Liberal leadership

cybercoma · July 23, 2012

We really need to stop thinking of our party as a left-wing party. The Liberals need to go to the centre to win.

There is no political centre. The centre is a black hole. All the parties are trying to occupy it.

Newfoundlander · July 23, 2012

Yah at no time have the Liberals had tax increases in their platform. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news they wanted to freeze the tax rates where they were at before another yearly cut happened.

Wrong. They wanted to increase the corporate tax rates to what they were before January 1, 2011. They had said in 2010 they would freeze the tax at its current rate.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Newfoundlander

bleeding heart · July 23, 2012

There is no political centre. The centre is a black hole. All the parties are trying to occupy it.

Yes, I've tried to make this point before.

Even if we leave the parties aside, the self-described "centrists" tend to incline towards an astonishing lack of self-awareness.

That is, they are, in every case, just as "right" or "left" as most everybody else. (So far as the terms are useful, I mean.)

They just like to pretend to a sober "middle ground," under the self-aggrandizing pretext that they're above ideology (which they aren't) above political biases (which they aren't)...hell, above politics itself.

Or, if "centrism" is nothing more than the idea of not being overly doctrinaire, of holding opinions that are "right" on some subjects, and "left" on others...then virtually every leftie and rightie I know is also a "centrist."

Without naming names, I've debated "centrists" here on MLW who defend everything up to and including state terrorism...so long as it's Canada or an ally involved.

And what I mean is, even when they get to the point where they grudgingly admit that it's state terrorism...they still defend and support it.

If that's a "middle ground" or "centrism," then we don't need it...such views are extremism, fuelled by nationalistic indoctrination.

Edited July 23, 2012 by bleeding heart

July 23, 2012

We all know who wins in the federal election, and it has very little to do with political ideology, message or platform of a given party. It's the charisma and personality of the party leader that counts. Good looking, charismatic, well spoken. That attracts the voters every time.

So, Liberal leadership? The best thing they can do is get someone who knows how to build up that cult of personality. Politics is acting.

Newfoundlander · July 23, 2012

We all know who wins in the federal election, and it has very little to do with political ideology, message or platform of a given party. It's the charisma and personality of the party leader that counts. Good looking, charismatic, well spoken. That attracts the voters every time.

So, Liberal leadership? The best thing they can do is get someone who knows how to build up that cult of personality. Politics is acting.

Yes beauty and charisma is what got Harper to the PMO!

August1991 · July 23, 2012

We really need to stop thinking of our party as a left-wing party. The Liberals need to go to the centre to win.

Go for it! Harper will love you!

[Federal Liberal Strategist Thinking]Sadly, there is no centre anymore. There is only a median voter, and the federal Liberals don't know how to win the median voter's vote. What to do?[/Federal Liberal Strategist Stops Thinking]

NOT!

----

NewTeddy, federal politics are not ideological, they're regional. The federal Liberals have lost their "regional base", largely to the NDP.

No one in Alberta will vote federal Liberal, and very few in Quebec. Increasingly, few in Ontario or even Toronto, the Maritimes, will vote Liberal in a federal election.

As I say, the federal Liberals are no longer the regional bridge across Canada.

======

Here are the two key questions in Canadian federal politics, and on Stephen Harper's mind:

1. Will Justin Trudeau, the federalist, join the NDP?

2. Will Thomas Mulcair accept him?

(Hint: Trudeau père was once NPD/CCF. His Mom's a flake. Guess what will happen.)

---

And lastly, for Quebec politics, what of Denis Coderre? I reckon that he will run for mayor. Mulcair and Harper certainly don't want him.

Sorry guys, the federal Liberal Party not only smells funny, it's dead.

Edited July 23, 2012 by August1991

WWWTT · July 23, 2012

The federal Liberals have lost their "regional base", largely to the NDP.

Not true.

Ontario in 1993 was fort Cretien/liberal!

NDP do have a growing strength in Ontario,but the seat count currently has been lost to the conservatives.

Actually there are urban centres to and maybe some other regions where you could be right.

But a big chunk of their support was always based in the right,and that went to you know who.

WWWTT

WWWTT · July 23, 2012

Was just watching McGuinty talking about some conference coming up soon about gun violence or something along those lines.

He started his speech in French.This may sound nothing out of the ordinary,but I do not believe I have seen him do this often,if ever?

The first thought that came into my mind is that he could be starting to practice his French language abilities in public to prepare himself for something bigger he may have in mind.

And that would be making a run for the federal liberal leadership!

Many here may dismiss this.And this is a hard one because of how his current minority government position can play into all of this.

But I strongly believe that he believes he can be maybe the strongest of three possible candidates.

Any thoughts out there?

WWWTT

August1991 · July 23, 2012

Was just watching McGuinty talking about some conference coming up soon about gun violence or something along those lines.
He started his speech in French.This may sound nothing out of the ordinary,but I do not believe I have seen him do this often,if ever?

The first thought that came into my mind is that he could be starting to practice his French language abilities in public to prepare himself for something bigger he may have in mind.

And that would be making a run for the federal liberal leadership!

Clueless.

No provincial PM has ever become a federal PM - least of all an Ontario PM. (Unlike the US, where only southern governors become President.)

IMV, unlike Clinton, Bush Jnr, Reagan, and even Romney - Rae is unelectable (federally) because he was once Ontario PM.

-----

For political junkies, here's a thought: US voters choose State governors for president, Canadian voters prefer someone outside provincial politics for federal leader.

Why?

Edited July 23, 2012 by August1991

WWWTT · July 23, 2012

No provincial PM has ever become a federal PM - least of all an Ontario PM. (Unlike the US, where only southern governors become President.)

HAAAA!That's freekin funny!

It will be a long long long long time(more than likely never)before the liberals are in any position to put together any form of Canadian government!

The liberals are looking at a long road ahead in rebuilding.The best case scenario would be to prevent or slow down the bleeding support to the conservatives and NDP.I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this possibility.

Its not like as if the liberals have a wealth of options to choose from.

What they need right now is "steady Eddy" with their hands on the wheel.

Just an idea I'm tossing around anyways,as far as I'm concerned this party is in the gutter begging for lose change.

WWWTT

Newfoundlander · July 23, 2012

HAAAA!That's freekin funny!

It will be a long long long long time(more than likely never)before the liberals are in any position to put together any form of Canadian government!

The liberals are looking at a long road ahead in rebuilding.The best case scenario would be to prevent or slow down the bleeding support to the conservatives and NDP.I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this possibility.

Its not like as if the liberals have a wealth of options to choose from.

What they need right now is "steady Eddy" with their hands on the wheel.

Just an idea I'm tossing around anyways,as far as I'm concerned this party is in the gutter begging for lose change.

WWWTT

Their support for the last year has been higher then what the NDPs has historically been and look what happened to the NDP in about 2 weeks in April 2011.

WWWTT · July 23, 2012

Their support for the last year has been higher then what the NDPs has historically been and look what happened to the NDP in about 2 weeks in April 2011.

I am not debating if the liberals can change poll numbers.

I am suggesting if Dalton McGuinty is hinting that he may make a run for the fed. lib. leadership.

True I do not believe that they will be in any position to forming government in the next decade at best.But I do believe that an experienced provincial leader from one of their previous hot bed support regions would be a logical decision.

WWWTT

bush_cheney2004 · July 23, 2012

...No provincial PM has ever become a federal PM - least of all an Ontario PM. (Unlike the US, where only southern governors become President.)

Ummmmm...no...guess again:


Thomas Jefferson, Governor of Virginia, 1779-81
James Monroe, Governor of Virginia, 1799-1802
Andrew Jackson, Governor of the Florida Territory, 1821
Martin Van Buren, Governor of New York, 1829
William Henry Harrison, Territorial Governor of Indiana, 1801-13
John Tyler, Governor of Virginia, 1825-26
James Knox Polk, Governor of Tennessee, 1839-41
Andrew Johnson, Governor of Tennessee, 1853-57, Military Governor of Tennessee, 1862-65
Rutherford Birchard Hayes, Governor of Ohio, 1868-72, Governor of Ohio, 1876-77
Grover Cleveland, Governor of New York, 1883-85
William McKinley, Governor of Ohio, 1892-96
Theodore Roosevelt, Governor of New York, 1898-1900
William Howard Taft, Governor of the Philippines, 1901-04
Woodrow Wilson, Governor of New Jersey, 1911-13
Calvin Coolidge, Governor of Massachusetts, 1919-20
Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Governor of New York, 1929-33
James Earl Carter, Jr., Governor of Georgia, 1971-75
Ronald Wilson Reagan, Governor of California, 1967-75
William Jefferson Clinton, Governor of Arkansas, 1978-80, 1982-92
George Walker Bush, Governor of Texas, 1995-2000

Newfoundlander · July 23, 2012

I am not debating if the liberals can change poll numbers.

I am suggesting if Dalton McGuinty is hinting that he may make a run for the fed. lib. leadership.

True I do not believe that they will be in any position to forming government in the next decade at best.But I do believe that an experienced provincial leader from one of their previous hot bed support regions would be a logical decision.

WWWTT

Say what you like about his governing abilities, McGuinty can win elections.

WWWTT · July 23, 2012

Say what you like about his governing abilities, McGuinty can win elections.

OK....so you agree with me,right?

WWWTT

Newfoundlander · July 24, 2012

OK....so you agree with me,right?

WWWTT

Agree with what exactly?

WWWTT · July 24, 2012

Agree with what exactly?

About the possibility that Dalton may throw his hat into the leadership bid for the federal liberal party.

WWWTT

August1991 · July 24, 2012

Ummmmm...no...guess again:

Uh, Jimmy Carter was a southern governor. And so was Clinton, and Bush Jnr - if you consider Texas a southern state.

B_C, you have provided an impressive list of governors (many from the South) who became federal US presidents. (In Canada, I don't think that there were any provincial politicians who became federal PMs. Maybe John Thompson.)

Robert Stanfield, Bracken, George Drew all lost. Heck, even Claude Wagner couldn't win. In the federal Liberal Party, they don't even try. In the 1968 or 1984 leadership races, how many provincial politicians were there? Any?

----

Canada and US banks are different. So are our federal politics.

Edited July 24, 2012 by August1991

Newfoundlander · July 24, 2012

About the possibility that Dalton may throw his hat into the leadership bid for the federal liberal party.

WWWTT

I don't know, I don't think it's that likely. Who knows Liberals like him.

WWWTT · July 24, 2012

I don't know, I don't think it's that likely. Who knows Liberals like him.

Yes I am only going on a hunch.

Political timing might be too strong against him from making the jump.

In another year or so there could be another Ontario election.

There will be a bi election in Kitchener/Waterloo to replace Elizabeth Whitmer soon and that can have some influence on his decision.

WWWTT

Wild Bill · July 24, 2012

Yes I am only going on a hunch.

Political timing might be too strong against him from making the jump.

In another year or so there could be another Ontario election.

There will be a bi election in Kitchener/Waterloo to replace Elizabeth Whitmer soon and that can have some influence on his decision.

WWWTT

I think folks should give your idea a better hearing, WWWTT! Juat because we've never seen a provincial premier make a successful jump to rule in Ottawa doesn't mean that it is impossible. For everything something must be first!

Dalton somehow has managed to be successful at holding on here in Ontario. Perhaps that's more because of the failings of his opponents than his own strengths but so what? The Liberals have no one else with as good a track record!

Besides, if the Liberals are being realistic they know that there's no point in expected a winner to come out of the wilderness and save them. Someone like McGuinty might be able to at least stop the bleeding and perhaps even recover some lost ground. Considering the present position of the federal Liberal Party, McGuinty could be a huge plus!

If he could stop the slide and maybe recover some ground the Liberals would have bought themselves some breathing time. They could then start a search for someone to take them back to power.

The question is, would McGuinty be willing to serve in such a role? What's in it for him?

TheNewTeddy · July 24, 2012

If McGunity becomes federal leader I'll cut up my membership into small pieces and eat them on youtube - or perhaps just mail them back to the party with a letter for them to eff off and that I don't want to be associated with that arse.

However, if Charest runs, I'll volunteer for him full time.

WWWTT · July 24, 2012

The question is, would McGuinty be willing to serve in such a role? What's in it for him?

Ya these are hard questions for me to get my head around!

But on the other hand I think that McGuinty's shelf life as premier of Ontario has expired(or soon will be) and Ontario voters will be looking for fresh blood soon.

I would imagine that McGuinty will be stepping down in the near future and a loss in Kitch./Wat. may very well the nudge that could send him packing?

WWWTT

WWWTT · July 24, 2012

However, if Charest runs, I'll volunteer for him full time.

Wow I never even thought of him making the Bob Rae like jump back into the federal arena!

He did have success with the tories in the later part of the 90's to.

But if he leaves Quebec provincial politics where will the Quebec provincial liberals be?How will his departure affect Quebec?

Perhaps I am not fluent enough in Quebec politics to extrapolate any involved ideas about this scenario?

I will give Charest this,he does seem to be popular,and perhaps after seeing Jack Layton's success he may have regretted leaving the tories.

WWWTT

Newfoundlander · July 24, 2012

If McGunity becomes federal leader I'll cut up my membership into small pieces and eat them on youtube - or perhaps just mail them back to the party with a letter for them to eff off and that I don't want to be associated with that arse.

However, if Charest runs, I'll volunteer for him full time.

A serious question. Do you think you could support a party in government?