Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 And yet, this is wrong. As simple as it sounds, it's wrong and it is known as "the lump of labour fallacy". It's only a fallacy if every immigrant seeking work creates a job just by being here. Just not true. Quote
carepov Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 If we don't have enough welders, let's train more instead of importing them. If the corps only pay min wage, let them go without workers, not accede to their pushing wages down. In times of labour shortages, wages are supposed to go up, not down. Two advantages of migrant temporary workers that seem to be overlooked on this thread are: 1. Speed - companies need these workers yesterday 2. Flexibility - many positions are temporary, especially in construction or resource sector where no one knows when workers will need to be laid off. If/when this happens migrant workers can be sent home. In the sectors where migrant workers are being hired - are wages for Canadians going down? You claim that they are, do you have any support for this claim? Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Two advantages of migrant temporary workers that seem to be overlooked on this thread are: 1. Speed - companies need these workers yesterday 2. Flexibility - many positions are temporary, especially in construction or resource sector where no one knows when workers will need to be laid off. If/when this happens migrant workers can be sent home. In the sectors where migrant workers are being hired - are wages for Canadians going down? You claim that they are, do you have any support for this claim? Just from this thread: The are temp workers but they were Tradesmen, Electrian and Welder IIRC. They were making $600 per month working in Fort McMurray. The "prevailing wage" is the wage offered, though. They can offer lower pay, and fill the job elsewhere if it isn't filled by Canadians. That's what happened to me. There is nothing wrong with having a temp workers system, as long as we make sure that we're training Canadians for the jobs we need and the temp workers aren't used to undercut wages. Bringing in 250,000 a year is way over the top. Still better than bringing in all those immigrants for jobs that aren't there, tho. Edited July 19, 2012 by Canuckistani Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 It's only a fallacy if every immigrant seeking work creates a job just by being here. Just not true. That's not true. MH is simply pointing out that Bonam's statement presumes the number of jobs in the market is fixed. This is a false premise. The amount of jobs available is variable. More immigrants means more consumers, thus creating more demand and, theoretically at least, more jobs. In a sense, every immigrant is a new consumer and creates jobs by growing the economy. Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 That's not true. MH is simply pointing out that Bonam's statement presumes the number of jobs in the market is fixed. This is a false premise. The amount of jobs available is variable. More immigrants means more consumers, thus creating more demand and, theoretically at least, more jobs. In a sense, every immigrant is a new consumer and creates jobs by growing the economy. It's just as false a premise to presume that every immigrant brings a job with them. Maybe they only bring 1/2 a job with them, for a net loss. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 It's just as false a premise to presume that every immigrant brings a job with them. Maybe they only bring 1/2 a job with them, for a net loss. You're approaching the criticism wrong. The track you're looking for is that globalism and the multinational nature of industry today means that those jobs aren't necessarily created in Canada. Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 You're approaching the criticism wrong. The track you're looking for is that globalism and the multinational nature of industry today means that those jobs aren't necessarily created in Canada. No, I'm not. We still have plenty of jobs in Canada that aren't or can't be outsourced. If we import more people than there are those jobs created in Canada, we increase unemployment. But I'll agree that it makes little sense to export jobs to Asia but then import a bunch of Asians to take jobs here that we shipped there. Michael's solution is for us to create high skill, high paying jobs in Canada. We'll we're not doing too well on that front. And immigrants as a group are doing poorly in the job market because even if they have the skills they aren't recognized here or their language problems prevent them from using those skills. It's just a mess all around. Quote
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 Just from this thread: but you don't know the specifics of the contract, does the company deduct cost of flying employees home and back on down times, does the company deduct for food and shelter expenses...and Canadians working in the same industry wages seem to be unaffected...welders that I know of talk of income between $30-$90 per hour depending on circumstances...and if your thinking $90 sounds unbelievable I can confirm it having paid much more for some trades...There is nothing wrong with having a temp workers system, as long as we make sure that we're training Canadians for the jobs we need and the temp workers aren't used to undercut wages. Bringing in 250,000 a year is way over the top. Still better than bringing in all those immigrants for jobs that aren't there, tho.it's over the top only if there are no jobs left vacant and there many that go unfilled by canadians,... after many, many months of trying to fill permanent warehouse/loader positions with locals my bro-in-law gave up and recruited two full time workers from India...if we relied on local labour to supply much of our farm produce we'd have food shortages or much higher food costs as a result of paying much higher wages required to entice canadians to pick fruit and vegatables... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 if we relied on local labour to supply much of our farm produce we'd have food shortages or much higher food costs as a result of paying much higher wages required to entice canadians to pick fruit and vegatables... We should totally do that. Why not just import cheap labor for all jobs - think of the savings to Canadians. Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 but you don't know the specifics of the contract, does the company deduct cost of flying employees home and back on down times, does the company deduct for food and shelter expenses...and Canadians working in the same industry wages seem to be unaffected...welders that I know of talk of income between $30-$90 per hour depending on circumstances...and if your thinking $90 sounds unbelievable I can confirm it having paid much more for some trades... By your example: $90/hr = $15,000 per month. These guys were paid $600. That's a lot of airline tickets, food and shelter. At $30 it's still $5000/month. Somebody is zooming somebody here. Quote
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 Michael's solution is for us to create high skill, high paying jobs in Canada. We'll we're not doing too well on that front. And immigrants as a group are doing poorly in the job market because even if they have the skills they aren't recognized here or their language problems prevent them from using those skills. It's just a mess all around. immigrants are only doing what they've always done...it was the same way when I was a kid, immigrants because of language barriers take the jobs locals will not because they're difficult, tedious, demeaning or low paying...the only difference is the source of the immigrants, when I was a kid it was western post war europe( my dad a former factory foreman beganworking as a labourer for 25 cents per hr pushing a wheelbarrow in his suit) now the labour source is asia...and the asians will all end up the same as the rest of us, the parents slog out a living at low wages and their kids gain and education and join the canadian mainstream, good education and good wages...no matter how much we whine it'll always be the same... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 immigrants are only doing what they've always done...it was the same way when I was a kid, immigrants because of language barriers take the jobs locals will not because they're difficult, tedious, demeaning or low paying...the only difference is the source of the immigrants, when I was a kid it was western post war europe( my dad a former factory foreman beganworking as a labourer for 25 cents per hr pushing a wheelbarrow in his suit) now the labour source is asia...and the asians will all end up the same as the rest of us, the parents slog out a living at low wages and their kids gain and education and join the canadian mainstream, good education and good wages...no matter how much we whine it'll always be the same... Don't know when you were a kid, but since the 1980's, when immigration shifted to Asia, immigrants have been much less successful, as a group, than previous. I mean read the papers, it's not the same as it ever was. Quote
Bonam Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 That's not true. MH is simply pointing out that Bonam's statement presumes the number of jobs in the market is fixed. This is a false premise. The amount of jobs available is variable. More immigrants means more consumers, thus creating more demand and, theoretically at least, more jobs. In a sense, every immigrant is a new consumer and creates jobs by growing the economy. No, my statement is true regardless of the number of jobs. It need not be fixed. X = number of jobs, Y = number of workers. The wage paid for a job can be roughly modeled to be a positively correlated function of X/Y. In order for wages not to drop as we get more workers, the presence of those extra workers must inherently generate enough extra jobs (that would not otherwise exist) to keep the ratio X/Y at least constant. When the number of jobs and workers is approximately equal (as it is when unemployment rates are a few % as they are now), that means that for X/Y to stay constant, each extra worker must create the demand for one extra job that would not otherwise exist. A temporary worker brought in to do a low wage job such as fruit-picking (as in wyly's example) which pays them just enough to afford food and shelter and maybe to send a bit of money back home does not create enough extra demand for a whole additional job to be created. Quote
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) Don't know when you were a kid, but since the 1980's, when immigration shifted to Asia, immigrants have been much less successful, as a group, than previous. I mean read the papers, it's not the same as it ever was. when was I kid? here's a clue I posted my parents were post war immigrants...it's exactly the same I was part of it I grew up with it, over the generations the situation hasn't changed only the source of the immigration...edit well maybe not quite the same...the average immigrant seems to be paid better now... Edited July 19, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 when was I kid? here's a clue I posted my parents were post war immigrants...it's exactly the same I was part of it I grew up with it, over the generations the situation hasn't changed only the source of the immigration... ad infinitum: they often fare much worse on the job market.In fact, it has been shown that the gap in wages between immigrants and the Canadian-born appears to be highest among university graduates. In other words, a higher education does not seem to protect immigrants from earning less than other educated Canadians. It has also been found that recent immigrants with higher educations earn less than immigrants who arrived in Canada earlier. http://www.yorku.ca/tiedi/doc/SummaryReport8.pdf Quote
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 ad infinitum: http://www.yorku.ca/tiedi/doc/SummaryReport8.pdf the average immigrant appears to be better educated then when my family came here, they get better jobs and better wages but starting any new job with language issues will result in lower wages at first, those lower wages don't affect fluent canadians...the situation hasn't changed it's still relative... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 the average immigrant appears to be better educated then when my family came here, they get better jobs and better wages but starting any new job with language issues will result in lower wages at first, those lower wages don't affect fluent canadians...the situation hasn't changed it's still relative... No, you're not reading it right. They're not catching up and surpassing native born Canadians the way they used to. It's a concern. But even if they did catch up - for what? Why are we importing masses of people to work in low paying jobs, depressing the wages of those jobs? We can train and educate our own people for the jobs we have - why take them from 3rd world countries who need them more than we do? Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 No, I'm not. We still have plenty of jobs in Canada that aren't or can't be outsourced. If we import more people than there are those jobs created in Canada, we increase unemployment. But I'll agree that it makes little sense to export jobs to Asia but then import a bunch of Asians to take jobs here that we shipped there. Michael's solution is for us to create high skill, high paying jobs in Canada. We'll we're not doing too well on that front. And immigrants as a group are doing poorly in the job market because even if they have the skills they aren't recognized here or their language problems prevent them from using those skills. It's just a mess all around. What you're continuing to ignore is that it's not a zero-sum game. The number of jobs are not fixed. This entire argument that "they're taking our jobs" ignores the fact that they're creating jobs just by being here and increasing our economy. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 No, my statement is true regardless of the number of jobs. It need not be fixed. X = number of jobs, Y = number of workers. The wage paid for a job can be roughly modeled to be a positively correlated function of X/Y. In order for wages not to drop as we get more workers, the presence of those extra workers must inherently generate enough extra jobs (that would not otherwise exist) to keep the ratio X/Y at least constant. When the number of jobs and workers is approximately equal (as it is when unemployment rates are a few % as they are now), that means that for X/Y to stay constant, each extra worker must create the demand for one extra job that would not otherwise exist. A temporary worker brought in to do a low wage job such as fruit-picking (as in wyly's example) which pays them just enough to afford food and shelter and maybe to send a bit of money back home does not create enough extra demand for a whole additional job to be created. It's not that simple. The number of jobs is a function of the number of workers. They're not wholly independent variables. That's the point. A larger population means a larger economy. Those workers buy goods and services, which in turn influences the number of jobs needed to deliver those. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 Look, MH posted the wiki article and I've reiterated it about 4 different ways already. There's no point in even having this discussion if people are more concerned about their own opinions being right than actually accepting what economists have shown is a fallacious argument and going from there. I've even outlined an appropriate argument that supports the anti-immigration argument and reconciles it with the lump of jobs fallacy. Quote
wyly Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 No, you're not reading it right. They're not catching up and surpassing native born Canadians the way they used to. It's a concern. But even if they did catch up - for what? Why are we importing masses of people to work in low paying jobs, depressing the wages of those jobs? We can train and educate our own people for the jobs we have - why take them from 3rd world countries who need them more than we do? the way they used too? sorry in the past unless you were an english immigrant you little chance of catching up to native born canadians unless you became self employed...and I personally know many immigrants who have surpassed native canadians through their own(self employed) hard work not relying on wages...we're importing people to work low paying jobs because canadians won't do them, working at mcdonalds, timmies, cleaning hotels, kitchen staff, construction labour, farm labour, have always and will always be the lowest paying jobs, they pay minimum wages, what wages do you see being depressed here? those jobs pay crap wages, always have, always will...and why should deny third world citizens to come here? don't we as canadians accept it as a basic human right to come and go where we please to live and work? it's none of our business to tell someone where they should live and work... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 the way they used too? sorry in the past unless you were an english immigrant you little chance of catching up to native born canadians unless you became self employed...and I personally know many immigrants who have surpassed native canadians through their own(self employed) hard work not relying on wages... we're importing people to work low paying jobs because canadians won't do them, working at mcdonalds, timmies, cleaning hotels, kitchen staff, construction labour, farm labour, have always and will always be the lowest paying jobs, they pay minimum wages, what wages do you see being depressed here? those jobs pay crap wages, always have, always will...and why should deny third world citizens to come here? don't we as canadians accept it as a basic human right to come and go where we please to live and work? it's none of our business to tell someone where they should live and work... There's no reason those jobs should be as low paid as they are. If employers had to compete to attract workers for them, the wages would go up. And you'd have to pay a bit more for your Timmies - so sad. Construction labor used to be a unionized, well paying job - exactly my point. Cleaners used to be paid much more than min wage, and some still are. No reason these jobs have to be so poorly paid. It's not about denying 3rd world citizens the chance to come here. It's about taking 3rd world citizens that the 3rd world govt went thru the expense to train and bleeding them off, a form of colonialism. And we don't need to be importing people, no matter what part of the world they come from, just to show we're nice guys. We should be doing what's best for Canada and Canadians, which sometimes means closing the door. Funny how many immigrants have said the exact same thing to me, once they got here. They feel they got conned. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 It's just as false a premise to presume that every immigrant brings a job with them. Maybe they only bring 1/2 a job with them, for a net loss. Maybe, but at least you're now not following the lump of labour fallacy. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 We should totally do that. Why not just import cheap labor for all jobs - think of the savings to Canadians. It's already been addressed - that's not possible. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted July 19, 2012 Report Posted July 19, 2012 A temporary worker brought in to do a low wage job such as fruit-picking (as in wyly's example) which pays them just enough to afford food and shelter and maybe to send a bit of money back home does not create enough extra demand for a whole additional job to be created. They create demand for housing, for food, for shelter, for services that generates economic activity. This is the whole point - it's not a zero sum game. Here's the other thing to take into account - the jobs that they do take generate economic activity, and great profits, for those who employ them in many cases. You can't find a programmer to work for $35K, or a cook to work at a fancy restaurant for minimum wage unless you hire an immigrant who does this work and generates profits with his/her labour. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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