Guest Peeves Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 It's sad and generally unnecessary when a worker is killed. I understand 5,000 Chinese mine workers die every year in coal mines. And the early Suez!! The majority of canal laborers were Egyptians forced to work in grueling conditions likened to building the Great Wall of China.[16] Of the 1.5 million Egyptians who worked on the canal, it is estimated 125,000 died from cholera. Imagine the workers deaths on the pyramids or the Great wall of China.. We live and die so much better today. Quote
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 In ten years the mining workers will lose 40% of the workers through attrition.. There are jobs, but workers? what's your point?..we can't force people into mines?...I don't know why there would be trouble replacing them, the mines I'm acquainted with in alberta and saskatchewan never had a problem finding workers, they pay well and there was always a long list of applicants...I could only see a shortage developing if there were better paying job prospects and if that's the case the mines will have to raise wages or bring in migrant workers... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 train more? just like our MD shortage check the local technical schools and you'll find they're at maximum enrollment... We've run out of space to build more tech schools, have we? Just can't be done? The MD shortage in the 1990's was caused by the govt purposely limiting med school spaces to reduce the number of doctors to reduce medicare costs. When this resulted in long waiting lists (duh) their response was first to import more doctors, many of whom couldn't practice because the medical associations wouldn't recognize their credentials. Does that make sense?what if they are offering jobs at competitive rates and still can't find sufficient welders?...I don't know the exact situation I'm just playing devils advocate here.. What's a competitive rate - if there's a shortage of welders, wages should go up, no? If wages go up it should draw people to those jobs, and draw people to be trained as welders. If govt doesn't train enough, why don't corps train their own? Better yet, why don't we do it like Germany, where corps, govt, and unions co-operate on training? Quote
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 It's sad and generally unnecessary when a worker is killed. I understand 5,000 Chinese mine workers die every year in coal mines. coal mines by their nature very unstable and the most dangerous mines...Potash mines in Sask are extremely safe and actually pleasant a miners paradise... Imagine the workers deaths on the pyramids or the Great wall of China..We live and die so much better today. contrary to popular belief the pyramids work crews were well taken care of, a professional paid work force with medical care...the great wall, was horrendous... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Guest Peeves Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 can you blame them?...how many canadians will do the back breaking labour jobs or work in tough conditions for minimum wages when they can get minimum wage at 711 or at commissionaire job ...think about it, if you had a choice 711 or Tims vs working picking in an orchard for minimum wage which would you take? ...an adult with a family cannot survive on minimum wage, those jobs are for retirees, kids, new immigrants and migrants; those who don't really need a job, those looking for a little spending money or the very desperate... Very true. a hundred or so years can make a difference alright. Workers at that time lined up for back breaking work and considered a full time job a god send. We are so much luckier now, and unions got us there. Now a worker resents (in many cases) that they have to do 8hrs/day. But, they go home to enjoy things that were never imagined 100 years ago. My first t.v. (there was only B&W, 4-5 stations), cost me about 10 weeks earnings. Quote
Canuckistani Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 an adult with a family cannot survive on minimum wage, those jobs are for... new immigrants Immigrants aren't adults with families? Quote
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) We've run out of space to build more tech schools, have we? Just can't be done? The MD shortage in the 1990's was caused by the govt purposely limiting med school spaces to reduce the number of doctors to reduce medicare costs. When this resulted in long waiting lists (duh) their response was first to import more doctors, many of whom couldn't practice because the medical associations wouldn't recognize their credentials. Does that make sense?schools cost money, money that requires raising of taxes, what happens to governments/political parties that suggest raising taxes? they don't get elected...foreign MDs don't get their credentials recognized because they aren't qualified...I've first hand insight into the accreditation process, surprisingly one of the largest group of foreign trained MDs rejected are Canadian graduates of foreign universities...all school MD programs are not equal... What's a competitive rate - if there's a shortage of welders, wages should go up, no? If wages go up it should draw people to those jobs, and draw people to be trained as welders. If govt doesn't train enough, why don't corps train their own? Better yet, why don't we do it like Germany, where corps, govt, and unions co-operate on training?supply and demand...I had a similar discussion on another thread, corporations bottom line is profit and they'll always take the least expensive option because they answer to a board of directors who answer to shareholders, shareholders from everywhere who don't give a crap about a living wage in alberta... Edited July 16, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 Immigrants aren't adults with families? often they are but most immigrants today are well educated and take higher paying jobs, the immigrants taking these jobs are often refugees and poorly educated hard luck cases who speak little english, they're desperate...mrs wyly has an office full of recent immigrants working for her all of whom make between 50-60K... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 schools cost money, money that requires raising of taxes, what happens to governments/political parties that suggest raising taxes? they don't get elected...foreign MDs don't get their credentials recognized because they aren't qualified...I've first hand insight into the accreditation process, surprisingly one of the largest group of foreign trained MDs rejected are Canadian graduates of foreign universities...all school MD programs are not equal... Why don't we just shut down all schools then and import all the skilled workers we need. Think of the money we'd save. Plus those immigrants aren't so uppity and will work for less. Again, what's the point of importing people because they are doctors and then not recognizing their credentials?supply and demand...I had a similar discussion on another thread, corporations bottom line is profit and they'll always take the least expensive option because they answer to a board of directors who answer to shareholders, shareholders from everywhere who don't give a crap about a living wage in alberta... Of course they will. But if labor is in short supply, demand should drive wages up, no? Quote
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Why don't we just shut down all schools then and import all the skilled workers we need. Think of the money we'd save. Plus those immigrants aren't so uppity and will work for less. sarcasm right?Again, what's the point of importing people because they are doctors and then not recognizing their credentials?well the government doesn't know who is a qualified MD and who is not that's what Canadian medical associations determine and they can't determine that accurately without the candidate in the country to be interviewed, tested, and observed in clinical situations...I know a number of these foreign "MDs" have been found to be no better than 1st,2nd or 3rd year canadian Med students...do you want a med student equivalent operating on you or diagnosing your potential cancer or heart condition? Of course they will. But if labor is in short supply, demand should drive wages up, no?yes it should and it does, Canadians working in the patch get paid very well... but at the same time if a company can't find any canadian applicants can we stop them from looking elsewhere?...if our technical schools produce 200 welders a year but the demand calls for 400 per year what right do we have to prevent companies from recruiting elsewhere?.. if there are unemployed welders in Ontario who don't want to move to northern alberta why shouldn't a chinese welder who is willing to not do so?again I'm not taking sides here I'm just trying to see both sides of the issue.. Edited July 16, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Canuckistani Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 sarcasm right? More reductio ad absurdum, but it follows from your argument. Can we afford not to train the people we need?well the government doesn't know who is a qualified MD and who is not that's what Canadian medical associations determine and they can't determine that accurately without the candidate in the country to be interviewed, tested, and observed in clinical situations...I know a number of these foreign "MDs" have been found to be no better than 1st,2nd or 3rd year canadian Med students...do you want a med student equivalent operating on you or diagnosing your potential cancer or heart condition? Why doesn't the govt know? How about finding out before letting somebody in the country?yes it should and it does, Canadians working in the patch get paid very well... but at the same time if a company can't find any canadian applicants can we stop them from looking elsewhere?...if our technical schools produce 200 welders a year but the demand calls for 400 per year what right do we have to prevent companies from recruiting elsewhere?.. if there are unemployed welders in Ontario who don't want to move to northern alberta why shouldn't a chinese welder who is willing to not do so?again I'm not taking sides here I'm just trying to see both sides of the issue.. Because we don't have our door open to the whole world - the unemployed welders in Ontario will go to Alberta if the wages are high enough. Quote
madmax Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) More reductio ad absurdum, but it follows from your argument. Can we afford not to train the people we need? Why doesn't the govt know? How about finding out before letting somebody in the country? Because we don't have our door open to the whole world - the unemployed welders in Ontario will go to Alberta if the wages are high enough. And they do and they are.... Along with NFLD, NS, NB... infact they are in Sask and Manitoba working as well and have been throughout the last decade. Some people will make any excuse for Cheap Foreign Labour to work on Canadian Soil for foreign companies. And those who make out like bandits are the Companies and the temp agencies and there frontmen. http://tfwassociation.com/membership-service-details http://americanadian.ca/contact-us Regardless we are all aware of the hundreds upon hundreds of Asian Migrant workers who go missing in Alberta, lost before they are even out of the Calgary Airport. Edited July 16, 2012 by madmax Quote
bleeding heart Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 And they do and they are.... Along with NFLD, NS, NB... infact they are in Sask and Manitoba working as well and have been throughout the last decade. Asolutely. I live in NB, and skilled, semi-skilled, and unskilled labourers flocking to the West for work as is normal as breathing here. Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
cybercoma Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 Nonsense. I was in a well paying industry. My 40 hours a week was only covering basic necessities, not all the crap and taxes added from the -60-70's on. I had to work a second job all my working life to afford any other extras. Which is BS. You shouldn't have had to go get a second job. A person ought to be able to make an honest living working a single FT job. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 can you blame them?...how many canadians will do the back breaking labour jobs or work in tough conditions for minimum wages when they can get minimum wage at 711 or at commissionaire job ...think about it, if you had a choice 711 or Tims vs working picking in an orchard for minimum wage which would you take? ...an adult with a family cannot survive on minimum wage, those jobs are for retirees, kids, new immigrants and migrants; those who don't really need a job, those looking for a little spending money or the very desperate... Consider the physical toll. I'm sure there are some people that can work 40+ hours per week doing manual labour and be good to go in their off time. However, I doubt most people would have enough energy to go out and work another job on top of that or even put in the time hunting for another job or upgrading skills. Granted it's not impossible. But there's no reason someone that puts in at least 40 hours per week of tough physical labour shouldn't be able to live comfortably on that. A comfortable living for a fulltime job should be our baseline. That's what we ought to expect from industry everywhere. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 Which is BS. You shouldn't have had to go get a second job. A person ought to be able to make an honest living working a single FT job. Why? Says who? You? This is a joke, right? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Why doesn't the govt know? How about finding out before letting somebody in the country? I think I covered that, how would some bureaucrat in immigration know if a foreign MD is qualified or not, what's that bureaucrats qualification for determining MD credentials? it's a long precise process and it has to be done in person by qualified MDs in Canada...it's difficult enough to do here as it requires already overworked MDs to run the accreditation process, sending those MDs overseas to do it is impossible... Because we don't have our door open to the whole world - the unemployed welders in Ontario will go to Alberta if the wages are high enough.the wages are high enough yet they don't come so we have to assume they don't want to or there aren't any available...I have a cousin in Calgary who with his wife prefers to work two jobs each in calgary rather than one high paying job up in the patch, his technical training in heavy-duty mechanic/welder would bring him an easy 60K(much more if worked on his own)...working in isolated communities is not everyone's dream job regardless of the money, I used to do it 30 years ago but there is no way in hell you'd get me back there... Edited July 16, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 Consider the physical toll. I'm sure there are some people that can work 40+ hours per week doing manual labour and be good to go in their off time. However, I doubt most people would have enough energy to go out and work another job on top of that or even put in the time hunting for another job or upgrading skills. Granted it's not impossible. But there's no reason someone that puts in at least 40 hours per week of tough physical labour shouldn't be able to live comfortably on that. A comfortable living for a fulltime job should be our baseline. That's what we ought to expect from industry everywhere. a "living wage" is the term you're looking for...I agree but how do we find a baseline for that? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
cybercoma Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 You can't enforce a living wage, imo. It wouldn't help if the government said people must make at least $X per year and it must increase Y% each year for inflation. It just doesn't work. I'm not sure what the answer is but at the very least industries need to be held accountable by the populace for our economic conditions as well, rather than solely relying on the government. I also think we need to stop allowing companies to expert labour to the cheapest regions in the world free of charge. There should be no free trade with countries that allow their workers to make pennies a day. Our labour force cannot and should be expected to compete with that. If you want to export labour to countries where wages are impossible for Canadian industry to match, you need to be paying the price when it comes to import costs and duties. I really have no idea how to "fix" the problem. Quote
wyly Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) You can't enforce a living wage, imo. It wouldn't help if the government said people must make at least $X per year and it must increase Y% each year for inflation. It just doesn't work. I'm not sure what the answer is but at the very least industries need to be held accountable by the populace for our economic conditions as well, rather than solely relying on the government. I also think we need to stop allowing companies to expert labour to the cheapest regions in the world free of charge. There should be no free trade with countries that allow their workers to make pennies a day. Our labour force cannot and should be expected to compete with that. If you want to export labour to countries where wages are impossible for Canadian industry to match, you need to be paying the price when it comes to import costs and duties. I really have no idea how to "fix" the problem. the government would need to cover shortages to make ends meet for the lowest paid, rent subsidies would be a huge help for those on minimum wage as would assisting with daycare expenses... Edited July 16, 2012 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
cybercoma Posted July 16, 2012 Report Posted July 16, 2012 the government would need to cover shortages to make ends meet for the lowest paid, rent subsidies would be a huge help for those on minimum wage as would assisting with daycare expenses... Rent subsidies don't work. They create shortages and/or drive up rent prices. Quote
Bonam Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Consider the physical toll. I'm sure there are some people that can work 40+ hours per week doing manual labour and be good to go in their off time. However, I doubt most people would have enough energy to go out and work another job on top of that or even put in the time hunting for another job or upgrading skills. Granted it's not impossible. But there's no reason someone that puts in at least 40 hours per week of tough physical labour shouldn't be able to live comfortably on that. A comfortable living for a fulltime job should be our baseline. That's what we ought to expect from industry everywhere. I think you are thinking about this from entirely the wrong direction. Sure, a comfortable living for a full time job is a nice ideal (even disregarding the complete ambiguity and subjectivity of the concept of a "comfortable living"). But it's not ideals that drive wages, nor should they. It's economics. Wages for commodity labor are subject to supply and demand. The more laborers competing for jobs, the lower the wage. Why should a company hire someone to do a job for $20/hour if someone else is willing to do the same job for $15/hour? Assuming equal skill levels at the job at hand, why is that second person any less deserving of a job? And why should the company offer more money than that 2nd guy is willing to work for? This is where the issue of immigrant workers comes in. The more workers we have, the more people compete for the same jobs. It's simple mathematics. Controlling immigration rates is in fact one area that the government should indeed have control and jurisdiction over, and it should set these rates to most benefit existing residents of the jurisdiction in question. That means more immigrants in times of economic growth when employers literally can't find enough workers, and less or even no immigrants at all in times when unemployment is high. All that aside, I do agree with your statement that people should not be relying on the government to provide them with their material needs/wants. One's primary means of survival and accumulation of wealth should be the productive outcome of one's own work. Edited July 17, 2012 by Bonam Quote
wyly Posted July 17, 2012 Report Posted July 17, 2012 Rent subsidies don't work. They create shortages and/or drive up rent prices. well that's rather counter intuitive...rising rental prices encourages development of more rental properties as do more potential renters...there is plenty of subsidized rent now and it hasn't created a shortage, nor higher rates...rental rates are connected to supply, demand, location not subsidies, I personally know of landlords who rent to subsidized tenants and are no higher than the competition... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 The average minimum wage in Canada is about $20,000 per year (full time). This isn't developing world conditions, but it's certainly struggling. You're responding to a response. I didn't start out with the point that minimum wages are what we should be striving for across the board, but I responded to a comment about 3rd world wages. Whatever happened to the time when it was expected that a person could make an honest living working 40 hours per week and care for a family on that income? We're racing to the bottom here. It's not third-world conditions, but more and more people are going to be living in poverty. It's not as bad as that, depending on how you define poverty. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted July 18, 2012 Report Posted July 18, 2012 The more workers we have, the more people compete for the same jobs. It's simple mathematics. And yet, this is wrong. As simple as it sounds, it's wrong and it is known as "the lump of labour fallacy". Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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