equality means they get half, because...they're French!

[Antiochus]

I agree.

To have road signs & street names only in French is totally unacceptable

For a family from Alberta, moving to Quebec, the fight they must engage in to have their kids in an English school is totally unacceptable

For an Anglo to have his driver's licence printed in French only is totally unacceptable

There are many more things in Quebec that are totally unacceptable to Anglos living there, one of which is the Patois that Quebec calls French.

Sorry, but Quebec is a french-speaking province and the various services offered by the provincial authority are delivered in the province's official language, just like any other provinces in Canada.

As for the "Patois", one would be quick to point out that slang also exists in other languages and that the Canadian vernacular is somewhat distinct from what purist would call classical (British) English, yet it does not make the language you speak any more inferior than the one I speak.

[Antiochus]

That's the problem, Cpl. The French do not recognize that there are many voices in the rest of Canada.

To them, there is French Canada and Anglo Canada. They don't recognize Canadians as outside of Quebec as anything but English, no matter if they came from Britain, Bangladesh or any country in between.

They see things as 50-50. There is French and there is English. They don't see Canada as a collection of equal provinces. To them, equality means they get half, because...they're French!

I find it ironic that you accuse the people of Quebec of using too broad a brush while visualizing the rest of Canada while doing the exact same while describing them.

As for the argument itself, I would say that the main problem is that you forget to mention that Provinces don't really interact much on those issues and the reason why Quebec often believes its opposition is with the rest of Canada is based on the fact that its battles are fought between the provincial and federal government. As the federal government does have power over all of Canada, its by no means surprising that the conflict might be roughly defined as a problem between Quebec and Canada, rather than a conflict between many different provinces.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Antiochus

[jbg]

This is beside the point. Québec has total legitimity for self-determination.

****************

This unity is living on borrowed time. You cannot expect the french to accept to leave under an english canadian constitution. You are just shoveling Canada's grave.

*************

The only english canadian politician that finally understood the Quebec's position was Jack Layton. He knew exaclty what to say to gain our trust for a better Canada and that's why Quebec did a major shift to NDP, even among very sovereignists fellows like me. Damn on the fatality, he's dead now.

If in your heart, deep down, you would really want to find a way to solve the problem. You would support the idea to accept that the Quebec nation must have a say on the constitution. It's a normal thing for a union having more than one nation.

But the majority of english canadians have a different perspective. Because they do not really understand Quebec, they see Quebec that should be just like the other provinces and does not want to.

********************

If you do that, it only means that you want to milk the Quebec province until this one decides to leave.

I suppose that's fine, but why should English Canadians subsidize another "nationality's" aspirations? Jack Layton, a committed socialist, didn't mind giving away other peoples' money. That doesn't mean that the sugar daddy's are so indulgent.

[Antiochus]

I suppose that's fine, but why should English Canadians subsidize another "nationality's" aspirations? Jack Layton, a committed socialist, didn't mind giving away other peoples' money. That doesn't mean that the sugar daddy's are so indulgent.

The main problem here is the differing meaning of the word "nation" in both French and English...

[CANADIEN]

I agree.

To have road signs & street names only in French is totally unacceptable

For a family from Alberta, moving to Quebec, the fight they must engage in to have their kids in an English school is totally unacceptable

For an Anglo to have his driver's licence printed in French only is totally unacceptable

There are many more things in eQuebec that are totally unacceptable to Anglos living there, one of which is the Patois that Quebec calls French.

Tell me... Is it also unacceptable that in some of the other provinces road signs and driver's licences are in English only? Was it unacceptable not that long ago that French-speaking parents in most provinces did have any problem sending their kids to local French-language schools... because there were none? Just asking.

Edited September 8, 2012 by CANADIEN

[jbg]

Double Post

Edited September 8, 2012 by jbg

[Antiochus]

That is factually wrong if you take into consideration the Act of Union of 1840...

It was clearly attempted to assimilate the francophones, but it was almost impossible due to several factors, including the demographics of the province and the fact that most institutions that would have had to be taken over by the English to ensure assimilation were in the hands of the catholic (read-very french) clergy.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Antiochus

[Black Dog]

You are facist because you think you can split our land. You think our land belongs to you and that you granted us the generous gift to let us rent it from your. This is not how it works little boy.

So you can split up Canada, but Qubec itself is inviolable. Typical sovereigntist logic, that.

Maybe for you a province is worth nothing and only the federal matter, for us it's the other way around. Our nation, is the people of Québec and we belong to the Québec nation-state.

And yet you keep sucking off the teat of the rest of this nation. Why is that?

If you want to take some land away from us, you gonna have to use military and finish the job of 1760. Because your ancestors failed at eliminating us. We survived, we are a nation and we expect no less than the respect. We do not fear pityful frail men like you.

You survived by the grace and good will of the folks who conquered you. You should be more grateful.

[TheNewTeddy]

The French Media blames the Anglo Media for the shooting, saying by accurately covering the PQ platform they have instilled fear into Anglos