Do you feel as we feel?

[betsy]

This was inspired by the discussion I had with American Woman in The Bible. It started when I described how I feel after having become a born-again Christian.

Betsy:

"and I feel a kind of tranquil peace deep in my heart. It must be that when I decided to hand over my life to God, to do as He pleases with it...to trust Him, it's like a heavy burden has been lifted from my shoulders. I don't feel depressed anymore.

Stress can cause a lot of havoc on one's health."

I'm not saying that once you become a born-again, that there'll be no more hardships and trials. Probably there'll be even more of those .....but it's the outlook of the Christian who'll go through those hardships and trials, the strength, the no-fear attitude.....the ability to find joy even in the midst of those hardships....those are the amazing capabilities of a Christian who'd trustingly handed everything to God.

American Woman:

It took awhile to get there, but it seems to me you are acknowledging that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al, as well as atheists, can be just as at peace with life as you are - and that one needn't be a Christian to accept God in their lives.

Betsy:

Well I can't help but make it into Christianity since I'm speaking about my own experience - tranquil peace and inner joy - brought on by my God.

Well I guess I've answered your question. Let me print it again.

If they say they're happy the way they are....that they're at peace....who am I to say nay. It's their life. It's their choice. We've all been given our free will. Whether religious or not.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=1410

I have spoken too soon in my reply to American Woman.

After analysing what was said, I think I can imagine how others who belong to other religions may feel the tranquil peace/joy brought on by faith (basing it on how I feel)....but I cannot imagine how atheists could possibly reach the kind of tranquil peace that a religious person can.

For Christians, it is the confidence in knowing that earthly life (and all the pains and struggles that come along with it), is only temporary ....that eternal life awaits. Hence, it's the religious outlook of the Christian who'll go through those hardships and trials, the strength, the no-fear attitude.....the ability to find joy even in the midst of those hardships, which will carry him through. Thus in that humble acceptance of God's control over our lives (trusting that He always do what He knows is best for us), the heavy burden is lifted off our shoulders, and we have this tranquil peace.

How can atheists be able to feel that way? Can someone explain.

Edited August 3, 2012 by betsy

[Shady]

I hope you're prepared for a frenzy of attacks.

[betsy]

I hope you're prepared for a frenzy of attacks.

Some will be furious....but I'm really curious. I'm putting on my helmet, preparing for the bashings.

[Shady]

Some will be furious....but I'm really curious. I'm putting on my helmet, preparing for the bashings.

Well, I wish you luck. It's definitely an interesting question. I'm just not sure they're mature enough to discuss it rationally. You'll be blamed for the crusades in no time. They get quite emotional. Anyways, I don't want to hijack your thread, so I'll be quiet now.

[msj]

How the hell would I know.

Never have been religious so have no idea how that feels.

Probably feels like cognitive dissonance if my reading of the Bible, Koran and Catholic Catechism is anything to go by.

But I do get a peaceful easy feeling when I get a massage, during my non-busy time of year at work, when the weather is suitable for what activity I'm doing (miserable when I run and sunny when I cycle), and when I sit in a hammock to listen to the Eagles "Peaceful Easy Feeling."

Occasionally I even feel that the world is working exactly the way it should be; until some tsunami wipes out a few thousand people and I come back to my senses.

But I've learned to stop worrying and love the bomb and don't need no god(s) to do it.

To Betsys' horror, it could be the Tao Te Ching I read and the yoga and meditation I practice that has led to this feeling.

Or it could be some bad bluegrass sh!t from the '70's.

[cybercoma]

How can atheists be able to feel that way? Can someone explain.

They can't. They're not human.

[betsy]

How the hell would I know.

Never have been religious so have no idea how that feels.

Probably feels like cognitive dissonance if my reading of the Bible, Koran and Catholic Catechism is anything to go by.

But I do get a peaceful easy feeling when I get a massage, during my non-busy time of year at work, when the weather is suitable for what activity I'm doing (miserable when I run and sunny when I cycle), and when I sit in a hammock to listen to the Eagles "Peaceful Easy Feeling."

I understand the easy-feeling peacefulness that you mean. I had those (during my non-christian years), and I still enjoy and have that easy-feeling listening to music.

Occasionally I even feel that the world is working exactly the way it should be; until some tsunami wipes out a few thousand people and I come back to my senses.

But I've learned to stop worrying and love the bomb and don't need no god(s) to do it.

Although I think the world is not exactly as it should, then again perhaps the world is being let to do what it wants to do, letting it seem to have control....and tsunamis and disasters are just a few reminders how truly helpless we are.

To Betsys' horror, it could be the Tao Te Ching I read and the yoga and meditation I practice that has led to this feeling.

Or it could be some bad bluegrass sh!t from the '70's.

How do you cope with grief? Losing a loved one?

A beautiful Christian film titled, "COURAGEOUS" showed a very Christian way of coping. No, it wasn't seeing a grief therapist.

[betsy]

They can't. They're not human.

Really?

Well I think you're wrong. They are very human....and their Creator thinks so much of them.

That's what I know, according to the Authoritative Book. Of course, that's the Christian perspective.

But getting back to the topic, about you....are you saying you can't reach that level of tranquil peace?

Edited August 3, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Speaking of grief theraphy....what do they say during the session? What do they advise about coping? Anybody been to one?

[betsy]

Although the topic is directed to atheists (in the subtitle) because of the stark contrast between faith in God and faith in no-God, it will be interesting to hear from the skeptics/agnostics as well.

[BubberMiley]

As a born-again Christian, I am loving this realization that my soul is superior to other people's souls. I just revel in it for days on end.

[Shady]

As a born-again Christian, I am loving this realization that my soul is superior to other people's souls. I just revel in it for days on end.

Now you know how atheists feel about themselves in general.

[cybercoma]

Well I think you're wrong. They are very human....and their Creator thinks so much of them.

I was being sarcastic. And I'm sure not all of their parents think a lot of them.

[Bonam]

For Christians, it is the confidence in knowing that earthly life (and all the pains and struggles that come along with it), is only temporary ....that eternal life awaits. Hence, it's the religious outlook of the Christian who'll go through those hardships and trials, the strength, the no-fear attitude.....the ability to find joy even in the midst of those hardships, which will carry him through. Thus in that humble acceptance of God's control over our lives (trusting that He always do what He knows is best for us), the heavy burden is lifted off our shoulders, and we have this tranquil peace.

How can atheists be able to feel that way? Can someone explain.

Tranquil peace, acceptance of whatever comes, resignation to hardships, etc, are not necessary mental states. The world is not built by people who humbly accept their lot in life. Greatness is an attribute of those who seek to change the world, who are not content with things as they are, who don't sit back and endure but go out and try to make things better.

[AngusThermopyle]

As a born-again Christian, I am loving this realization that my soul is superior to other people's souls. I just revel in it for days on end.

ROFL +1 post.

Now I'm laughing so hard my peacefull easy feeling is all gone...thanks!

[Guest American Woman]

...Thus in that humble acceptance of God's control over our lives (trusting that He always do what He knows is best for us), the heavy burden is lifted off our shoulders, and we have this tranquil peace.

This reminds me of a Christian man I knew a while back who had three children, a fourth on the way, and a low paying job. He wasn't out looking for a better job, but he wasn't worried because he knew "God would provide." I had to bite my tongue to stop myself from pointing out that God isn't providing, the taxpayers are. He should have carried a heavier burden than he was instead of allowing it to be lifted from his shoulders - and onto the taxpayers' shoulders.

Anyway, all of your talk of God's "control" reminds me also of this quote - "Trust in God but row away from the rocks."

[Shady]

I was being sarcastic.

Oh. Good one.

[The_Squid]

Some people get peace from God. Some good Christians are tormented and not at peace at all. People find peace in all sorts of ways and some never do. Some don't take the time to look. Religiosity is not an indicator of a peaceful mind.

I think it's arrogant to think that you've found "the way" and that others must not be able to because they are not your brand of religious. In fact, someone who would think that way is probably not really at peace at all, judging by that sort of world view.

[Guest American Woman]

Some people get peace from God. Some good Christians are tormented and not at peace at all. People find peace in all sorts of ways and some never do. Some don't take the time to look. Religiosity is not an indicator of a peaceful mind.

I think it's arrogant to think that you've found "the way" and that others must not be able to because they are not your brand of religious. In fact, someone who would think that way is probably not really at peace at all, judging by that sort of world view.

I agree with you. The flip side is also arrogant. It's arrogant to think that one knows the answer to an age-old question; 'there is no god' and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't enlightened. When people compare God to a spaghetti monster/Irish fairy/et al I think what you had to say applies to them as well. Same coin, different sides.

[Bonam]

When people compare God to a spaghetti monster/Irish fairy/et al I think what you had to say applies to them as well.

The "spaghetti monster" or any such analogy is just that, an analogy. The point is it's something for which there is no scientific evidence. In that sense, believing in a god as described in the bible really is no different than believing in any other proposition that has no supporting evidence. But if you don't like that analogy, how is belief in Yahweh different than belief in Zeus or Odin?

The answer that billions of people hold this belief and that this alone makes it worth respecting is not a viable argument. Many people can hold a belief that is unjustifiable or even demonstrably incorrect.

[Moonlight Graham]

The "spaghetti monster" or any such analogy is just that, an analogy. The point is it's something for which there is no scientific evidence. In that sense, believing in a god as described in the bible really is no different than believing in any other proposition that has no supporting evidence. But if you don't like that analogy, how is belief in Yahweh different than belief in Zeus or Odin?

The answer that billions of people hold this belief and that this alone makes it worth respecting is not a viable argument. Many people can hold a belief that is unjustifiable or even demonstrably incorrect.

100% correct.

[betsy]

Tranquil peace, acceptance of whatever comes, resignation to hardships, etc, are not necessary mental states. The world is not built by people who humbly accept their lot in life. Greatness is an attribute of those who seek to change the world, who are not content with things as they are, who don't sit back and endure but go out and try to make things better.

Please do not think that the Christian just have to sit back under the apple tree and wait for the apple to fall on him.

The Christian always think that he/she has a role to fulfill, that he/she may be a tool for whatever what God wants to be done.

Are we Christians sitting back right now, contently accepting the way things are? Why do we keep on "preaching?"

Christians act upon decisions they make. If it didn't work out, we do not go all depressed and suicidal about it....it didn't work the way we planned because perhaps there is a better way to do it (according to God), or that we've made a mistake in doing it or in our decision altogether (yes we make mistakes). It may take the normal route, or the long-winded roundabout route in getting there.....but eventually, God's will prevails. It will always prevail. It may not even be what we hoped to achieve or the place we want to be....there's always a reason why. You'd get a glimpse of that reason in hindsight...and if you ask, sometimes God will tell you why.

Please remember, I'm talking about a Christian who has a personal relationship with his God (praying and trying his best to follow the teachings).

Edited August 4, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

This reminds me of a Christian man I knew a while back who had three children, a fourth on the way, and a low paying job. He wasn't out looking for a better job, but he wasn't worried because he knew "God would provide." I had to bite my tongue to stop myself from pointing out that God isn't providing, the taxpayers are. He should have carried a heavier burden than he was instead of allowing it to be lifted from his shoulders - and onto the taxpayers' shoulders.

Anyway, all of your talk of God's "control" reminds me also of this quote - "Trust in God but row away from the rocks."

Read my reply to Bonam.

Anyway, if he's getting by in a low-paying job....what makes you think he has to work double shift or look for a "better job?" What's "better" to you may not be "better" to him.

Perhaps his present job, although low-paying it may be (according to your standard), provides him with more time to see his children, and actually do his job parenting them!

It's all about priorities, isn't it?

Edited August 4, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Some people get peace from God. Some good Christians are tormented and not at peace at all.

What is a good Christian? Somebody who donates to charity? Treat his neighbors kindly? Feeling compassion to the downtrodden? Volunteers to help in anyway they can?

One need not be a Christian to do all those! You're talking about a good person.

To be a Christian is to believe in Jesus and try to follow His teachings....following the greatest two Commandments as explained by Christ. #1 on His downsized list, Loving God with all you heart, and with all your mind, and with all your soul. Love involves TRUST. You have to trust God. You have to glorify Him by showing you are dependent on Him!

People find peace in all sorts of ways and some never do. Some don't take the time to look. Religiosity is not an indicator of a peaceful mind.

But that's so easy to say. It's like a "soundbite." Give your own "testimony" how having no-God ( no one to turn to, nothing to live for ) could possibly have a tranquil peaceful feeling. I want to understand!

I think it's arrogant to think that you've found "the way" and that others must not be able to because they are not your brand of religious. In fact, someone who would think that way is probably not really at peace at all, judging by that sort of world view.

Changing a few words with "riches" and "fame" and "achievements".....Boy, in the real earthly world where materialism rules, that sounds like the usual whine from the "have-not."

..."You're not really at peace at all"...perhaps that's exactly why others find the Christian attitude as suggesting we are "superior" to others who don't have the faith in the Christian God? And that we are being "arrogant?" Perhaps it's not because we feel superior or arrogant...but rather you feel inferior?

Why do some have a negative reaction (to put it mildly) to someone who's preaching? Why do some place so much importance on wether they think or feel they're being "judged?" Could it be the problem isn't in the Christian at all....but rather in the person who's reacting?

Can you give me an explanation to that?

Edited August 4, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

The "spaghetti monster" or any such analogy is just that, an analogy. The point is it's something for which there is no scientific evidence. In that sense, believing in a god as described in the bible really is no different than believing in any other proposition that has no supporting evidence. But if you don't like that analogy, how is belief in Yahweh different than belief in Zeus or Odin?

The answer that billions of people hold this belief and that this alone makes it worth respecting is not a viable argument. Many people can hold a belief that is unjustifiable or even demonstrably incorrect.

Wait....you're hauling in the usual rebutt that we've dealt with several times before. We're not butting heads whether the Christian God is real or not. Whether He's real or not is definitely not the issue....unless you guys are trying to change the channel.

The point is: Even if He is not real (to atheist), he is very real to the Christian. It is that faith that a Christian has that his God is real which carries him through all the hardships and stark realities of life, that may mean he could be dying with terminal disease, or had just lost a loved one, or is going bankrupt, failed marriage/family life, that he's not like the successful people he sees around him, that he may be homeless or always living on the edges of poverty......his faith that these are just wordly stuff and he looks forward to the life beyond - as promised by his God - is his buoy in his earthly life.

What is your buoy?

Edited August 4, 2012 by betsy