Elliott Lake Fiasco

[GostHacked]

That is total BS. What do you thing rescuers do? That is what they get paid for? Look at 9/11 ,look when a mine collapes.

All those brave men and women who stormed the WTC to put out fires perished in the collapse of the buildings. But, who knew that both buildings would collapse taking out many of the first responders. Then there was the situation with the air quality where many more now are dying because of pulverized concrete, steel, asbestos and all the other materials that make up two 100 storey buildings.

Look all over the place and the heroics that take place SAVING PEOPLE LIVES.

And in many cases, they save a life, sacrificing their own.

What they have done is a national shame. Heads must roll, starting with the minister in charge, Madeleine Meilleur and then dalton. Meiller was to busy with st bastice day to get invovled, she and staff should have been there on day 1 or 2, not heading up there now. Harper offered the military help, dalton said everything is under control. So everyone that keeps voting lib and the dippers that had a chance to get rid of these fools, thank you very much.

The blame will go to the mall owners and the builders. As it should. But with those allegations if true, I would hope Dalton gets the boot and charged for negligence.

[Boges]

We'd also have a firestorm if the search and rescue teams went in and got trapped/killed because the building was not properly assessed. I understand the urge/need to get in there, I'd want to do but take a step back and think about it for a moment. A building collapsed and is unstable. It's unfortunate that one person has died, and there might be a couple more.

And it takes 4 plus days to make it stable? A Union must have been in charge.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Boges

[capricorn]

The very worst criticisms may well turn out to be accurate, but as of yet, we just don't know.

Right bh. Emotions are running high when something tragic like this happens. Best to leave the experts do their jobs and do a post-mortem after the dust has cleared.

[bleeding heart]

And it takes 4 plus days to make it stable? A Union must have been in charge.

Were Mall maintenance unionized?

[Signals.Cpl]

And it takes 4 plus days to make it stable? A Union must have been in charge.

Since you are an expert in that field please tell us what should have been done and in what kind of a timeline, please be specific.

It seems to me that many people who are complaining would willingly send the HUSAR Team in to the building no matter how risky it is, save a life but add more casualties.

[Boges]

Since you are an expert in that field please tell us what should have been done and in what kind of a timeline, please be specific.

It seems to me that many people who are complaining would willingly send the HUSAR Team in to the building no matter how risky it is, save a life but add more casualties.

Well perhaps McDalton should have accepted Military help first of all.

Second they only made plans to get this heavy equipment after a shitstorm was created after the HUSAR people went home and had to be sent back.

[The_Squid]

The first rule of saving people is not to become a victim yourself. Once you do, you tie up valuable resources trying to save your ass when they should be saving victims.

I agree with the more sensible posts... There may well have been some very poor decisions. Let's wait until the response is analyzed before jumping to conclusions.

[scribblet]

Since you are an expert in that field please tell us what should have been done and in what kind of a timeline, please be specific.

It seems to me that many people who are complaining would willingly send the HUSAR Team in to the building no matter how risky it is, save a life but add more casualties.

That's the problem isn't it, the experts deemed it not safe because of the thousand pounds of concrete and unsafe conditions.

It's up to the premier to call in the Feds which McGuinty did on Tuesday, but I just read that the Premier and caucus were in Sudbury only a one hour and forty minute drive away but not one of them got up and left to go there.

However, we are still jumping the gun... I watch the tail end of the questions and answers this afternoon, Neadles said if he had to do it again he would make the same decision. So... all the armchair critics here need to get all the facts before jumping to conclusions.

http://www.globaltoronto.com/two+bodies+recovered+from+collapsed+elliot+lake+mall/6442669233/story.html

Neadles said the original plan was to use the heavy equipment to drop the arm of the heavy machinery into the gaping hole of the mall to retrieve a concrete slab that fell over an escalator.

The machinery, however, was unable to position itself on the ground.

The rescue team decided to focus its efforts on clearing the front entrance instead.

Once they were inside the building, they noted that the fallen concrete hadn’t collapsed because a beam had been jammed in between.

“We were not able to search in the area of the escalators because of serious risk factors,” Neadles said.

The two-storey centre was built in the early 1980s and received a passing grade last month following a structural examination, according to Eastwood Mall Inc., which owns the mall.

[Signals.Cpl]

Well perhaps McDalton should have accepted Military help first of all.

Second they only made plans to get this heavy equipment after a shitstorm was created after the HUSAR people went home and had to be sent back.

Just because the military offered help does not mean that they could be of much help in this situation. The military engineers could be well equipped for a different type of emergency and would just end up sitting on the sidelines waiting for HUSAR to clear the area.

We should look at each failure and try to fix them, for example, maybe we should create a larger degree of separation between the HUSAR Teams and politics, meaning that once they are on the ground they have the final say and their pick at all available municipal and provincial resources at their disposal. Lets say something like this mall collapse happens, HUSAR is called in and at the same time all emergency departments are put on notice that they are in effect subordinate to the HUSAR team and they should assist them in any way shape or form and at the same time leave the politicians on the sidelines. Once the initial emergency is declared then the HUSAR Commander on the ground is in charge, not the local mayor nor the local MP or MPP, not a minister of the Premier, the final authority rests with the Commander on the scene to request equipment and resources as he sees fit.

This way the people who know what to do are free do act in the best interest of the mission while the politicians get the reward of a job well done with out the chance to screw it up.

[Guest Peeves]

That's the problem isn't it, the experts deemed it not safe because of the thousand pounds of concrete and unsafe conditions.

It's up to the premier to call in the Feds which McGuinty did on Tuesday, but I just read that the Premier and caucus were in Sudbury only a one hour and forty minute drive away but not one of them got up and left to go there.

However, we are still jumping the gun... I watch the tail end of the questions and answers this afternoon, Neadles said if he had to do it again he would make the same decision. So... all the armchair critics here need to get all the facts before jumping to conclusions.

http://www.globaltoronto.com/two+bodies+recovered+from+collapsed+elliot+lake+mall/6442669233/story.html

Neadles said the original plan was to use the heavy equipment to drop the arm of the heavy machinery into the gaping hole of the mall to retrieve a concrete slab that fell over an escalator.

The machinery, however, was unable to position itself on the ground.

The rescue team decided to focus its efforts on clearing the front entrance instead.

Once they were inside the building, they noted that the fallen concrete hadn’t collapsed because a beam had been jammed in between.

“We were not able to search in the area of the escalators because of serious risk factors,” Neadles said.

The two-storey centre was built in the early 1980s and received a passing grade last month following a structural examination, according to Eastwood Mall Inc., which owns the mall.

As a few of us opined, what was being done was heroic and in the circumstance all that could have been done. Those that were accusing rescuers were as usually the case very premature.

The townspeople applauded their efforts once they understood the facts. The escalator was an impenetrable object that blocked any chance of progress without very heavy equipt. that was not at hand.

Sadly, after just a few hours following the collapse, it would not have mattered.

[Topaz]

CtV host Don, was talking to the head of the rescue in Toronto and he said after 2013, when the feds cuts start, the download to the provinces and the municipality will be very large and most can't afford the cost for them and so this team will disappear, leaving more people to probably die in one of these disasters. again, it seems this government is turning its back on safety and the people of this country. http://www.ctvnews.ca/federal-cuts-threaten-urban-search-and-rescue-teams-1.856622

[Signals.Cpl]

Is the HUSAR funding from the province and and all municipal governments in the province investing in to the team or is it just the province and the municipality where the team is stationed investing?

[Wild Bill]

I'm surprised that no one so far seems to have pointed out that outside of Elliot Lake itself, no one seemed to have noticed or made any decisions until after the weekend!

One would think that the need for heavy equipment would have been perfectly obvious immediately after the collapse. Shouldn't it have been ordered in within MINUTES of the disaster? Or at least a couple of hours?

This is the real issue here. Maybe the site was to dangerous for rescue workers, maybe it wasn't. Maybe whoever made the decision wasn't qualified. Whatever.

Maybe someone should have made decisions much more quickly. If autopsies show that a victim or victims lived in the rubble for a couple of days before they died then heads indeed should roll!

[Guest Peeves]

CtV host Don, was talking to the head of the rescue in Toronto and he said after 2013, when the feds cuts start, the download to the provinces and the municipality will be very large and most can't afford the cost for them and so this team will disappear, leaving more people to probably die in one of these disasters. again, it seems this government is turning its back on safety and the people of this country. http://www.ctvnews.ca/federal-cuts-threaten-urban-search-and-rescue-teams-1.856622

If we got rid of Mc Guinty and his wasteful green energy, fiascos like Ornge, his wasted monies in shutting down plants for political votes, millions on E Health, and the like we could fund things.

Lets look closer to home, millions pissed down the drain by Liberal buffoons that couldn't govern a little league ball team.

[Guest Peeves]

I'm surprised that no one so far seems to have pointed out that outside of Elliot Lake itself, no one seemed to have noticed or made any decisions until after the weekend!

One would think that the need for heavy equipment would have been perfectly obvious immediately after the collapse. Shouldn't it have been ordered in within MINUTES of the disaster? Or at least a couple of hours?

This is the real issue here. Maybe the site was to dangerous for rescue workers, maybe it wasn't. Maybe whoever made the decision wasn't qualified. Whatever.

Maybe someone should have made decisions much more quickly. If autopsies show that a victim or victims lived in the rubble for a couple of days before they died then heads indeed should roll!

I think the now explained facts contradict your presumptions from what I heard last evening on the late news coverage and interviews.

[bleeding heart]

Lets look closer to home, millions pissed down the drain by Liberal buffoons that couldn't govern a little league ball team.

To be fair, I used to coach little league, and those little bastards were an unruly group.....

[Shakeyhands]

If we got rid of Mc Guinty and his wasteful green energy, fiascos like Ornge, his wasted monies in shutting down plants for political votes, millions on E Health, and the like we could fund things.

Lets look closer to home, millions pissed down the drain by Liberal buffoons that couldn't govern a little league ball team.

A guy i know once said, and I quote...

Anyone with a political agenda that wishes to simply be argumentative however,will usually look for grist for their personal mill.

[Signals.Cpl]

To be fair, I used to coach little league, and those little bastards were an unruly group.....

You just made my day...

[GostHacked]

We should look at each failure and try to fix them, for example, maybe we should create a larger degree of separation between the HUSAR Teams and politics, meaning that once they are on the ground they have the final say and their pick at all available municipal and provincial resources at their disposal. Lets say something like this mall collapse happens, HUSAR is called in and at the same time all emergency departments are put on notice that they are in effect subordinate to the HUSAR team and they should assist them in any way shape or form and at the same time leave the politicians on the sidelines. Once the initial emergency is declared then the HUSAR Commander on the ground is in charge, not the local mayor nor the local MP or MPP, not a minister of the Premier, the final authority rests with the Commander on the scene to request equipment and resources as he sees fit.

All that just makes sense to me. I would fully support that kind of procedure. The rescue commander would know what needs to be done. And having the resources on standby also makes total sense.

But this seems to come at the same time the government is reducing it's commitment to funding search and rescue teams. Which will make these operations a lot more difficult.

[Signals.Cpl]

All that just makes sense to me. I would fully support that kind of procedure. The rescue commander would know what needs to be done. And having the resources on standby also makes total sense.

But this seems to come at the same time the government is reducing it's commitment to funding search and rescue teams. Which will make these operations a lot more difficult.

Im kind of hoping that the government and the PM sees the light on this one, as it seems stupid cutting the budget when it is clear that there are significant shortcomings.

[GostHacked]

Im kind of hoping that the government and the PM sees the light on this one, as it seems stupid cutting the budget when it is clear that there are significant shortcomings.

If this is how they claim they are reducing government and the cost, it's like blowing smoke right up my ass. All those people on Parliament Hill need to get a haircut.

[Signals.Cpl]

If this is how they claim they are reducing government and the cost, it's like blowing smoke right up my ass. All those people on Parliament Hill need to get a haircut.

Here is the thing though, how many people would have cared about a funding cut to the 5 HUSAR teams? The point at which people start noticing and complaining is when something like this happens then people ask where is the Elite SAR team we had?

[Guest Peeves]

Im kind of hoping that the government and the PM sees the light on this one, as it seems stupid cutting the budget when it is clear that there are significant shortcomings.

Apparently from what I glean from the 'news' media, after 911 there were additional rescue groups created.

These are now being evaluated as to need as should every program from time to time. Especially I would add those ad hoc programs.

I read some years back that the program to deal with ww2 rationing still had an office and staff 20 years after the war.

[capricorn]

CtV host Don, was talking to the head of the rescue in Toronto

Topaz, that guy is not the head of the rescue. Sean Tracey is with the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness that is essentially an advisory body on emergency preparedness. Your link says that Tracey was involved in developing the "standards" applied in the mall collapse.

Tracey has developed standards for some of the heavy urban search-and-rescue teams that have been at work in Elliot Lake, Ont., after a shopping mall collapsed over the weekend, killing two people and injuring 22 more.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/federal-cuts-threaten-urban-search-and-rescue-teams-1.856622

Now we learn that those "standards" or protocols as they are sometimes called are under review as a result of the mall collapse.

With two bodies pulled from the wreckage of Elliot Lake’s Algo Mall, Dalton McGuinty’s government is set to begin a grim review of whether Ontario’s own emergency-response processes undermined the ultimately fruitless rescue mission.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontarios-emergency-response-protocols-under-review-following-elliot-lake-disaster/article4375877/

So as far as Tracey's opinions on this matter, including proclaiming we may have to call on other countries to come to our assistance simply due to inadequate emergency funding, planning and resources, I reject them categorically. I think it best Tracey and his outfit go back to organizing conferences.

In 1989, a number of volunteers from the Regional Municipality of Hamilton-Wentworth organized a National Conference on Disaster Management that brought together professionals from emergency response and emergency management from across Canada to address many of the major events, topics and issues that had occurred in the late 1990’s. The great success of the conference led to two more conferences being held in 1991 and 1992.

Following the success of the third conference, the Municipality approached Mohawk College of Applied Arts and Technology with the objective of forming a not-for-profit organization to develop the conference into a World Conference. In 1993 the Canadian Centre for Emergency Preparedness was formally established as a federally incorporated non-profit organization based in Hamilton, Ontario.

http://www.ccep.ca/About/History.aspx

[Signals.Cpl]

Apparently from what I glean from the 'news' media, after 911 there were additional rescue groups created.

These are now being evaluated as to need as should every program from time to time. Especially I would add those ad hoc programs.

I read some years back that the program to deal with ww2 rationing still had an office and staff 20 years after the war.

The most permanent thing is a temporary solution.

We need one body to pool our resources in so that all those little programs that in many cases overlap and waste resources are reorganized in a better and more productive fashion. We need some way where an emergency happens within 2h we have people on the ground planning the response and a list of available resources being made available to the field commander which would include all provincial and municipal assets as well as any available military assets. We need efficiency as opposed to like you said creating a temporary solution that continually wastes money even after it is supposed to end.