Rethinking oil sands and pipelines

[jacee]

It's heartening to hear that Alberta and Ottawa have heard the message loud and clear that more attention and regulation of emissions and pipeline safety are demanded by Canadians. The Enbridge spills and about face of climate change skeptics and public outcry are having an effect.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/alberta-eyes-tougher-carbon-rules/article4477836/?service=mobile

http://m.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1239885--conservatives-continue-to-soften-tone-on-northern-gateway-pipeline

http://m.thestar.com/news/world/article/1238554--climate-change-skeptic-causes-a-stir-with-his-about-face]--climate-change-skeptic-causes-a-stir-with-his-about-face

There is no reason on God's green earth why Canadians can't do a better safer cleaner extraction and distribution of oil, except the political will was lacking. That seems to be changing.

Edited August 14, 2012 by jacee

[MiddleClassCentrist]

It's going to be smoke and mirrors, or colour me surprised.

The king of closed government and lack of accountability will ensure that this is just a facade with no teeth.

I'd like to thank Thomas Mulcair for having the guts to bring this issue to light so that Harper actually took some time to give it lip service. I hope most of the sheeple realize that.

Edited August 13, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[waldo]

I'd like to thank Thomas Mulcair for having the guts to bring this issue to light so that Harper actually took some time to give it lip service. I hope most of the sheeple realize that.

lip service is the correct framing - Harper Conservatives could care less about emissions or safety... that ship long sailed. This is nothing more than a bare-faced ploy - standard fare for the 'Harper will do anything to hold government' crowd. Polls speak volumes... those B.C. seats suddenly take on a whole new importance to a Harper Conservative government with a slim majority. Hey, did you hear... Harper wants to rely upon Science in making the decision!!!

[login]

Yeah, I think that 0 emissions technologies are available it is just the scale of production and needs don't necessitate stricter controls. Why pay $100 for a portapotty if no one cares if you dump on the ground? I'm sure if emissions were more visible and were in peoples back yards (which they are, people would care more. I think in all this, what actually is unfortunate is that Environmental controls reduced, at a time that there is global consensus that we are approaching a crisis period due to emissions. Also the emissions haven't gone down, they just stopped counting them all and subtracted a ton because Canada has a large uninhabited forest area, and now they can count carbon sequestration (how much carbon trees eat) against total emissions, so the bigger the country is, the more masked the emissions are, and Canada is huge.

It is quite unfortunate that more isn't done to encourage 0 emissions technologies as a requirement of operating. They are big money they can afford it. It is a clear warning sign if the chinese consider Canada a lucrative business market for resource exploitation - its China.

The next government will need to go to sites like the following to improve environmental policy: http://english.mep.gov.cn/

I recommended to the pipeline org that they use nuclear plasma borers for their pipelines just dig it about 100m underground. Mobile nuclear reactors only cost a few million dollars these days, and they could rig up a tunneler to just make a 10-20 ft circumference tunnel that they can put their pipeline and golf cart roadways in, they could even make service areas. It would be much safer also. Some other modifications are needed but it is doable these days.

This is what 50 years ago en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Iceworm

Edited August 13, 2012 by login

[Wild Bill]

I recommended to the pipeline org that they use nuclear plasma borers for their pipelines just dig it about 100m underground. Mobile nuclear reactors only cost a few million dollars these days, and they could rig up a tunneler to just make a 10-20 ft circumference tunnel that they can put their pipeline and golf cart roadways in, they could even make service areas. It would be much safer also. Some other modifications are needed but it is doable these days.

Forgetting about international treaties about any use of nuclear power, wouldn't we expect the "eco-warriors" to go screaming yellow zonkers about any use of nuclear power with pipelines?

[login]

Forgetting about international treaties about any use of nuclear power, wouldn't we expect the "eco-warriors" to go screaming yellow zonkers about any use of nuclear power with pipelines?

who cares. I'm talking about nuclear powered boring machiens that will improve enviornmental safety.

Small scale nuclear reactors especially helium fission reactors are not emissions issues they are radioactive waste issues. A small reactor that fits into the back of a truck and pumps out 30 or so MW of energy 100m underground ain't a large risk, a nd the benefit of an underground tunnel pipelines that are easier to control spils or sabatouge on far outweigh the negative repercussions of not doing anything. (This is hundreds and thousands of KM of pipeline that would oterhwise be exposed surface and subsurface contamination.

Industry can't be halted it can only be improved. I think that I would agree stop using technology that didn't come direct from the planet I gained with my own hands if everyone I am exposed to do the same. But een if that were to happen the planet would melt down.

My position is squarely that we cannot just stop we have to control the come down.

Its comparable to someone who is ODing on drugs, getting them to hold their breath ain't going to help. THe realities that we have to sustain critical resources has to be realized because for instance places like the CDC nuclear reactor sites, storage facilities etc.. all rely on inputs. We have critical food needs, if we stop using petrofertalizers our croplands will be unusuable in many cases, a sustained directed come down is essential.

While I agree surface pipelines in critical environmental areas must be stopped progress itself has to be improved and directed and that doesn't equal stoping industry it just means being more effective at industry and determining what are critical industrial needs and what ones are now critical.

Also environmental clean up and growth is another critical aspect that needs to be addressed by insuring that industry equals environmental improvement through symbiotic initiatives.

The key is to get pipelines as deep into the lithosphere as possible.

Even connecting resovoirs and doing subsurface processing is a step up if it keeps emissions out of the troposphere.

Think of it as the new rail project not seen since the 1860's its a 150 years later we can build tunnels for pipelines these days.

This is a far more pressing concern than a nuclear powered tunneler

http://www.myessentia.com/blog/blog/2011/07/10/giant-mega-quarry-on-track-to-pollute-major-ontario-watersheds/

Like even in lui of super heated plasma magnetic pressure plate system

atleast do something like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subterrene

Edited August 13, 2012 by login

[Moonbox]

okay that's just funny. Nuclear plasma borers...just wow.

I'm trying to think of a more cost-prohibitive way of doing this...but I can't.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Moonbox

[Wild Bill]

who cares. I'm talking about nuclear powered boring machiens that will improve enviornmental safety.

Industry can't be halted it can only be improved. I think that I would agree stop using technology that didn't come direct from the planet I gained with my own hands if everyone I am exposed to do the same. But een if that were to happen the planet would melt down.

My position is squarely that we cannot just stop we have to control the come down.

Also environmental clean up and growth is another critical aspect that needs to be addressed by insuring that industry equals environmental improvement through symbiotic initiatives.

You are talking rationally and scientifically about something that will of a certainty be opposed by the environmental movement, that has shown itself repeatedly over the years to be neither rational or scientific but VERY politically powerful!

I don't think you are describing the real world at all.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Wild Bill

[login]

You are talking rationally and scientifically about something that will of a certainty be opposed by the environmental movement, that has shown itself repeatedly over the years to be neither rational or scientific but VERY politically powerful!

I don't think you are describing the real world at all.

Wild Bill I think you may be right but it is a possible real world, if only they acquired the borers and started tunneling. I figure it would take a few monthss at 3km /hour to bore a tunnel from Alberta to the coast of BC.. avoiding all the virgin forestland and delicate water systems better yet after it was done, tunnels on old pipelines could be imrpoved using any surviving boring machine.

See it saves the land for things like fishing and hunting and picking berries and pot, and saves the surface for the flower chldren of the future. And all this for a 15 million dollar asset that will likely bring in more money than it costs to construct and deploy.

Enviromentalists already see big oil as Morlocks so it just goes to improve both sides worldviews. I'm sure there are those who support big oil who view environmentalists as Eloi too. We could use H.G. Wells as a basis for Oil and Resource Policy of the future.

Cern a dramtically more complex tunnel system is an example of what is possible.

Its not like I'm suggesting we put the environmentalists down a 100meter shaft with picks and spoons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=yRfhrcM2l6U&NR=1

Edited August 13, 2012 by login

[guyser]

. I figure it would take a few monthss at 3km /hour to bore a tunnel from Alberta to the coast of BC..

Current record is........

...396m...in a month !

Yea those 3K per hour speeds will be met, but you'll also meet George Jetson and Astro , not to mention make a run to Mars for smokes.

[wyly]

lip service is the correct framing - Harper Conservatives could care less about emissions or safety... that ship long sailed. This is nothing more than a bare-faced ploy - standard fare for the 'Harper will do anything to hold government' crowd. Polls speak volumes... those B.C. seats suddenly take on a whole new importance to a Harper Conservative government with a slim majority. Hey, did you hear... Harper wants to rely upon Science in making the decision!!!

harper would be handing 17 current CPC seats in BC to the NDP plus 7 new seats to be added, a potential gain of 24 for the NDP...the CPC would gain the 6 new seats in AB but are still unlikely to gain the lone NDP seat in Edmonton...so a potential net loss of 18 seats, it's no wonder he's kept his yap shut and avoided the pipeline issue...

science what scientists are those, the ones he fired or the ones he has gagged...

[NUMBERED]

Current record is........

...396m...in a month !

Yea those 3K per hour speeds will be met, but you'll also meet George Jetson and Astro , not to mention make a run to Mars for smokes.

where are you getting the figures for nuclear tunnel boring machines tunneling speed from?

I think you are refering to other forms of boring tunnelers that don't use nuclear power and use inferior only mechanical technologies.

NTBM's such as powered by thorium microreactors cost less, make stronger tunnels and don't have waste to be removed as they glassify debris. Also the timeline was over 3x the total time requred giving an 8 hour work day. It could be done in 10 days working around the clock.

Edited August 13, 2012 by NUMBERED

[Moonbox]

Wild Bill I think you may be right but it is a possible real world, if only they acquired the borers and started tunneling. I figure it would take a few monthss at 3km /hour to bore a tunnel from Alberta to the coast of BC.. avoiding all the virgin forestland and delicate water systems better yet after it was done, tunnels on old pipelines could be imrpoved using any surviving boring machine.

It's also possible to load your garbage into rockets and send them into the sun. Problem is it's kind of expensive. I'll leave you on the point and maybe you can follow the logic through.

[NUMBERED]

It's also possible to load your garbage into rockets and send them into the sun. Problem is it's kind of expensive. I'll leave you on the point and maybe you can follow the logic through.

Why use rockets when you can use the space elevator Japan is building.

You are living in the past.

The reality here is that most garbage can actually be sequestered to usefull purposes.

Organics can be reclaimed.

Plastics can be organically decomposed.

metals can be reclaimed

really there is nothing that can't be reclaimed from garbage dumps.

It is just the equipment required to do it. It is a net gain as long as the energy exists.

We could put the poor to work going through the midens in leui of robotic systems to remove the buildups and toxic substances.

Dump sites are goldmines.

reading through the top 100 links on google here and you will get an idea of what is possible.

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=robotic+reclaimation+systems+robots+landfills&oq=robotic+reclaimation+systems+robots+landfills&gs_l=serp.3...3179.10014.0.10105.45.33.0.0.0.0.619.8909.0j2j13j11j0j3.29.0...0.0...1c.Ld7J_ZN1cww&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f3d5e36516d5e272&biw=1366&bih=474

Instead of airport and building entrance scanners we could have (if not both) scan the garbage save the humans

http://beaconnews.ca/calgary/2012/05/recycling-robot-arm-intelligently-sorts-waste/

Edited August 13, 2012 by NUMBERED

[guyser]

where are you getting the figures for nuclear tunnel boring machines tunneling speed from?

I didnt use NTMB's silly.

Care to show us where.....anywhere a Nuclear tunnel machine has been used, will be used or even a picture of one?

While you are at it, grab me a pic of a Unicorn , Jackalope , Mermaid and something shady said that was true. (the unicorn should be the easiest)

I think you are refering to other forms of boring tunnelers that don't use nuclear power and use inferior only mechanical technologies.

NTBM's such as powered by thorium microreactors cost less, make stronger tunnels and don't have waste to be removed as they glassify debris. Also the timeline was over 3x the total time requred giving an 8 hour work day. It could be done in 10 days working around the clock.

re:Bold part. Please allow me say this.....

And now I say , Ladies and Gentlemen, lets extend a welcome to Numbered , a fine rep of Alex Jones and other nuttiness from some other planet.

You and login having fun yet?

Edited August 13, 2012 by guyser

[Moonbox]

We could put the poor to work going through the midens in leui of robotic systems to remove the buildups and toxic substances.

I'm looking out the window right now downtown Guelph and I can see about 20-30 people who'd be perfect candidates for this sort of work. Good suggestion!

[NUMBERED]

I didnt use NTMB's silly.

Care to show us where.....anywhere a Nuclear tunnel machine has been used, will be used or even a picture of one?

While you are at it, grab me a pic of a Unicorn , Jackalope , Mermaid and something shady said that was true. (the unicorn should be the easiest)

re:Bold part. Please allow me say this.....

And now I say , Ladies and Gentlemen, lets extend a welcome to Numbered , a fine rep of Alex Jones and other nuttiness from some other planet.

You and login having fun yet?

Maybe something like this?

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/underground01g_01.gif

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/underground01g_02.gif

There are a bunch of different NTBM model types.

maybe with a reactor like http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Toshiba's_Home_Nuclear_Fusion_Reactor

or an alternate thorium reactor...

Edited August 13, 2012 by NUMBERED

[guyser]

Maybe something like this?

Pictures of a patent application from 1972 is the best ya got?

Oh my.

There are a bunch of different NTBM model types.

A bunch, yet you cannot find one simple pic of one in operation , hell, standing static would be fine.

What part of 'they do not exist' is troubling you?

3KPH.....oh my.

One cannot even lay a road of asphalt that fast.

You and login do have PHD's , Pile Higher and Deeper

Edited August 13, 2012 by guyser

[Wild Bill]

Why use rockets when you can use the space elevator Japan is building.

You are living in the past.

The reality here is that most garbage can actually be sequestered to usefull purposes.

If only it were a rational world! I have little to no argument with your points as to what CAN be done! The problem is that the decisions as to what to DO are political and thus never seem to work!

Politicians usually have no idea what can work and don't care. They only care about what ideas are popular and thus might bring them votes.

Back in the early 90's during Bob Rae's NDP government in Ontario, there was much discussion as to what to do with all our garbage, particularly that from Toronto, which was the lion's share by a quantum leve.

Rae's environmental minister was a lady named Ruth Grier. The NDP had previously hitched their star to a belief among various environmental groups that incineration of garbage was bad, all the time, in every case, by any method, with no exceptions! So Ruth made that the official policy of Ontario under the NDP.

Now, it was all very well to take that stand but meanwhile the garbage was beginning to pile up to skyscraper heights. They had to do SOMETHING with it! There was just so much that any recycling programs would have been too little too late.

Then a company appeared from America, that had been incinerating garbage in many American cities. They used a new plasma furnace techology that had been proven to be extremely clean. They had videotapes of plants in southern cities with green grass and trees all around, looking clean as a whip. They wanted to do the same for Toronto and offered to fly Ruth and as many minions as she felt she needed down to one of these installations to see for themselves. She would have been welcome to bring along her own technicians to measure the air and inspect for how "green" their plant was operating.

Ruth absolutely refused to go look! She simply retreated to their earlier political stand that all incineration was bad, no matter what kind and with what technology.

Unless you can get the "eco-warriors" on side, who are notoriously NOT engineers or scientists but rather arts an poli-sci majors who have no understanding of the science and technology involved, you will not get the political support necessary to allow the technologies to be used.

It doesn't matter if they WORK if the people who have the power of decision making can't understand them or already have a contrary agenda.

[The_Squid]

regarding boring a tunnel to the coast:

Hereis a list of the longest tunnels ever made.

154 km is the longest one. It is in England.

One that is 10X longer through two massive mountain ranges is pure science fiction. It's a nice thought.... and if this is the new proposal then it should only take about 400 years to come up with the technology and do the boring.

But by this time, my car will be run by hydrogen (I'm assuming that I will be mostly cyborg and will live long enough to see it)!!

[wyly]

Why use rockets when you can use the space elevator Japan is building.

no one is building an elevator, it's pure sci-fi for now...

[NUMBERED]

nay nay.

There is definately progress on a variety of space elveators. Now that carbon nanotubels and other nano fibres are in production the projects have actually started.

There are pictures, but I can't vouche for their validity. The systems which were patented by US Government employees so said are controlled by the US government - well some designs.

It is only quite recently that microreactors that can be used have become a little more accessable and cost effective.

Most of it is relegated to the realm of US military projects, some of which have been validated, but why for instance would the US Airforce run subsurface systems? Wouldn't the army run subterrain systems?

None the less tunnel borers that are used commercially right now for most projectss are very dated technologies, they use steel and rubber parts that need replacement, when there are stronger and more long lasting materials.

It is very simple physics when all you need to do is calculate melting point, pressurization coefficients for land type, sensor systems to scan rock surface, since it is bedrock it is just dealing with a variety of different rock types of generally the same type.

The old borers also use humans rather than advanced intellgence systems and robotics. Frankly you are suporting old systems of doing things, you are living in the past.

In terms of the space elevator there are competing projectst, seatle, japan, eu, and even google (google is a rumour however as part of its GOOGLE X future earth stuff).

Incineration of garbage is bad.

You just don't get that materials technology is still advancing and things cost prohibitive will become less and less costly as time proceeds. Carbon nanotubules will dramatically drop in price when chinese industry catches up. It will remove the need for other materials and even reduce the need for rare earth metals. Carbon is both very abundant, and something that we need to take from the atmosphere this one is a no brainer.

You don't see NTBM's due to noncompetition in the industries. NTBM's once they have approval to operate are more cost effecitve, but you don't make these things with junk steel and rubber. They are nuclear powered machines that require high carbon materials,you don't use steel when you can use materials like tungsten, you don't use rubber when you can use more powerful materials. The benefits of NTBM's is that they don't have to be connected to the surface, they don't need humans in them and they can operate much faster because they immediately deal with stury like concrete patching systems.

This tunnel isn't in an urban area, it is throuhg the middle of nowhere there is no need to run things slow to prevent cave in, just do the thing, it is also through solid rock which makes it easier than dealing with sand dirt or gravel.

Read up the melting temeprature of rock, the operation of these things is damned simple to understand if you understand simple physics. Getting a micronuclear reactor was more difficult because they weren't being commercially produced 10 years ago, you better beleive they existed and were used by the US military though.

If China can build 10 cities (able to hold 60 million people nearly 2x the population of Canada) in a year you better beleive they will be able to build a space elevators.... take the train.

Sadly I can't provide many details because most of the stuff is classified materials, even still classified if not related to other projects that are top secret. even though the work started as far back as the 1950's and entered the drawing board in the 70's with complete systems, and went into production on a few test systems, which were reported to not be completely without failure.

However the little information that existed is 20-40 years old now on those projects.

Here is a more recent article.

http://cedb.asce.org/cgi/WWWdisplay.cgi?159334

Edited August 13, 2012 by NUMBERED

[MiddleClassCentrist]

They have a massive tunnel through the core of the planet in Total Recal.

Wasn't that film fairly realistic?

[wyly]

They have a massive tunnel through the core of the planet in Total Recal.

Wasn't that film fairly realistic?

there ya go, enbridge can just drill a hole straight through to china and they can just pour the bitumen into the hole and it'll go right to china...

[NUMBERED]

there ya go, enbridge can just drill a hole straight through to china and they can just pour the bitumen into the hole and it'll go right to china...

A tunnel to china is a little more difficult because of a 1000m threshold before rock collapse is possible that is why the line needs to be kept not to deep but deep enough and definately in solid rock and not near any fault lines or major cleaves or vents.