"A poor person never gave me a job!"

TimG · September 4, 2012

How long do you really think its possible for massive ammounts of real goods to flow in one direction, with nothing but bits of paper and electronic currency flowing in the other? It cant go on forever because eventually they wont be interested in our bits of paper anymore.

exactly. which is why western countries need to get their head out of their collective arses and think about what is required build competitive enterprises that can sell stuff to the rest of the world. this means the expectation of endlessly increasing wages and benefits in the government sector needs to go (with 30% of the workforce employed by government, the cost of government is a huge drag on the economy).

jacee · September 4, 2012

exactly. which is why western countries need to get their head out of their collective arses and think about what is required build competitive enterprises that can sell stuff to the rest of the world. this means the expectation of endlessly increasing wages and benefits in the government sector needs to go (with 30% of the workforce employed by government, the cost of government is a huge drag on the economy).

Ya let's try to sell stuff to people who can no longer afford it. <_<

Will the business community ever stop chewing off it's own arm?

dre · September 4, 2012

exactly. which is why western countries need to get their head out of their collective arses and think about what is required build competitive enterprises that can sell stuff to the rest of the world. this means the expectation of endlessly increasing wages and benefits in the government sector needs to go (with 30% of the workforce employed by government, the cost of government is a huge drag on the economy).

The problem with that is exports will always be relatively small and unimportant compared to our domestic economy. More than 3/4's of our GDP is domestic consumption. And as I said before trade will become less and less important, and in fact it already has. Any plan to reduce wages with the hope of increasing exports would be a disaster for the economy. "Competing" with the developing world is not necessary, and it should not be the goal of policy. The way for Canadians to maintain a high standard of life is through domestic economic growth, and steady population growth.

TimG · September 4, 2012

The problem with that is exports will always be relatively small and unimportant compared to our domestic economy.

The ability to generate enough exports to balance imports is essential since there will never be a time when economies are self sufficient. International trade will always be a big part of the picture.

"Competing" with the developing world is not necessary, and it should not be the goal of policy. The way for Canadians to maintain a high standard of life is through domestic economic growth, and steady population growth.

Only way to increase wealth is to increase productivity. Nothing else works. Population growth without productivity improvements will decrease average wealth.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not government wages are benefits are an anchor that reduces the productivity of the rest of the economy. They need to be brought in line with private sector norms.

Edited September 4, 2012 by TimG

Canuckistani · September 4, 2012

exactly. which is why western countries need to get their head out of their collective arses and think about what is required build competitive enterprises that can sell stuff to the rest of the world. this means the expectation of endlessly increasing wages and benefits in the government sector needs to go (with 30% of the workforce employed by government, the cost of government is a huge drag on the economy).

So basically lower themselves to the level of the rest of the world.

TimG · September 4, 2012

So basically lower themselves to the level of the rest of the world.

Get over yourself. The days of special privilege for people living in western countries are coming to an end. Standards of living are going down whether you like it or not. People working in the private sector are facing this reality with lower wage and benefit packages. This pain is exacerbated by a coddled public sector is protected from foreign competition. The cost of maintaining this coddled public sector comes at the expense of private sector workers. This has to end. Edited September 4, 2012 by TimG

cybercoma · September 4, 2012

Standards of living are going down whether you like it or not.

What a joke. Here comes TimG everybody. Calling for the standard of living to be reduce. Not for the rich, the CEOs, the corporate, banking, and oil executives, nope! Only for the average working class families. Get used to it folks. Your standard of living is falling, while theirs is rising. Say, Tim, what do you do for a living or are you just going to be ground beef for the soylent green like the rest of us?

TimG · September 4, 2012

Calling for the standard of living to be reduce.

I am not calling for it. I am stating the fact of it.

Only for the average working class families.

The average working class family are ones getting screwed by the public sector unions. It is cost of government is one of the things that increases the cost of living here. That, in turn, makes it more difficult for private sector employers to compete with foreign companies either domestically or internationally which lower wages or leaves fewer jobs for the average working class families.

You seem to be under the illusion that extracting more tax out of a few rich people will make a difference. It won't because there are simply too few rich people. More importantly, simply taxing them more and funnelling the extra money into paying more benefits to an overpaid union workforce does nothing to improve productivity. What we need are productivity improvements. That is what increases wealth. If you can show a way to tax rich people more AND improve productivity then I could support it. But you won't have a compelling argument unless your plan includes drastic reforms to the public sector pay.

Edited September 4, 2012 by TimG

Black Dog · September 4, 2012

The average working class family are ones getting screwed by the public sector unions. It is cost of government is one of the things that increases the cost of living here. That, in turn, makes it more difficult for private sector employers to compete with foreign companies either domestically or internationally which lower wages or leaves fewer jobs for the average working class families.

Who are these "average working class families" and why don't public sector workers count?

You seem to be under the illusion that extracting more tax out of a few rich people will make a difference. It won't because there are simply too few rich people. More importantly, simply taxing them more and funnelling the extra money into paying more benefits to an overpaid union workforce does nothing to improve productivity. What we need are productivity improvements. That is what increases wealth. If you can show a way to tax rich people more AND improve productivity then I could support it. But you won't have a compelling argument unless your plan includes drastic reforms to the public sector pay.

How does Germany do it? Large strong public sector unions, generous social programs, high taxes and they kick our ass on productivity.

blueblood · September 4, 2012

I am not calling for it. I am stating the fact of it.

The average working class family are ones getting screwed by the public sector unions. It is cost of government is one of the things that increases the cost of living here. That, in turn, makes it more difficult for private sector employers to compete with foreign companies either domestically or internationally which lower wages or leaves fewer jobs for the average working class families.

You seem to be under the illusion that extracting more tax out of a few rich people will make a difference. It won't because there are simply too few rich people. More importantly, simply taxing them more and funnelling the extra money into paying more benefits to an overpaid union workforce does nothing to improve productivity. What we need are productivity improvements. That is what increases wealth. If you can show a way to tax rich people more AND improve productivity then I could support it. But you won't have a compelling argument unless your plan includes drastic reforms to the public sector pay.

You can't ratchet up taxes in rich people in today's world because they can say you guys go fly a kite I'll set up elsewhere.

A big reason why the rich are getting richer is at more wealth is being generated elsewhere and those new consumers are buying products/services from the rich people whereas before only western people could afford.

I can honestly say that for the past 6 years when the emerging markets have been on a roll has been the most financially lucrative time of my life. It's about making things people want at a price they are willing to pay.

I don't know what the issue is with going after people with gross incomes at 250k and over, as it is dangerous because at the bottom end of that scale is where a great deal of small businesses operate at, and their margins are tight in order to compete with others. That takes a lot of incentive out of start ups.

blueblood · September 4, 2012

Who are these "average working class families" and why don't public sector workers count?

How does Germany do it? Large strong public sector unions, generous social programs, high taxes and they kick our ass on productivity.

Captive market.

Someone has to prop up the eu with some of the prizes of efficiency they have in that organization.

TimG · September 4, 2012

Who are these "average working class families" and why don't public sector workers count?

Because government workers cannot be paid unless money is extracted from the private sector. There is no justification for wage and benefit packages that exceed what someone would get in the private sector.

How does Germany do it? Large strong public sector unions, generous social programs, high taxes and they kick our ass on productivity.

Yet Germany is one of a few success stories among failures from Spain to Italy to Greece to France. You can't tout the success of Germany without addressing the abject failures of the same policies in rest of the Europe. Edited September 4, 2012 by TimG

dre · September 4, 2012

Because government workers cannot be paid unless money is extracted from the private sector. There is no justification for wage and benefit packages that exceed what someone would get in the private sector.

Yet Germany is a few success stories among failures from Spain to Italy to Greece to France. You can't tout the success of Germany without addressing the abject failures of the same policies in rest of the Europe.

The main difference between Germany and a country like the US is the size of its services sector VS the size of its industrial sector. Only about 23% of the US economy is occupied by industry and agriculture VS over 30% in Germany.

In most of the west there is too many people shuffling paper and not enough people actually making stuff. And that trend holds true in BOTH the private and public sectors. We are essentially embarking on a brand new experiment based on the assumption that a nation can stay "great" without large scalse industrialization, buy simply selling services to itself. Seems crazy to me that we can maintain a high standard of life by doing nothing besides selling financial services to ourselves, but this is essentially what we bought into with the whole "service based economy" scam. And almost every single nation that bought into this is bleeding red ink, and building up large debts to the countries that made large scale industrialization their goal instead of services.

The problem is like I said before real productivity and industrialization is what makes a currency strong. So when all is said and done most of the west is going to wake up and realize they can no longer afford to buy chinese products, they dont have the kit set up to make stuff themselves, and they are sitting on a massive mountain of debt caused by running huge trade deficits for way too long.

Edited September 4, 2012 by dre

TimG · September 4, 2012

In most of the west there is too many people shuffling paper and not enough people actually making stuff.

In 1900 90% of the workforce was agricultural. Today it is about 3%. But our agricultural production is at an all time high. This is partially due population increase but it is mostly due to improvements in productivity which allows farmers to do more with fewer people. The same thing is happening with manufacturing. This is generally a good thing.

My point is there is no connection between the number of people employed in an industry and the value it produces. We need to have primary industries because primary industries produce the wealth that drives the economy but the ideal ratio of primary industries to service industries is not fixed. It depends entirely on the productivity of the primary industries.

cybercoma · September 4, 2012

Because government workers cannot be paid unless money is extracted from the private sector.

Because government workers don't help the private sector make money? Is that what you think?

TimG · September 4, 2012

Because government workers don't help the private sector make money? Is that what you think?

So what? Some government provided services may help the private sector but that does not change the fact that the wealth used to pay for these services must come from the private sector. Government cannot pay for itself. The obscene public sector benefit packages need to end. Edited September 5, 2012 by TimG

cybercoma · September 5, 2012

So what? Some government provided services may help the private sector but that does not change the fact that the wealth used to pay for these services must come from the private sector. Government cannot pay for itself. The obscene public sector benefit packages need to end.

No shit it doesn't change the fact that government has to collect taxes to pay its workers. It does change the thrust of your argument though. Why don't you take a little bit more time to think about it.

eyeball · September 5, 2012

The days of special privilege for people living in western countries are coming to an end.

Yeah right, go tell that to the 1% and the politicians we elect to prop it up.

Standards of living are going down whether you like it or not.

When mine falls off the scale I'm taking as many of those conniving bastards with me as I can.

dre · September 5, 2012

When mine falls off the scale I'm taking as many of those conniving bastards with me as I can.

Thats why they are buy building prisons and expanding police powers

cybercoma · September 5, 2012

When mine falls off the scale I'm taking as many of those conniving bastards with me as I can.

Exactly. If they think they can keep reaping the riches while the rest of society gets screwed, they are in for a rude awakening and a revisitation of history.

TimG · September 5, 2012

Exactly. If they think they can keep reaping the riches while the rest of society gets screwed, they are in for a rude awakening and a revisitation of history.

Yet you have no problems with the public sector unions screwing private sector workers. Your priorities are completely screwed up. Lynching a few rich people may make you feel better but will do absolutely nothing about the issues you complain about. Actually doing something to increase the productivity of government would help.

Shady · September 5, 2012

Exactly. If they think they can keep reaping the riches while the rest of society gets screwed, they are in for a rude awakening and a revisitation of history.

You have no respect for private property and the rule of law.

kimmy · September 5, 2012

Tax fairness is now akin to "a lynchin'"?

-k

TimG · September 5, 2012

Tax fairness is now akin to "a lynchin'"?

Tax fairness? Rhetorical nonsense used as dubious a rationalization for a lynching.

Shady · September 5, 2012

Tax fairness? Rhetorical nonsense used as dubious a rationalization for a lynching.

Exactly. Also, "fairness" is a scompletely subjective term.

It's pretty disturbing listening to some of the view of people in this forum regarding the so-called rich. It reminds me of the mindset of racists. In that they've been so conditioned to think a certain way about a group of people. They have a pre-conceived notion of what they think a particular person is, and how they got that way, logic and reason and facts be damned.