Problems with MIgrant Temp Workers.....

[madmax]

They create demand for housing, for food, for shelter, for services that generates economic activity.

No, a company that has work creates the demand for labour, which creates the demand for services. A temp worker stays in a multiperson housing shelter as does someone from NFLD. The person from NFLD will contribute more to the Canadian Economy. The amount of business that is generated to service temp workers is marginal compared to a fully paid employee.

Unless you think $600 per month for a welder in fort mcmurray is a fair wage and should be the standard for Canadian Welder wages and one must believe that that $600 even if spent in Canada is marginal compared to the $4800 wages one should receive at minimum.

This is the whole point - it's not a zero sum game.

Here's the other thing to take into account - the jobs that they do take generate economic activity, and great profits, for those who employ them in many cases.

You can't find a programmer to work for $35K, or a cook to work at a fancy restaurant for minimum wage unless you hire an immigrant who does this work and generates profits with his/her labour.

You are mistaking a working immigrant for a Foreign Migrant Temp agency Worker.

I also don't believe in two tiered labour.

Edited July 19, 2012 by madmax

[madmax]

No, my statement is true regardless of the number of jobs. It need not be fixed.

X = number of jobs, Y = number of workers. The wage paid for a job can be roughly modeled to be a positively correlated function of X/Y.

In order for wages not to drop as we get more workers, the presence of those extra workers must inherently generate enough extra jobs (that would not otherwise exist) to keep the ratio X/Y at least constant. When the number of jobs and workers is approximately equal (as it is when unemployment rates are a few % as they are now), that means that for X/Y to stay constant, each extra worker must create the demand for one extra job that would not otherwise exist.

A temporary worker brought in to do a low wage job such as fruit-picking (as in wyly's example) which pays them just enough to afford food and shelter and maybe to send a bit of money back home does not create enough extra demand for a whole additional job to be created.

I think I am with you on this....

[carepov]

Just from this thread:

There is nothing wrong with having a temp workers system, as long as we make sure that we're training Canadians for the jobs we need and the temp workers aren't used to undercut wages. Bringing in 250,000 a year is way over the top. Still better than bringing in all those immigrants for jobs that aren't there, tho.

I did dome research and found that salaries in Canada are increasing:

"The average salary in Canadian dollars has risen by 10 to 15 percent since 2007."

http://www.livingin-canada.com/work-salaries-wages-canada.html

The chart on page 9 shows an impressive rise of Median after-tax income from 1997 to 2007

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-202-x/75-202-x2007000-eng.pdf

Your fears about migrant workers pushing down wages seem to unsupported by actual increases in Canadian wages.

[carepov]

No, my statement is true regardless of the number of jobs. It need not be fixed.

X = number of jobs, Y = number of workers. The wage paid for a job can be roughly modeled to be a positively correlated function of X/Y.

In order for wages not to drop as we get more workers, the presence of those extra workers must inherently generate enough extra jobs (that would not otherwise exist) to keep the ratio X/Y at least constant. When the number of jobs and workers is approximately equal (as it is when unemployment rates are a few % as they are now), that means that for X/Y to stay constant, each extra worker must create the demand for one extra job that would not otherwise exist.

A temporary worker brought in to do a low wage job such as fruit-picking (as in wyly's example) which pays them just enough to afford food and shelter and maybe to send a bit of money back home does not create enough extra demand for a whole additional job to be created.

This may be true is some cases but you cannot apply this formula across the board. Here are two hypothetical examples:

1. Suncor calculates their return on investment (ROI) for a project in the oil sands. The project will employ 1,000 workers. If no migrant workers are used the ROI is 10-15% and the project is not worth the risk. If 500 migrant workers are used then the ROI is 20% and the project goes ahead. Migrant workers created Canadian jobs!

2. Maple Leaf in Brandon, MB is bidding on a contract for packaged meat to export to the US. The contract would require 500 full-time production employees + support staff. The cost when using only Canadian workers is too high (if you can even find them). If 300 migrant workers are used the costs become competitive, they win the bid and again migrant workers create Canadian jobs!

[cybercoma]

No, a company that has work creates the demand for labour, which creates the demand for services.

This sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

[madmax]

I did dome research and found that salaries in Canada are increasing:

Me too.. Stats Canada...

We show, along with numerous previous studies, that the wage gap between young workers and their older counterparts has risen substantially over the last two decades but that the wage gap between university graduates and other workers has shown little change. More important, we show that, within age groups, wages of newly hired male and female employees - those with two years of seniority or less - have fallen substantially relative to those of others. Second, in the private sector, the fraction of new employees employed in temporary jobs has risen substantially, increasing from 11% in 1989 to 21% in 2004. Among employees with one year of seniority or less, the incidence of temporary work rose from 14% in 1989 to 25% in 2004. Third, pension coverage has fallen among men of all ages and among females under 45. Taken together, these findings suggest that Canadian firms (existing or newly-born) have responded to growing competition within industries and from abroad by reducing their wage offers for new employees, by offering temporary jobs to a growing proportion of them and by offering less often pension plans that guarantee defined benefits at the time of retirement.

[madmax]

This sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

If an employer has no work, then thers is no demand for labour.... If there is work, there is a demand for labour, and that Labour force wll demand services...such as housing, food, drugs and hookers if they are far enough north lol...

[madmax]

2. Maple Leaf in Brandon, MB is bidding on a contract for packaged meat to export to the US. The contract would require 500 full-time production employees + support staff. The cost when using only Canadian workers is too high (if you can even find them). If 300 migrant workers are used the costs become competitive, they win the bid and again migrant workers create Canadian jobs!

Sounds like pimping to me

[blueblood]

Sounds like pimping to me

So those migrant workers should make zero dollars staying in old country?

Would you rather have the plant in Brandon shut down because labour costs are too high?

Like it or not cheap labor is an important part of the economy, it's a big reason why the USA and eastern Canada is in the tank right now.

[madmax]

So those migrant workers should make zero dollars staying in old country?

Would you rather have the plant in Brandon shut down because labour costs are too high?

Like it or not cheap labor is an important part of the economy, it's a big reason why the USA and eastern Canada is in the tank right now.

No I said that sounds like pimping. And it is.

Why?

Because that is NOT what is happenning at Maple Leaf Foods.

The Union negotiated a contract that accepts more foreign workers under the union rates. The contract also holds Maple Leaf Foods responsible for citizenship of the Foreign workers.

The contract also includes new rights and protections for temporary foreign workers. Three-quarters of the meatpacking company's workforce are immigrants, the majority of whom are fast-tracked into the country under Manitoba's provincial nominee program, which began in 1998.

Maple Leaf Foods, which processes 86,000 hogs each week at its Brandon plant, has had trouble recruiting local workers. It spends about $6,000 to recruit and train each foreign worker it brings in.

"This is not a temporary foreign worker program for us. It's just an avenue to allow them to get into the country," said plant manager Leo Collins

as for wages being to high... well...

The 2,300 workers voted 78 per cent in favour of the five-year deal, which includes wage increases and job reclassifications that will result in pay raises of up to nine per cent as well as improvements to the pension plan.

There was a 78% turnover rate now its 11%.

This is in no way similar to the Chinese workers in Fort McMurray.

It is in no way similar to the way it was presented above.

The companys goals are to train and retain.

So, if I had to answer your question under the set of circumstances you supported as described previously, I would continue to call it pimping. I would consider the company and its agency exploiters, I would kiss the contract goodbye and those workers could stay in their country.

Had that consideration been given to the two dead Chinese Tradesmen, working for table scraps in Fort McMurray, they would be alive. Infact, any Foreign temporary worker, working here for less money then the Provincial Labour standard should be sent packing home and the Agency lose all rights to supply labour to the province.

My memory is also not short.

The cause of the economic failure in the US is the result of Fraudulent Stock Market Practices, Ponzi Schemes, and a Prime Lending Rate on Mortgages that allowed the Banking Industry to increase their risk management by allowing those low wage earners to purchase homes in excess of their fiscal capacity.

Bankers who are the ones people go to for financial advice and money, gambled on making more money off low wage earners and lost when the interest rates went up.

The Financial Elite cause the Economic Collapse and required a bailout, but a jail cell would have sufficed.

Edited July 20, 2012 by madmax

[cybercoma]

If an employer has no work, then thers is no demand for labour.... If there is work, there is a demand for labour, and that Labour force wll demand services...such as housing, food, drugs and hookers if they are far enough north lol...

Well yeah, but the point here is how that demand for work is created. Any ideas? I don't mean to be pedantic here. It just seems you're missing the connection between immigration and jobs. Edited July 20, 2012 by cybercoma

[madmax]

Well yeah, but the point here is how that demand for work is created. Any ideas? I don't mean to be pedantic here. It just seems you're missing the connection between immigration and jobs.

Who is talking about immigration? This thread, is regarding Migrant Foreign Temp workers, with the intent to displace local labour market forces.

[madmax]

Like it or not cheap labor is an important part of the economy, it's a big reason why the USA and eastern Canada is in the tank right now.

Here are the wages for Manufacturing across the province I got from Stats Can.

manufacturing wage

$23.37 alberta

$21.34 sask

$21.08 bc

$19.61 ont

$17.89 que

$17.25 man

$16.53 ns

$15.37 nb

$14.75 nfld

$14.47 pei

Edited July 20, 2012 by madmax

[cybercoma]

Who is talking about immigration? This thread, is regarding Migrant Foreign Temp workers, with the intent to displace local labour market forces.

Replace "immigration" with "migrant temp workers" and the point stands.

[blueblood]

No I said that sounds like pimping. And it is.

Why?

Because that is NOT what is happenning at Maple Leaf Foods.

The Union negotiated a contract that accepts more foreign workers under the union rates. The contract also holds Maple Leaf Foods responsible for citizenship of the Foreign workers.

The contract also includes new rights and protections for temporary foreign workers. Three-quarters of the meatpacking company's workforce are immigrants, the majority of whom are fast-tracked into the country under Manitoba's provincial nominee program, which began in 1998.

Maple Leaf Foods, which processes 86,000 hogs each week at its Brandon plant, has had trouble recruiting local workers. It spends about $6,000 to recruit and train each foreign worker it brings in.

"This is not a temporary foreign worker program for us. It's just an avenue to allow them to get into the country," said plant manager Leo Collins

as for wages being to high... well...

The 2,300 workers voted 78 per cent in favour of the five-year deal, which includes wage increases and job reclassifications that will result in pay raises of up to nine per cent as well as improvements to the pension plan.

There was a 78% turnover rate now its 11%.

This is in no way similar to the Chinese workers in Fort McMurray.

It is in no way similar to the way it was presented above.

The companys goals are to train and retain.

So, if I had to answer your question under the set of circumstances you supported as described previously, I would continue to call it pimping. I would consider the company and its agency exploiters, I would kiss the contract goodbye and those workers could stay in their country.

Had that consideration been given to the two dead Chinese Tradesmen, working for table scraps in Fort McMurray, they would be alive. Infact, any Foreign temporary worker, working here for less money then the Provincial Labour standard should be sent packing home and the Agency lose all rights to supply labour to the province.

My memory is also not short.

The cause of the economic failure in the US is the result of Fraudulent Stock Market Practices, Ponzi Schemes, and a Prime Lending Rate on Mortgages that allowed the Banking Industry to increase their risk management by allowing those low wage earners to purchase homes in excess of their fiscal capacity.

Bankers who are the ones people go to for financial advice and money, gambled on making more money off low wage earners and lost when the interest rates went up.

The Financial Elite cause the Economic Collapse and required a bailout, but a jail cell would have sufficed.

It's not pimping it's really quite simple, either you work for x dollars or you don't work at all. The Chinese embraced that attitude and have enjoyed massive growth for almost 20 years. China is almost at the point where it's workers are making enough money to buy their own products because the competition to employ workers is intensifying. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Americans want cheap products or they can purchase more expensive products made in the USA. Guess who won that battle.

Same goes for the boys at maple leaf management has to get workers to work for as little as possible because margins in the pork industry are extremely tight. The problem with the location in Brandon is that it has to compete with the oil industry in western Manitoba and Saskatchewan and those new potash mines popping up in eastern Saskatchewan.

What's even more crazy is that we have all those people in eastern Canada who would rather protest and complain rather than move out west where the work is. I'm sorry, 15 bucks an hour and govt red tape still isn't low enough to attract industry from other competing areas. When the west was going through a tough time theynwould say you have to leave there and move to where the jobs are, well whats good for the goose... However what's working in north america's favor is that as Chinese wanges keep rising in china, it becomes more and more expensive to ship products from over there. This is where Mexico has been picking up the slack. It has been enjoying healthy growth for some time. The only way north America can get back to rapid growth is if there is some earth shattering innovation along the lines of the industrial revolution.

As for blaming the whole recession thing on the financial elite, every single person in the USA from the politicians, financiers, and general public needs to look in the mirror if they want to blame somebody. Greed and entitlement from everyone caused this recession.

[Michael Hardner]

No, a company that has work creates the demand for labour, which creates the demand for services. A temp worker stays in a multiperson housing shelter as does someone from NFLD. The person from NFLD will contribute more to the Canadian Economy. The amount of business that is generated to service temp workers is marginal compared to a fully paid employee.

Right, but it's not a straight-up substitution. They are more likely to hire lower cost resources if they're available. They may not hire at all if the resources are too expensive.

Unless you think $600 per month for a welder in fort mcmurray is a fair wage and should be the standard for Canadian Welder wages and one must believe that that $600 even if spent in Canada is marginal compared to the $4800 wages one should receive at minimum.

When did we start talking about 'fair' ?

Fairness has nothing to do with this.

You are mistaking a working immigrant for a Foreign Migrant Temp agency Worker.

I also don't believe in two tiered labour.

Fixed price labour doesn't really exist anywhere to my knowledge. Even Marxist countries paid different rates, I think.

[bush_cheney2004]

....As for blaming the whole recession thing on the financial elite, every single person in the USA from the politicians, financiers, and general public needs to look in the mirror if they want to blame somebody. Greed and entitlement from everyone caused this recession.

This is nonsense of course....you can't lay the "blame" for this or any recession on an entire nation's population.

[blueblood]

This is nonsense of course....you can't lay the "blame" for this or any recession on an entire nation's population.

Why not? "I want a giant ass house, I want 2 cars, I want a big tv, I want trips everywhere, etc. oh crap I only make 30,000 a year, oh wait I'll just borrow the money even though I can't afford to pay it back"

When you have a large proportion of people in your country with that attitude all the way from the president to a simple janitor, and the other proportion of the people in the country not telling them to smarten up, what do you expect.

Unfortunately the same thing is happening in Canada r.e. The housing bubble in Vancouver, Toronto et. Al.

Edited July 20, 2012 by blueblood

[cybercoma]

You're pretty much ignoring the fact that Canadian burrowing is starting to go down.

[blueblood]

You're pretty much ignoring the fact that Canadian burrowing is starting to go down.

Thank god! Because for a time we were right up with the Americans for personal debt. And the Canada bank act is hard on people who default.

[Canuckistani]

When did we start talking about 'fair' ?

Fairness has nothing to do with this.

Strange, we have all sorts of labor law that's based on the idea of fairness. How is it unfair to protect Canadian jobs and wages by not importing so many foreigners, be they temporary or not? Yes there has to be a balance to it, sometimes it makes sens to bring in people. But we don't do that, we bring in 500,000 people a year, no matter what's happening in our economy. If low wages is what makes the economy go around, why not get rid of the minimum wage, provisions for paying overtime and holidays, etc etc. Let's get rid of environmental laws, because they are a drag on business. Let's find the lowest level, and we can have growth like China does. Good times. Good times.

[blueblood]

Strange, we have all sorts of labor law that's based on the idea of fairness. How is it unfair to protect Canadian jobs and wages by not importing so many foreigners, be they temporary or not? Yes there has to be a balance to it, sometimes it makes sens to bring in people. But we don't do that, we bring in 500,000 people a year, no matter what's happening in our economy. If low wages is what makes the economy go around, why not get rid of the minimum wage, provisions for paying overtime and holidays, etc etc. Let's get rid of environmental laws, because they are a drag on business. Let's find the lowest level, and we can have growth like China does. Good times. Good times.

It was good times, the 1800s USA and Industrial revolution England are a testament to that, unless you would prefer everyone to be not working at all. Maybe if easterners would get off their high horse there wouldn't be a need for temp workers.

[Canuckistani]

It was good times, the 1800s USA and Industrial revolution England are a testament to that, unless you would prefer everyone to be not working at all. Maybe if easterners would get off their high horse there wouldn't be a need for temp workers.

You want to return to the 1800's? Will forelock tugging be making a comeback too?

[blueblood]

You want to return to the 1800's? Will forelock tugging be making a comeback too?

The policies at that time seemed to work well and north America became the richest area in the world. Why not do things that have worked in the past?

[guyser]

The policies at that time seemed to work well and north America became the richest area in the world. Why not do things that have worked in the past?

Ok...

Child labour, some as young as six working more than 12 hours a day.Six or seven days a week

Families coming into cities realizing all the family has to work, six days a week

Safety conditions were , well , there were none at all.

One could go on,but the point has been made.