Say NO to the Eurozon

[GostHacked]

Seems like the other thread about this was deleted. Probably based on the title of the thread. Which someone should have just changed the title of the thread. This stuff is very important.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/08/15/canada-bailout-europe-imf.html

German Chancellor Angela Merkel's visit with Prime Minister Stephen Harper has reignited the issue of Canada's refusal to contribute money to a bailout fund through the International Monetary Fund to help troubled European economies.

On Wednesday, when asked again whether Canada would reconsider, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty told reporters that "not enough has been done" and that European countries "need to do much more."

"We have been clear for several years that not only should the European countries take overwhelming, concerted action to take control of the situation,” Flaherty said, “but also that the European countries themselves have more than adequate resources to do so."

Well at least this deal seems to be failing. But I do believe that money will be given to the Eurozone but it won't be classified as a type of bailout. Canadian banks got a bailout that was not a bailout from entities like the US Fed the CHMC and the Bank of Canada.

The free trade pact should not go through. Fair trade is what needs to happen. If we are opening up our markets then the others that the deals have been made with must open theirs to us as well.

Canada could take a 'big haircut'

Walid Hejazi, associate professor of international business at University of Toronto's Rotman School of Management, said Canadian taxpayers could lose if the government contributes to an IMF fund.

"If Europe collapses, then yes there‘s a significant chance we'll take a big haircut. But chances are the money goes to the IMF and it gets loaned out to these countries and comes back over time."

However, Hejazi points out that the country would receive a lower return or no return on that money. For example, supposing Canada loaned the IMF $1 billion — would the organization return $1 billion in two years or $1 billion plus interest?

This is a good question. If money is lent out, what kind of return can Canada see on that investment? And are you sure you want to invest in failing economies that have been raped by international bankers and financiers?

[wyly]

if europe goes into some form of financial collapse it affects us as well, it's like your neighbour's house two doors down catching fire and smugly thinking your home is safe...conditions need to be in place to assure the money isn't wasted...

[GostHacked]

if europe goes into some form of financial collapse it affects us as well, it's like your neighbour's house two doors down catching fire and smugly thinking your home is safe...conditions need to be in place to assure the money isn't wasted...

Sadly you are right. But how do you make sure the money is not wasted when we have seen such waste in the past few years?

[Wild Bill]

if europe goes into some form of financial collapse it affects us as well, it's like your neighbour's house two doors down catching fire and smugly thinking your home is safe...conditions need to be in place to assure the money isn't wasted...

True, except that you are dealing with a neighbour who has a hobby of constantly playing with matches!

Is it a positive move to keep supporting him? Should you keep rebuilding his house for him - a house that gets more expensive every time?

A house that in many ways is better than yours?

It's a complicated issue...

[Keepitsimple]

Actually, I remember Flaherty saying that it was not the time for Canada to be contributing to a Euro bailout. He said until such such time as the Euro countries had taken every possible step and had a vision and long term plan in place, Canada would not be contributing to a bailout. He said it in the context of Greece and others where they were lurching from one crisis to another with no agreement or even consensus on a long term vision. So he's never said "never"....and that makes sense.

Some people have tried to equate Canada and our provinces and equalization to the Eurozone.....but we are one country with a single National pride. That's why ultimately, the Eurozone will fail. Conceptually, it works in good times but in bad times, the individual cultures, habits, and economic shortfalls bubble to the surface - and there is no nationalistic "all for one and one for all" sense of purpose.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Keepitsimple

[Michael Hardner]

It's all about money, anyway so might it not be worth it for us to contribute to a bailout if the deal is so good for us moving forward ?

I am in favour of free trade, but some of the provisions of this agreement need to be looked at: local sourcing, environmental restrictions, to name a few.

Is this government, and are we as Canadians, ready to have a full and open discussion about this before moving on it ?

[wyly]

True, except that you are dealing with a neighbour who has a hobby of constantly playing with matches!

Is it a positive move to keep supporting him? Should you keep rebuilding his house for him - a house that gets more expensive every time?

A house that in many ways is better than yours?

It's a complicated issue...

but don't lump all the neighbours into the same category many of those euro neighbours have the same concerns as we do they don't like seeing their euros squandered either...the responsible euro countries are looking to attach conditions to financial to the aid just as we would...if their houses all burn so will ours...

[wyly]

Sadly you are right. But how do you make sure the money is not wasted when we have seen such waste in the past few years?

I'd follow the lead of the germans they have the most to lose and will attach a lot of very tough conditions to bailouts...

[GostHacked]

It's all about money, anyway so might it not be worth it for us to contribute to a bailout if the deal is so good for us moving forward ?

I am in favour of free trade, but some of the provisions of this agreement need to be looked at: local sourcing, environmental restrictions, to name a few.

Is this government, and are we as Canadians, ready to have a full and open discussion about this before moving on it ?

I am in favour of FAIR trade. And not many are ready to discuss it because many don't even know or understand what it all means. Most don't even really care, which is part of the problem.

[GostHacked]

I'd follow the lead of the germans they have the most to lose and will attach a lot of very tough conditions to bailouts...

Germany is only part of the whole troubled Eurozone. And at the moment without Germany, the whole EU falls apart very quickly. Is anyone really sure we want to share the problems that Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France and others are experiencing? We'd be buying into their debt. I don't think Canadian taxpayers appreciate that.

[CPCFTW]

"Lend us money so that we don't have to cut our entitlement programs that Canadians don't have". No thanks.

Because we all know the greeks and french need to retire at 55 more than a Canadian. They just aren't built to work as long as we do!

What's next, asking Africa for bailout money?

[Michael Hardner]

I am in favour of FAIR trade. And not many are ready to discuss it because many don't even know or understand what it all means. Most don't even really care, which is part of the problem.

They don't have to have a discussion with MOST of us, just with the 20% of us who read and take the time to inform ourselves.

[CPCFTW]

If they need our money so bad, we can just buy 5-7% bonds of european countries.. The market rate of their debt, not give the imf an interest free loan so they can buy those 5-7% bonds themselves.

[GostHacked]

If they need our money so bad, we can just buy 5-7% bonds of european countries.. The market rate of their debt, not give the imf an interest free loan so they can buy those 5-7% bonds themselves.

Sure we can lend out a billion, at 10% interest (or whatever). The banks do it this way and that is part of the reason/problem that austerity measures are being administered in Greece, Italy and others. The banks never lend money out without interest.

[CPCFTW]

Sure we can lend out a billion, at 10% interest (or whatever). The banks do it this way and that is part of the reason/problem that austerity measures are being administered in Greece, Italy and others. The banks never lend money out without interest.

Of course they don't... They pay interest on their deposits. They wouldn't do very well if they were paying interest on deposits and lending it out for free...

[WWWTT]

True, except that you are dealing with a neighbour who has a hobby of constantly playing with matches!

I agree!

Unfortunately we got the biggest neighbour that like playing with matches right here called the US!

WWWTT

[jbg]

Sadly you are right. But how do you make sure the money is not wasted when we have seen such waste in the past few years?

On this you and I agree. I am quite sure it would be wasted.

[PIK]

It seems harper will get his deal and without giving them money. One leftie commentator said it was like canada is a mansion and EU is a bungalow and the EU guy comes over and says we are in trouble and we need a few bucks where harper says no. Which the commentator says is rude and arrogant. I would say it is the EU in the mansion and us in the bungalo and the EU comes over and says ,we have been living large , partying everynite and I am broke ,so can you give us some money to keep the party rolling. And we were correct in saying no. The EU needs some tough love right now.

[Wild Bill]

It seems harper will get his deal and without giving them money. One leftie commentator said it was like canada is a mansion and EU is a bungalow and the EU guy comes over and says we are in trouble and we need a few bucks where harper says no. Which the commentator says is rude and arrogant. I would say it is the EU in the mansion and us in the bungalo and the EU comes over and says ,we have been living large , partying everynite and I am broke ,so can you give us some money to keep the party rolling. And we were correct in saying no. The EU needs some tough love right now.

Too many countries in the EU have a strong sense of entitlement. In trade deals especially it has never worked out well for Canada.

We can sign a deal opening up trade in agricultural goods only to see after a year or two that a country like France, afraid that it will have more farmers rioting in the streets, will renege on the parts of the deal that gave better access for Canadian goods into France.

Meanwhile, they still expect that Canada will keep the doors open for THEIR stuff!

For years we have been a door mat for these countries. Screw 'em and the horses they rode in on, I say. Letting ourselves get screwed is not a positive solution for anyone.

[blueblood]

Too many countries in the EU have a strong sense of entitlement. In trade deals especially it has never worked out well for Canada.

We can sign a deal opening up trade in agricultural goods only to see after a year or two that a country like France, afraid that it will have more farmers rioting in the streets, will renege on the parts of the deal that gave better access for Canadian goods into France.

Meanwhile, they still expect that Canada will keep the doors open for THEIR stuff!

For years we have been a door mat for these countries. Screw 'em and the horses they rode in on, I say. Letting ourselves get screwed is not a positive solution for anyone.

Are we getting screwed? I recall eastern canada making out like bandits after nafta got signed. The numbers don't lie, free trade has been beneficial for this country.

[Wild Bill]

Are we getting screwed? I recall eastern canada making out like bandits after nafta got signed. The numbers don't lie, free trade has been beneficial for this country.

blueblood, did you actually read my post?

I said nothing against free trade. I never mentioned Nafta, which only concerns north american trade.

I ONLY spoke about deals with Europe that the Europeans don't always honour THEIR side of the bargain!

That was the point of my post.

I talked about apples and you start harping about oranges.

Sheesh!

[blueblood]

blueblood, did you actually read my post?

I said nothing against free trade. I never mentioned Nafta, which only concerns north american trade.

I ONLY spoke about deals with Europe that the Europeans don't always honour THEIR side of the bargain!

That was the point of my post.

I talked about apples and you start harping about oranges.

Sheesh!

But we've never had a deal with europe, it was always trade at their mercy, and I know first hand my industry's dealings with the gong show that is europe. Europe is going to go through one hell of a temper tantrum when they realize that ag subsidies will have to be cut and they'll have to change their attitudes towards gmo's. Perhaps that's a card harper can play if they come asking for money.

[dre]

Is this government, and are we as Canadians, ready to have a full and open discussion about this before moving on it ?

Of course not! Thats the very last thing folks involved in these various organizations want.