Problems with MIgrant Temp Workers.....

[madmax]

The supreme court has smartly walked away from this tragedy.

Sinopec is to face charges....

However.....

Sinopec Shanghai, which brought the workers to Alberta, argued it has no official presence in Canada and therefore could not be charged.

Backgrounder...

Two temporary workers from China died in 2007 near Fort McMurray when a storage tank collapsed at Canadian Natural Resources Ltd.'s Horizon project.

The are temp workers but they were Tradesmen, Electrian and Welder IIRC.

They were making $600 per month working in Fort McMurray.

[Topaz]

Just $600 a month???? I thought they were to make the same as Canadians workers?

[Michael Hardner]

Why would they make the same as Canadian workers ?

Also - can we have a link please ?

[madmax]

Why would they make the same as Canadian workers ?

Also - can we have a link please ?

Opps.. THougth I had included the links....

Story above...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/07/12/edmonton-supreme-court-no-appeal-chinese-worker-deaths-case.html

Original Story From 2008..

Chinese workers ripped off, gov't admits

EDMONTON - Chinese workers who helped build a series of tanks in northern Alberta last year took home a small fraction of what their Canadian counterparts were paid.

By The Edmonton Journal June 18, 2008

EDMONTON - Chinese workers who helped build a series of tanks in northern Alberta last year took home a small fraction of what their Canadian counterparts were paid.

Some details of the wage discrepancy emerged only after the widows of two Chinese workers killed when a tank collapsed

On Saturday, Liu Ruijuan, the 26-year-old widow of welder Ge Genbao, said her husband told her he would make the equivalent of $600 Cdn a month. He should have been making $30 an hour, or at least $4,800 a month, plus overtime and benefits, according to the union's collective agreement.

Sun Shumei, widow of electrical engineer Liu Hongliang, said her husband made about $8,800 during the six months he worked here before he died. Her husband had 10 years of experience. A Canadian engineer in a similar field would make at minimum $23,000 for six months' salary.

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=e32a0e36-1bf6-4be0-a432-822901b860cf

Edited July 15, 2012 by madmax

[Canuckistani]

Why would they make the same as Canadian workers ?

Also - can we have a link please ?

I thought the whole reason for temp workers was that the company could not find Canadians to take those jobs at the prevailing wage. In fact I thought there was a law against paying temp workers less, and there's been an outcry because the govt is now allowing employers to pay temp workers 15% less. How this benefits Canadians as a whole is beyond me. Just lowers wages for Canadians.

[Michael Hardner]

I thought the whole reason for temp workers was that the company could not find Canadians to take those jobs at the prevailing wage. In fact I thought there was a law against paying temp workers less, and there's been an outcry because the govt is now allowing employers to pay temp workers 15% less. How this benefits Canadians as a whole is beyond me. Just lowers wages for Canadians.

The "prevailing wage" is the wage offered, though. They can offer lower pay, and fill the job elsewhere if it isn't filled by Canadians. That's what happened to me.

[Canuckistani]

The "prevailing wage" is the wage offered, though. They can offer lower pay, and fill the job elsewhere if it isn't filled by Canadians. That's what happened to me.

Don't know why you defend immigration so much then - this is exactly what I'm talking about. Does it really make sense to import people to lower the wages of Canadians? With unemployment where it is, does it make sense to bring in 250,000 temp workers on top of 250,000 immigrants?

Reminds me of Grapes of Wrath where the foreman explains they got no 25 cent a bushel peaches to pick, but they got all kinds of 20 cent peaches. And in the end, when they couldn't sell the peaches because people had no money, they burned them to keep the price high and prevent the starving workers from getting access to them.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Canuckistani

[Michael Hardner]

Don't know why you defend immigration so much then - this is exactly what I'm talking about. Does it really make sense to import people to lower the wages of Canadians? With unemployment where it is, does it make sense to bring in 250,000 temp workers on top of 250,000 immigrants?

Economically, it improves productivity so yes it makes sense. It makes us more competitive and increases hiring, and makes Canada attractive to invest.

What isn't being addressed though is the lack of high-end wages that are being created. It doesn't make economic sense to just pay somebody more to do wages that others can do for cheap, we need higher end jobs to be created.

Reminds me of Grapes of Wrath where the foreman explains they got no 25 cent a bushel peaches to pick, but they got all kinds of 20 cent peaches. And in the end, when they couldn't sell the peaches because people had no money, they burned them to keep the price high and prevent the starving workers from getting access to them.

They made money doing that, I guess. Today, they give away the surplus to food banks.

[Canuckistani]

Economically, it improves productivity so yes it makes sense. It makes us more competitive and increases hiring, and makes Canada attractive to invest.

What isn't being addressed though is the lack of high-end wages that are being created. It doesn't make economic sense to just pay somebody more to do wages that others can do for cheap, we need higher end jobs to be created.

By your first sentence we should bring in tons of people to work for 3rd world wages - we would be more competitive, have lower unemployment and make Canada more attractive to investment. Also make it a shitty country to live in.

A country will always have a range of jobs that need doing with a range of salaries. Countries like Germany and Sweden seem to do very well with a smaller spread.

[Michael Hardner]

By your first sentence we should bring in tons of people to work for 3rd world wages - we would be more competitive, have lower unemployment and make Canada more attractive to investment. Also make it a shitty country to live in.

You can't bring people to compete for every job out there.

We have a minimum wage, so 3rd world wages shouldn't be an issue.

A country will always have a range of jobs that need doing with a range of salaries. Countries like Germany and Sweden seem to do very well with a smaller spread.

We should look more closely at those examples.

[cybercoma]

You can't bring people to compete for every job out there.

We have a minimum wage, so 3rd world wages shouldn't be an issue.

We should look more closely at those examples.

The average minimum wage in Canada is about $20,000 per year (full time). This isn't developing world conditions, but it's certainly struggling. The average one bedroom apartment in Ontario is around $750 according to CMHC. At $9000, that's almost half a person's gross income. Add utilities and telecom and that's at least another $2400 per month. We haven't even touched food and transportation to and from work yet and at $20,000/year the person would pay some amount of income tax.

Whatever happened to the time when it was expected that a person could make an honest living working 40 hours per week and care for a family on that income? We're racing to the bottom here. It's not third-world conditions, but more and more people are going to be living in poverty.

[Canuckistani]

The average minimum wage in Canada is about $20,000 per year (full time). This isn't developing world conditions, but it's certainly struggling. The average one bedroom apartment in Ontario is around $750 according to CMHC. At $9000, that's almost half a person's gross income. Add utilities and telecom and that's at least another $2400 per month. We haven't even touched food and transportation to and from work yet and at $20,000/year the person would pay some amount of income tax.

Whatever happened to the time when it was expected that a person could make an honest living working 40 hours per week and care for a family on that income? We're racing to the bottom here. It's not third-world conditions, but more and more people are going to be living in poverty.

In BC our min wage was 16,600 for the longest time until a new premier, desperate to be liked raised it to 21k, working full time. In Vancouver rents are higher than you describe above. With continued downward pressure, and pressure not to raise that min wage because we want to remain competitive and boost productivity, how long before that income does start to lookt like the 3rd world? Especially once you take off all taxes (payroll, HST, etc) and other govt levies (MSP, etc)? I don't understand why Michael is so in favor of us moving in this direction.

[madmax]

In BC our min wage was 16,600 for the longest time until a new premier, desperate to be liked raised it to 21k, working full time. In Vancouver rents are higher than you describe above. With continued downward pressure, and pressure not to raise that min wage because we want to remain competitive and boost productivity, how long before that income does start to lookt like the 3rd world? Especially once you take off all taxes (payroll, HST, etc) and other govt levies (MSP, etc)? I don't understand why Michael is so in favor of us moving in this direction.

I believe the Conservative Plan is to bring in more migrant workers to create the Workers Paradise described... erm.. someones paradise..

Complainers can go live in their parents basements... and at these wages, they are going to have to.

[wyly]

minimum wage in alberta they should be making at least 1,500 a month based on a 5 day week, 8 hour day...it could be $600 per month may include deductions for room and board...when I worked in those regions away from home 8-12hr days were normal and wages were high otherwise no canadian would go there, for migrants it's different minimum wage is awesome compared to they can earn back home...

as long as they're paid minimum wage I don't think there's much that can be done, corporations don't have to pay what equivalent wages to what canadian welder gets paid, it works the same way for canadians, union shop rates vs non union shop rates...to a migrant worker living in those camps $600 per month may be much more than they would receive at home, even if they're in Canada working for a Chinese company they're essentially still in china...

[Canuckistani]

as long as they're paid minimum wage I don't think there's much that can be done, corporations don't have to pay what equivalent wages to what canadian welder gets paid, it works the same way for canadians, union shop rates vs non union shop rates...to a migrant worker living in those camps $600 per month may be much more than they would receive at home, even if they're in Canada working for a Chinese company they're essentially still in china...

What can be done is not let them in. Have the employer pay a wage that attracts Canadians to that job. Are we really going to employ the third world while Canadians don't have jobs?

[wyly]

What can be done is not let them in. Have the employer pay a wage that attracts Canadians to that job. Are we really going to employ the third world while Canadians don't have jobs?

that only works if there are enough canadians to fill the jobs...and then there are wages, if these corporations will only pay minimum wages for welders then no Canadian will take them and we can't legislate union rates as minimum wage...working for a union shop like the university wages would be $30-35 per hour, non-union shops in Calgary pay $13 and up...so those migrant workers aren't being treated any different than any other canadian, if they don't like the wages don't take the job...it may suck but I don't think there are any laws being broken...

[Guest Peeves]

The average minimum wage in Canada is about $20,000 per year (full time). This isn't developing world conditions, but it's certainly struggling. The average one bedroom apartment in Ontario is around $750 according to CMHC. At $9000, that's almost half a person's gross income. Add utilities and telecom and that's at least another $2400 per month. We haven't even touched food and transportation to and from work yet and at $20,000/year the person would pay some amount of income tax.

Whatever happened to the time when it was expected that a person could make an honest living working 40 hours per week and care for a family on that income? We're racing to the bottom here. It's not third-world conditions, but more and more people are going to be living in poverty.

There never was a time where a person could work 4o hours and care for a family beyond necessities.

Then we got color t.v. , cells, internet,Computers, Ipads, gas guzzler cars, t.v. dinners fast foods rather than cooking, bar b Q's, sat. t.v.Play Station games, another T.V. for the kids, Another for the Bed room. and so on and so on. Now get rid of all the perks and maybe you could live cheaply on a 40hour week.

Myself, I worked a 48 hour week and held a part time job with a wife and 2 kids and just got by when there was very few of the 'necessities' families WANT now.

Also. No child care or the other cotton wool niceties our governments have doled out and raised taxes to cover.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Peeves

[cybercoma]

There never was a time where a person could work 4o hours and care for a family beyond necessities.

There absolutely was not only a time when one could do that, but it was expected from industry that they would be able to do that.

In my opinion, the social safety net has turned people's focus away from industry where it belongs and turned it towards the government. People no longer stand up to industry for their fair share of the profits because they expect the government to look out for them.

Edited July 16, 2012 by cybercoma

[Canuckistani]

that only works if there are enough canadians to fill the jobs...and then there are wages, if these corporations will only pay minimum wages for welders then no Canadian will take them and we can't legislate union rates as minimum wage...working for a union shop like the university wages would be $30-35 per hour, non-union shops in Calgary pay $13 and up...so those migrant workers aren't being treated any different than any other canadian, if they don't like the wages don't take the job...it may suck but I don't think there are any laws being broken...

If we don't have enough welders, let's train more instead of importing them. If the corps only pay min wage, let them go without workers, not accede to their pushing wages down. In times of labor shortages, wages are supposed to go up, not down.

[wyly]

There never was a time where a person could work 4o hours and care for a family beyond necessities.

Then we got color t.v. , cells, internet,Computers, Ipads, gas guzzler cars, t.v. dinners fast foods rather than cooking, bar b Q's, sat. t.v.Play Station games, another T.V. for the kids, Another for the Bed room. and so on and so on. Now get rid of all the perks and maybe you could live cheaply on a 40hour week.

Myself, I worked a 48 hour week and held a part time job with a wife and 2 kids and just got by when there was very few of the 'necessities' families WANT now.

Also. No child care or the other cotton wool niceties our governments have doled out and raised taxes to cover.

even with zero "necessities" I'd like to see anyone support a family in a city like calgary on minimum wage...living in a tiny basement suite can use up 10K of a yearly 15K minimum wage, then there is transportation, food, clothing...

[Guest Peeves]

that only works if there are enough canadians to fill the jobs...and then there are wages, if these corporations will only pay minimum wages for welders then no Canadian will take them and we can't legislate union rates as minimum wage...working for a union shop like the university wages would be $30-35 per hour, non-union shops in Calgary pay $13 and up...so those migrant workers aren't being treated any different than any other canadian, if they don't like the wages don't take the job...it may suck but I don't think there are any laws being broken...

Correct. Most Canadians aren't union members. Also unions have padded their wage base with retirement plans at 55, drug, dental, insurance for travel, sick days accumulated and shorter work weeks, more O.T.

Now i don't begrudge a fair wage or some perks, but there is/was a price. Good for the unions that pushed, bad for the rest. If a private company has to make a profit, then their product price goes up accordingly.

Migrant workers find it's better to come here than to sit on their duffs and die.

Unless of course you're in the public sector then the skies the limit and we just increase tax...no profit need be made.

Additionaly, there ARE enough Canadians to fill the job market, it's just that many won't do that work.

[wyly]

If we don't have enough welders, let's train more instead of importing them.

train more? just like our MD shortage check the local technical schools and you'll find they're at maximum enrollment...

If the corps only pay min wage, let them go without workers, not accede to their pushing wages down. In times of labor shortages, wages are supposed to go up, not down.

what if they are offering jobs at competitive rates and still can't find sufficient welders?...I don't know the exact situation I'm just playing devils advocate here..

[Guest Peeves]

There absolutely was not only a time when one could do that, but it was expected from industry that they would be able to do that.

In my opinion, the social safety net has turned people's focus away from industry where it belongs and turned it towards the government. People no longer stand up to industry for their fair share of the profits because they expect the government to look out for them.

Nonsense. I was in a well paying industry. My 40 hours a week was only covering basic necessities, not all the crap and taxes added from the -60-70's on.

I had to work a second job all my working life to afford any other extras.

[Guest Peeves]

train more? just like our MD shortage check the local technical schools and you'll find they're at maximum enrollment...

what if they are offering jobs at competitive rates and still can't find sufficient welders?...I don't know the exact situation I'm just playing devils advocate here..

In ten years the mining workers will lose 40% of the workers through attrition.. There are jobs, but workers?

[wyly]

Additionaly, there ARE enough Canadians to fill the job market, it's just that many won't do that work.

can you blame them?...how many canadians will do the back breaking labour jobs or work in tough conditions for minimum wages when they can get minimum wage at 711 or at commissionaire job ...think about it, if you had a choice 711 or Tims vs working picking in an orchard for minimum wage which would you take? ...an adult with a family cannot survive on minimum wage, those jobs are for retirees, kids, new immigrants and migrants; those who don't really need a job, those looking for a little spending money or the very desperate...