DND mess

[punked]

Well, I've no doubt Harper is keeping a close watch on him. Also, trading McKay for Baird would only leave Baird's old role vulnerable to McKay's incompetence, possibly even more damaging to the country.

What's more, they are all politicians after all and my experience once again tells me that politicians don't worry so much about the job being done right and proper for the country as how they themselves APPEAR to the rest of the country! The ship might sink but as long as they looked like good officers they don't really care!

Remember, I lived through Bob Rae's term here in Ontario and now see pictures on the news of $180 million dollar power plant fiascos all for political advantage during an election. My sense of outrage has been blunted over the years. Bang your head against the wall long enough and you can't help but become a bit numb...

Harper has over 100 MPs are you telling me only 1 of them can do this job. Not a deep bench eh?

[Wild Bill]

Harper has over 100 MPs are you telling me only 1 of them can do this job. Not a deep bench eh?

Once again, you put words in my mouth and twist my meaning. I NEVER said that!

There are likely a lot of good choices. That's not relevant! You are insisting on looking at the situation in terms of having the best man for getting the job accomplished in the best manner. That is NOT the way things work in politics! To believe otherwise is to be naive in the extreme.

If we wanted the job done in the best and most cost-effective manner we would never allow the government to manage it! We would simply define the goals of a contract and turn it over to the private sector. If we were not happy with the results we could go to the courts to sort it out, like any contract.

[Guest Derek L]

So now we learn the reason that big truck purchase bid was cancelled at the very last minute. DND had, since it got permission to buy the trucks, added on so many bells and whistles it had almost doubled the price. They were going to let out bids on a $770 million contract when they had only gotten permission to spend $400.

Citizen

It's been obvious for some time that McKay is not the man to run DND. Whether he's an idiot or an absentee or just totally in the pockets of the generals and bureaucrats he seems largely oblivious to what's going on and incapable of reigning in his people.

An appropriate change would seem to be to have him and John Baird switch jobs. McKay seems tailor made for the wine and cheese party set, and the bureaucrats at DND really deserve John Baird. He's also been Harper's hatchet man for troublesome jobs since day one of this government, and getting control of these people (and firing lots of them) would seem to be something well within his capabilities.

To the article:

The Defence Department had received government approval in 2009 to move forward with the $430 million purchase of 1,500 off-the-shelf medium-sized trucks. But in subsequent years department and military officials began adding more capabilities to what they wanted in the vehicles, bumping the estimated cost to between $730 million and $800 million.

In other words, mine and IED protection……….those greedy bastards.

They also faced criticism from the auditor general for their purchase of Chinook helicopters, which will be based in Petawawa. That deal was supposed to cost $2 billion but the price tag ballooned to almost $5 billion according to the auditor general, after military officials started adding more capabilities.

Bullshit.

Either the Auditor General made a “mistake” or the media doesn’t understand what was included when DND received preliminary project approval in ‘06 and effective approval in ‘09:

http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201010_06_e_34289.html#ex6

The initial estimate didn’t include estimates for in-service support, which the initial submission mentioned……….When said price was included, the project “doubled” in cost.

[bush_cheney2004]

...In other words, mine and IED protection……….those greedy bastards.

Add-ons

DND will also buy key add-ons, including:

300 SMP armor protection systems. Every SMP truck must be able to accept the up-armoring kits, even if only a small percentage of them can be armored at any one time.

895 Specially Equipped Vehicles kits (such as mobile kitchens, offices and medical or dental stations): 145 for the MilCOTS 7400s, and the rest for SMP. DEW Engineering will lead the base SEV contract, and as of April 2012, Navistar reports that they had installed 35 SEVs on their 7400 series trucks.

There’s also a separate contract for “kitting” (modifying) the SEV base shelters. The RFP was released in October 2011, and an award is now expected in Fall 2012, with deliveries beginning in Summer 2013 and running to Summer 2016.

[Guest Derek L]

Add-ons

DND will also buy key add-ons, including:

300 SMP armor protection systems. Every SMP truck must be able to accept the up-armoring kits, even if only a small percentage of them can be armored at any one time.

895 Specially Equipped Vehicles kits (such as mobile kitchens, offices and medical or dental stations): 145 for the MilCOTS 7400s, and the rest for SMP. DEW Engineering will lead the base SEV contract, and as of April 2012, Navistar reports that they had installed 35 SEVs on their 7400 series trucks.

There’s also a separate contract for “kitting” (modifying) the SEV base shelters. The RFP was released in October 2011, and an award is now expected in Fall 2012, with deliveries beginning in Summer 2013 and running to Summer 2016.

And as was found during the Afghan and Iraq wars, when you “up-armour” a conventional vehicle, one puts more strain on the power train, suspension, brakes, fuel mileage etc…….So one might ask, why not just buy a truck with all that stuff already? Well……..

[cybercoma]

I've got an idea. Why don't we just stop having elections and let the bureaucrats do whatever the hell they want with our money.

[Guest Derek L]

I've got an idea. Why don't we just stop having elections and let the bureaucrats do whatever the hell they want with our money.

I’m confused since in this thread you say:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21166&pid=814030&st=105entry814030

If they are indeed using chemical weapons, this would warrant international involvement. As an armed conflict, they're required to follow the Geneva Convention. Any use of chemical agents on rebelling forces should automatically trigger international involvement.

Am I correct in assuming by international involvement, you would include Canada? You protest over the addition of armour kits to army trucks that would drastically increase the odds of the soldiers inside surviving an IED attack, but I assume, you would have no problem sending Canadian Forces into a NBC environment, an environment that they are even less so prepared to operate safely in.

As I've said prior:

NDP = No Defence Policy

[cybercoma]

I’m confused since in this thread you say:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=21166&pid=814030&st=105entry814030

Am I correct in assuming by international involvement, you would include Canada? You protest over the addition of armour kits to army trucks that would drastically increase the odds of the soldiers inside surviving an IED attack, but I assume, you would have no problem sending Canadian Forces into a NBC environment, an environment that they are even less so prepared to operate safely in.

As I've said prior:

NDP = No Defence Policy

You think I'm protesting over armour kits? Do I say anything about armour kits in that post (the one you replied to)? I don't even allude to them. Edited July 19, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest Derek L]

You think I'm protesting over armour kits? Do I say anything about armour kits in that post (the one you replied to)? I don't even allude to them.

Again, as I said, I confused, since here you say:

Why don't we just stop having elections and let the bureaucrats do whatever the hell they want with our money

So you’re fine with the bureaucrats, both civilian and military, within DND, adding armour kits to the requirements, after lessons learned in Afghanistan, to the medium military truck order?

[Army Guy]

As much as i'd like to blame it all on our government i think the military chain of command needs to share in this screw up, those military indivs involved in the contract know exactly what the contract regulations are and they disregarded them. this failure is on them.

These guys already know that our current MLVW fleet is junk, half the fleet is sitting rotting in storeage yards awaiting to be sold, most of these vehs in these yards are in such bad shape they can not be used for anything but scrap. the other half have got so many restrictions placed upon them the are ineffective, such as can not be driven on public roads but only in training areas, speed can not exceed 50 kms. can not haul troops or heavy loads.

The off the shelf MILCOT trucks we purchased were orginally for the reserves, they are great highway trucks, off road they suck A**,it's the first SMP truck that i've had to wear a helmet in as the ride is that rough. Anyways as per normal the regular force took most of that fleet away, to help ease the frustration of our main work horse fadding away to nothing. i've driven in some MLVW trucks with large rusted out spots on the floor, large enough to swallow a foot....well they are 30 years old what can we expect...30 years old , my question is why can we not afford to replace a simple piece of equipment such as a logistics truck, why do we have to wait 30 years to do so......if we can not handle this small, simple purchase we can forget about the F-35, ships...These procument guys who will never go to the field anyways don't care, if they did this project would not have taken so long, or become so complicated....now all they are doing is endangering the lives of the soldier that drive them...

Someones balls should be swinging from the doors to NDHQ, with a golden plaque below them to remind this procurement guys "this is what happens when you fuck it up....want to meet the owner of these balls well they work in the canteen, serving coffee"...

I eman it's bad enough we are having problems with existing contracts or programs due to budget retraints, but now we are doing it to our selfs...

If we have learned anything in the last 4 years, it should be crystal clear that our entire procurement process sucks...and needs to be restructured completely....

[WWWTT]

I would agree but he didn't remove him. The question is why, you can say a lot of Steven J Harper but I have never thought him to be one to cover up other peoples mistakes unless it could be tied back to him. Why hasn't he done with MacKay yet? The only thing I think of is MacKay knows something.

If it was not for MacKay stabbing the PC's in the back,Harper would have never become PM.

If Harper took a swing at MacKay it might boomerang on him hard.

MacKay's solid position could be a sign that the PC and reform alliance may still be fragile?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Anyhow, Harper really has little or no choice. If McKay were truly competent there are other more high profile cabinet posts but he's not, so what else can he do with McKay?

OMG I agree!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Maybe this statement is true but to suffer fools one of the biggest part of the budget in this country is not only bad governance but dangerous. I wouldn't think any debt should be worth the mistakes that have been made at DND over the last few years. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Harper is only choosing the lesser of two evils.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

If we wanted the job done in the best and most cost-effective manner we would never allow the government to manage it! We would simply define the goals of a contract and turn it over to the private sector. If we were not happy with the results we could go to the courts to sort it out, like any contract.

Thank God I only agreed with you once!

All is right again and balance has returned.I can go back to bed now.

WWWTT

[Wild Bill]

Thank God I only agreed with you once!

All is right again and balance has returned.I can go back to bed now.

WWWTT

Hey, a busted clock is right twice a day!

[Wild Bill]

If we have learned anything in the last 4 years, it should be crystal clear that our entire procurement process sucks...and needs to be restructured completely....

I used to deal with DND procurement. I truly believed that all the government people involved had heads that zipped up the back!

I sold them electronic parts. My first go around was in 1978. The government sent out requests for quote, that had a phone book's worth of pages to be filled out. We were expected to fill out at least half the pages to NOT quote!

The first order I won was for 100 integrated circuits. They were cheap, so we were talking about $50 or so. Not a lot, even in late 70's dollars. Still, I was happy to win the order, until things got ugly!

We shipped out the order and a few MONTHS later it was returned. The reason given was that we had incorrectly packaged the ICs for anti-static protection. I was confused, since our shipping methods of packaging were leading edge up to date and none of our thousands of orders to other customers had ever been rejected before, by anyone!

So I went back to that phone book of paperwork and found buried inside instructions for packaging that had been obsolete for over 10 years in private industry! They were appropriate to the first ICs that had been invented, with techniques also primitive by contemporary standards. They required each individual IC to be wrapped in foil and other materials, involving hours of manual labour.

To satisfy the order we paid someone to spend the hours repackaging the ICs but I learned that on any quotes for the government you had to inflate your price dramatically, to cover the extra costs of handling a government order, if not to pay for the hours spent even quoting orders that you might not even receive!

It's as if DND WANTED to waste money! Many vendors simply refused to quote, since the total potential of government orders was mice nuts compared to the everyday orders they received from private industry. It just wasn't worth the effort! That left the smaller vendors free to inflate the prices as high as they wanted. DND didn't know or care what was going on. They were just happy to have someone return a quote with all the paperwork filled out to their satisfaction, so they could buy the part or parts.

At the end of the 80's I worked for a small department in Westinghouse that among other things supplied parts for aircraft. I watched DND fight with the guy at the desk beside me for nearly 3 years over a generator for an F-5 jet. Even at the end of the 80's one would expect there were precious few of these still flying. My partner had scoured the world and had located perhaps the last such part available in the free world and had quoted it. However, he refused to agree to a condition that we would GUARANTEE to have such a part available for the next 20 years! If he had agreed to this condition, Westinghouse would have been in a default position, subject to penalties. That would have been a very stupid thing to do!

DND just could not accept this! First the letters came and finally phone calls, from low level buys right up to high level managers. They did not care that they were making a request not just unprofitable in the extreme for their vendor but likely literally impossible to deliver. They wanted to be assured that they could keep an aircraft already over 30 years old in the air for the next 20, without the cost of stocking their OWN spares!

Eventually they gave up, as my compadre was sticking to his guns. I never knew what they had done at their end but one thing I did know, DND procurement was not in the "real world" and moreover, cost the taxpayer FAR more than it had to yet delivered less than the private sector. When I was selling those ICs I mentioned I had naively believed that "mil spec" meant higher quality. In actual fact, at least in the new high tech electronics world, most commercial specs exceeded mil spec. This was dramatically shown when the Space Shuttles were introduced. By that time, many manufacturers had stopped offering mil spec'd versions of their products, since it cost them more money than their potential sales were worth. Also, they did not support old versions of parts like computer ICs, since they were offering new and more powerful ICs within not just a few years but often within a few months!

So Intel stopped offering mil spec versions of its microprocessors. The Shuttles flew with '286 computer chips, the same as in an IBM-AT personal computer! The rest of the world was using Pentiums but NASA was bound by its paperwork and primitive, outmoded methods to keep using obsolete computing power.

At least I knew that the American system was no better than ours! Misery likes company, I guess. Still, I have often wondered what would happen if a political rival country or terrorist organization chose to challenge our military in such areas. They could do FAR more advanced stuff for FAR less money, with parts that worked the same and were of higher quality even though they had commercial spec's.

I have been out of that world for a while but I hear that the military has slowly been changing it's ways. Apparently you can get an entire electronic unit mil spec'd with no need to have certification of every resistor and part inside. That at least makes a little more sense.

However, I'll lay even money they will screw that up too!

[cybercoma]

So you’re fine with the bureaucrats, both civilian and military, within DND, adding armour kits to the requirements, after lessons learned in Afghanistan, to the medium military truck order?

Oh. You actually took that seriously? That was sarcasm, as it's quite possibly the stupidest position anyone could possibly take.

Since you're quite obviously missing the point, let me tell you that it's not about the armour kits. It's about the way our government spends our money. Bureaucrats don't get a blank cheque to do whatever the hell they want with it. Only our elected representatives in Parliament get to decide how our taxes are spent. That's ALL of Parliament too, not just the cabinet.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cybercoma

[bush_cheney2004]

....So Intel stopped offering mil spec versions of its microprocessors. The Shuttles flew with '286 computer chips, the same as in an IBM-AT personal computer! The rest of the world was using Pentiums but NASA was bound by its paperwork and primitive, outmoded methods to keep using obsolete computing power.

Two points about this otherwise wonderful rant:

1) As a former U.S. DoD contractor for weapons systems, personal experience with parts buyers and vendors included all manner of headaches because of non-compliance to technical data package print and parts list requirements. Components and subsystems would fail burn-in, vibration testing, shock, temperature cycling, salt & dust exposure, hermeticity, RF hardening, etc., because of inferior (cheaper) substitute parts. It was amazing how non-technical buyers could rationalize procuring substitute parts because of price and/or schedule pressure. We would have to write waiver requests for government approval to use the non-spec parts.

2) More importantly, the reason why NASA's and other critical government systems insisted upon like rated parts, even if obsolete, was because the MTBF reliabilities and man-ratings for the systems were based on the original design specifications and completed testing. Changing a space shuttle CPU and/or mission software takes an extraordinary amount of work and re-certification.

Buying COTS parts and subsystems is fine when the original design is robust enough to do so or doesn't require anything better, otherwise engineering and manufacturing require something else to get the job done reliably over years and decades of depot storage and repair.

[Topaz]

I'm wondering if Canada can't afford these trucks, planes subs etc and this is all a stalling measure. I've read that to build that bridge in the Windsor-Detroit area, to get it done, the Tories has sais they ( taxpayers) will pay for it because Michigan does have the money and the cost will go up to 5 Bil., which we won't have until ALL the government cuts under way are done. So, the cuts for OAS is for a bridge?

[Argus]

In other words, mine and IED protection……….those greedy bastards.

I don't care if they were for toilets. They asked for $430 million to buy trucks. They got permission to spend that money. Then they designed a bidding contest for an $800 million contract. That's not the way you run procurement, okay? I was in purchasing for the government for a while and if I'd done something like this I'd have had my ass kicked.

[cybercoma]

I'm wondering if Canada can't afford these trucks, planes subs etc and this is all a stalling measure. I've read that to build that bridge in the Windsor-Detroit area, to get it done, the Tories has sais they ( taxpayers) will pay for it because Michigan does have the money and the cost will go up to 5 Bil., which we won't have until ALL the government cuts under way are done. So, the cuts for OAS is for a bridge?

The bridge is absolutely necessary, but Michigan/Washington should be footing their share of the bill.

[cybercoma]

I don't care if they were for toilets. They asked for $430 million to buy trucks. They got permission to spend that money. Then they designed a bidding contest for an $800 million contract. That's not the way you run procurement, okay? I was in purchasing for the government for a while and if I'd done something like this I'd have had my ass kicked.

Derek has argued in the past that bureaucrats ought to be able to spend as much as they want on whatever the hell they want. No. Not social services bureaucrats. They're scum. The military, however, should be able to buy whatever the hell it wants without any oversight whatsoever.

[Wild Bill]

Two points about this otherwise wonderful rant:

1) As a former U.S. DoD contractor for weapons systems, personal experience with parts buyers and vendors included all manner of headaches because of non-compliance to technical data package print and parts list requirements. Components and subsystems would fail burn-in, vibration testing, shock, temperature cycling, salt & dust exposure, hermeticity, RF hardening, etc., because of inferior (cheaper) substitute parts. It was amazing how non-technical buyers could rationalize procuring substitute parts because of price and/or schedule pressure. We would have to write waiver requests for government approval to use the non-spec parts.

2) More importantly, the reason why NASA's and other critical government systems insisted upon like rated parts, even if obsolete, was because the MTBF reliabilities and man-ratings for the systems were based on the original design specifications and completed testing. Changing a space shuttle CPU and/or mission software takes an extraordinary amount of work and re-certification.

Buying COTS parts and subsystems is fine when the original design is robust enough to do so or doesn't require anything better, otherwise engineering and manufacturing require something else to get the job done reliably over years and decades of depot storage and repair.

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression. I did NOT mean that regular commercial grade electronic parts were superior in quality to mil or aerospace spec's! There are higher grades of commercial specs, which are much cheaper and meet or exceed mil specs. The reason they are cheaper is simple - volume! The military and aerospace market is just to small by comparison.

This doesn't matter if you are talking an expensive part, like a flywheel in a tank tread. That part is going to cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars. A resistor might cost a penny! ONLY the military would use the same system with a penny part as with a truly expensive one.

I know for a fact that most engineers would have no problem spec'ing in parts with higher commercial specs. I know - I've worked beside many of them! To an engineer, as long as it is of high enough quality for his needs that is enough.

The problem is in paperwork! The military NEVER wants to change its paperwork! So instead it keeps demanding obsolete parts! The cost of NASA performing recertification is NASA's problem! If the manufacturing industry finds that its just not profitable to supply NASA with parts certified, then too damn bad for NASA!

NASA never did change their specs. What they did was to start paying third parties to test and qualify the commercial versions of parts like Intel microprocessor chips. This is very expensive to the American taxpayer but hey, it's their NASA! If they don't like it then they should change it!

The ultimate example of military tomfoolery with electronic parts has to deal with common resistors, the cheapest and most basic electronic part ever made. Originally, they were made of a paste of carbon particles, pressed and cut to size and value. For this reason they were referred to as "carbon composition" resistors and they were the only type available in that wattage class until the 60's.

The military had certified these resistors all along and there were lots of resistor vendors who would play with them but in the 60's someone invented a better resistor using a deposited film technique. These resistors were thus called "carbon film" and in no time flat they had replaced the old carbon comp style. They were cheaper, more reliable, more durable and most important, if they were overloaded they simply opened up. Carbon comps were notorious for bursting into flame! Plus, carbon comp resistors could drift wildly from their proper value as they aged.

Pretty soon, ONLY the military market was still using carbon comps! So the number of resistor companies that would make carbon comps began to drop. By the 90's, the only one left was Allen Bradley.

I remember those days quite well because I worked for the sole remaining distributor of Allen Bradley carbon comp mil spec resistors. I called on the Litton, Garret/Allied Signal and other such accounts and sold them carbon comp resistor for a ferocious price! A commercial version might sell in thousand lot qtys for a penny. The mil spec I sold to Litton went for a dollar! I kid you not!

Finally, the market was too small even for a sole source supplier and AB decided to pack it in. They did everything they could for those mil accounts. They gave 2 years notice, allowing their customers to make a "lifetime buy" before their machines were turned off.

Virtually ALL of my mil customers didn't do a damn thing to get ready! When the deadline came and went, they just started crying!

They cried for about a year and then finally the process began to get the carbon film resistors qualified. It was just SO typical!

I have always understood that the military needs to have confidence in the quality and reliability of the electronic parts. People's lives may depend on them!

I just have no respect for the boneheaded ways the military would attempt to accomplish such goals! If they had involved people who understood the way the world had changed and the nuances of the specific industry they could have come up with much more positive AND LESS EXPENSIVE ways to accomplish their goals!

The world was not and did not stay the same to suit the military. A wise old man once said that you should never try to be a rock against the waves. You will only get ground down!

Much better to be a surfboard!

[Wild Bill]

Derek has argued in the past that bureaucrats ought to be able to spend as much as they want on whatever the hell they want. No. Not social services bureaucrats. They're scum. The military, however, should be able to buy whatever the hell it wants without any oversight whatsoever.

There is a big difference between an overseer and a backseat driver, especially a back seat driver who has no idea of how to drive himself!

[cybercoma]

There is a big difference between an overseer and a backseat driver, especially a back seat driver who has no idea of how to drive himself!

What's your point? As Argus said....

They asked for $430 million to buy trucks. They got permission to spend that money. Then they designed a bidding contest for an $800 million contract.