Canada Does It Again

[bush_cheney2004]

....Now those that shared the same similar requirements as us where the Royal Navy and Italians (to replace their Sea Kings), hence the development of the EH-101 as a direct Sea King replacement, and in turn, our initial selection of the EH-101 decades ago………..The rest as they say is history.

Sounds like they/you had those damn Sea Kings so long, nothing else is ever gonna measure up (pun intended). One airframe can only do so much. We were remanufacturing SH-2D's Sea Sprites as SH-2F when I was in the fleet 30 years ago, and now long gone for Sea Hawks.

[cybercoma]

Great. Another thread that would make for good policy discussion is going to turn into a YouTube fest of "jingoporn".

[DogOnPorch]

Great. Another thread that would make for good policy discussion is going to turn into a YouTube fest of "jingoporn".

Policy, eh? I think that's the joke.

[bush_cheney2004]

Great. Another thread that would make for good policy discussion is going to turn into a YouTube fest of "jingoporn".

If "jingoporn" is unacceptable, how about this...meets CanCon rules too!

[DogOnPorch]

I think cyber forgets we had this thread in the past...didn't help with Canadian helicopter selection then, either!

Piasecki H-21 Shawnee...one of the first combat helicopters. Perhaps the first to mount a gun.

[Wilber]

We had this to play with. Wonder if it is still there.

HUP-3

Edited July 11, 2012 by Wilber

[DogOnPorch]

We had this to play with. Wonder if it is still there.

HUP-3

Ah yes, the Army Mule. Great in its day.

[Guest Derek L]

Sounds like they/you had those damn Sea Kings so long, nothing else is ever gonna measure up (pun intended). One airframe can only do so much. We were remanufacturing SH-2D's Sea Sprites as SH-2F when I was in the fleet 30 years ago, and now long gone for Sea Hawks.

Indeed………When my father left the RCN in the early 60s, the Sea Kings were coming into the fleet, I joined in ‘81 when they already were in need of replacement, left in late ’94 after the EH-101 was cancelled and all other earlier proposals (“green” EH-101’s with Sea King sensor suite) rejected by the Government and my oldest is off to RMC this fall……..Potentially, after her four years of undergrad schooling, then another ~year of flight school, she could be posted to a maritime squadron still flying Sea Kings that entered service when I was born……….

It’s almost laughable, that our Halifax frigates, designed around the EH-101, will be entering the downward span of their lives once the Cyclones enter service…………To say nothing of the fact that we, the sole Cyclone operator, will be operating a bastard fleet of aircraft until their retirement, all the while being the sole investor in any Cyclone upgrades over that timeframe…………A mistake we repeated with the Aurora’s (also in need of replacement) and depending on the next election, could very well make again with the Hornet replacement.

[bush_cheney2004]

We had this to play with. Wonder if it is still there.

HUP-3

Holy crap....overhead drive shaft? Must take vibration to a whole new level.

[bush_cheney2004]

....It’s almost laughable, that our Halifax frigates, designed around the EH-101, will be entering the downward span of their lives once the Cyclones enter service……

Frigates are only temporary....Sea Kings are immortal!

[bush_cheney2004]

Krikey....these S-92's cost more than F-35"s !!

..and no stealth!

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/305560-canada-cormorant-cyclone-thread-7.html

Edited July 11, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

Krikey....these S-92's cost more than F-35"s !!

..and no stealth!

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/305560-canada-cormorant-cyclone-thread-7.html

Close:

~5.7 billion / 28 = ~205 million per airframe plus contractor support

~14.7 billion / 65 = ~ 226 million per airframe plus contractor support

Of course the numbers associated with through life costing aren’t available for the Cyclone, nor the necessary upgrades to the Frigates (Budgeted under FELEX) or the costing of designing the replacement vessels incorporating helicopters, or costing from operating them that’s born from the RCN budget………..They aren’t cheap……..Just wait until we replace the Auroras……..

Edited July 11, 2012 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

What we’ll likely replace the Auroras with:

Boeing P-8

The per plane cost will likely be double what we’ll end up paying for the F-35 & Cyclone.

[bush_cheney2004]

Close:

~5.7 billion / 28 = ~205 million per airframe plus contractor support

~14.7 billion / 65 = ~ 226 million per airframe plus contractor support

Amazing...thanks for checking my math. Those must be some bitchin' helos...no wonder the proposed F-35 procurement is needed as a distraction from this ongoing fiasco.

[Guest Derek L]

Amazing...thanks for checking my math. Those must be some bitchin' helos...no wonder the proposed F-35 procurement is needed as a distraction from this ongoing fiasco.

Not so much the helicopters themselves, but what’s inside them.

[Guest Derek L]

And news from the other Canadian helicopter procurement………….

The new Boeing [NYSE: BA] CH-147F Medium-to-Heavy-Lift Helicopter for Canada is progressing ahead of schedule after making its first flight on June 24.

"Boeing and the Canadian Department of National Defence are focused on delivering the next generation of advanced vertical-lift aircraft to meet the needs of the Canadian military today and well into the future," said Leanne Caret, Boeing Vertical Lift vice president and H-47 Programs manager.

The inaugural flight lasted more than 80 minutes and confirmed the initial airworthiness of the aircraft, including its new electrical system and advanced Common Avionics Architecture System cockpit, which reduces pilot workload. After the Chinook's third flight on June 25, Boeing also completed the Limited Acceptance Test Procedure to validate aircraft performance and systems. The aircraft will continue to progress through ground and flight test activities in the coming months and soon will be joined by the second CH-147F, which is scheduled to roll off the production line later this month.

The Canadian H-47 Chinook, designated CH-147F by the Canadian Forces, provides advanced features that include a newly designed, modernized airframe with a long-range fuel system, upgraded electrical system, and enhanced fully integrated Common Avionics Architecture System cockpit and Digital Automatic Flight Control System. The aircraft also has improved survivability features, including a Directional Infrared Countermeasures system, internal ballistic protection, and crashworthy, armored pilot and co-pilot seats.

The Canadian government awarded Boeing a contract for 15 Medium-to-Heavy-Lift Helicopters and in-service support in June 2009. Aircraft deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2013.

Funny that the Chinooks (And the C-17s, C-130Js and Leopard II tanks), ordered under the CPC, who sole sourced said contract(s) and purchased all the expensive “add-ons” wanted by the RCAF, are ahead of schedule, well the Cyclones ordered under the Liberals……………..As I said, such is life.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Funny that the Chinooks (And the C-17s, C-130Js and Leopard II tanks), ordered under the CPC, who sole sourced said contract(s) and purchased all the expensive “add-ons” wanted by the RCAF, are ahead of schedule, well the Cyclones ordered under the Liberals……………..As I said, such is life.

Yea, funny how that works. IIRC, the Cons also ordered the EH-101 Cormorants right from the dealer lot until Chretien canceled them and paid $500 million in penalties, cementing Canada's place in the rotary wing procurement Hall of Fame.

[DogOnPorch]

Meanwhile, our military's trucks are pretty much ready for the 'push-pull-or-drag' sale. I watched some of those things try to climb the OK Connector once 10+ years back (already). Could have walked faster...

[Guest Derek L]

Yea, funny how that works. IIRC, the Cons also ordered the EH-101 Cormorants right from the dealer lot until Chretien canceled them and paid $500 million in penalties, cementing Canada's place in the rotary wing procurement Hall of Fame.

This is true, but the Progressive Conservatives, also retired our previous Chinooks, later to be "replaced" by the Griffon (Upgraded civilian Huey) produced by Bell Textron in Quebec………..And to speak to Dog’s point, also bought us the Light Support Vehicle, an underpowered Italian beauty made by Western Star (in a PC riding) in BC………I suppose the HMMWV wasn’t made in a friendly riding………….All in all, both parties were bad, going back to Louis St Laurent and ending with Paul Martin and continued with Harper

Edited July 13, 2012 by Derek L

[bush_cheney2004]

.....All in all, both parties were bad, going back to Louis St Laurent and ending with Paul Martin and continued with Harper

So these kind of procurements ultimately get mired in the politics of Big Labour, with wrangling and delays just part of the dance to favor a domestic piece of the action. But some things do not lend themselves to the long dance, as was the case with CC-177's or CH-147's needed more quickly.

Ironically, American contractors actually reap the benefit of upgrades and service life extensions while Canada dithers (e.g. CC-188 and Torpedo MK-48 kits).

By all accounts, the EH-101 is a capable platform, and in retrospect, an opportunity lost for Canada.

Edited October 22, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

So these kind of procurements ultimately get mired in the politics of Big Labour, with wrangling and delays just part of the dance to favor a domestic piece of the action. But some things do not lend themselves to the long dance, as was the case with CC-177's or CH-147's needed more quickly.

Ironically, American contractors actually reap the benefit of upgrades and service life extensions while Canada dithers (e.g. CC-188 and Torpedo MK 48 kits).

By all accounts, the EH-101 is a capable platform, and in retrospect, an opportunity lost for Canada.

It was a case of partisan politics at it’s finest………And was latter an embarrassment to then PM Chrétien when we replaced our Labradors (Sea Knights), with none other then the (Commercial model) of the EH-101 (Our Cormorant today)………..Prior to the selection of the Cyclone, everyone within the know new that despite the EH-101 being the most suited helicopter, that it wouldn’t be selected as a pure political face saving manoeuvre…..I remember at the time mind you, thinking they’d work out a deal for the NH-90 and was very surprised with the selection of the Cyclone……….

Unfortunately, if an NDP/LPC Government were to win the next election, thus due to the expended political capital, cancel our involvement in the F-35 program, I’m certain we’ll have this same conversation again

[DogOnPorch]

Hey...a REAL sub.

Now if we can just get to the subs at sea bit, ourselves...lol. We could party like it's 1959.

[bush_cheney2004]

[DogOnPorch]

Ah, Hudson...I know him...lol.

I wonder how long a Victoria class would last....

[bush_cheney2004]

....I wonder how long a Victoria class would last....

As long as Canada wants/needs them to last, 'cause you ain't getting any new ones for sure except maybe in the Edmonton Mall.