Ivison: Kiss Supply Management Goodbye

[Michael Hardner]

Yes they are.

Rewards of fixing the food supply system.

-some say ~$300 off the average Canadian’s annual grocery bill

-I say BS, there are practically no rewards for fixing this perfectly fine system

"Fixing" means lowering prices. And I suspect it's a lot more than $300 for families.

versus

Rewards of fixing the health care system

-improved health and health care for all Canadians

-lower cost/taxes

How to fix the health care system is debatable. That's the point, we should be debating it instead.

The health care system needs fixing anyway, it's not either/or. And it's at least 20 years before this is done IMO.

[carepov]

"Fixing" means lowering prices. And I suspect it's a lot more than $300 for families.

The health care system needs fixing anyway, it's not either/or. And it's at least 20 years before this is done IMO.

As I stated earlier:

-Canadian families are spending record-low percentages of their income on food, this suggests that there is nothing to fix

-Maybe food costs 30% more in Canada than the US. So what. A lot of things cost 30% more in Canada. I would not assume that supply management = higher food prices.

I may have stepped on a landmine bringing up healthcare, you are right this is a monster problem... The point is we have limited problem-solving resources let's focus on the real problems. I take similar issue to those crying out to fix our troubled justice system. We are making a relatively small problem into a bigger problem!

Don't you think that there is a possibility that eliminating supply management will be a step backwards? Maybe it will work, maybe not either way IMO it is not worth changing the status quo. De-regulating Ontario-hydro comes to mind...

[Michael Hardner]

As I stated earlier:

-Canadian families are spending record-low percentages of their income on food, this suggests that there is nothing to fix

-Maybe food costs 30% more in Canada than the US. So what. A lot of things cost 30% more in Canada. I would not assume that supply management = higher food prices.

Basic economics says that we have a big opportunity to reduce costs somewhere and you're saying there's nothing to fix.

[carepov]

Basic economics says that we have a big opportunity to reduce costs somewhere and you're saying there's nothing to fix.

Maybe you are right, but its hard to imagine food costs any cheaper than they are now - the cheapest ever, and one of the cheapest in the world.

[Wild Bill]

We could drop prices to consumers, and help the poorest people in our society right away. Health Care will take a generation to revamp.

Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss!

No, the only tool governments have is to subsidize food prices. So we would all be taxed more to lower the price of food! Plus, we would have the additional costs of government inefficiencies, or would you really go so far as to suggest that the government could administer such subsidies very efficiently?

Even more ironic, subsidizing food prices is essentially what we are doing with supply management! The only difference is that the subsidies come directly from the end user, when he buys the product at an inflated price.

Seems to me that any form of tinkering in the market always gets ugly in the details...

[Michael Hardner]

Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss!

No, the only tool governments have is to subsidize food prices. So we would all be taxed more to lower the price of food! Plus, we would have the additional costs of government inefficiencies, or would you really go so far as to suggest that the government could administer such subsidies very efficiently?

Even more ironic, subsidizing food prices is essentially what we are doing with supply management! The only difference is that the subsidies come directly from the end user, when he buys the product at an inflated price.

Seems to me that any form of tinkering in the market always gets ugly in the details...

You don't seem to understand the issue. It's about allowing imports.

[Tilter]

A 'quart of milk or a dozen eggs or cheese etc. are 30% higher in Canada than in NY state.

Since those are basics, they hit the low income Canadian just to please (pretty much) Quebec.

could the cause of this be the huge subsidies given to the dairy farmers in the States?

Edited June 23, 2012 by Tilter

[Tilter]

I more or less disagree (it depends, I guess, on what exactly would be done), but my personal disagreement is beside the point; I would love to watch someone try to get elected in Canada on a Privatize Health Care proposal!

Watching crashes and burns is part of political theatre, I guess.

They're troubled; to call them "broken" is worse than exaggeration.

If health care & education aren't "broken" in Canada the sky isn't blue.

people having to wait 3 months for a service that is available in 2 days in the States is BROKEN. The fact that our education system is somewhat better at producing good student than out neighbours to the south is not an indication of "BETTER", it just means that they aren't as good at educating their poor (maybe because of the huge numbers of poor) than are we---- BUT we still have a lot of illiterate "graduates" here.

[Tilter]

Thanks Michael, I see it now. A mention indeed, although not really anything more.

Every housewife in Niagara who cross-border shops for groceries has been well aware for years of the price difference with American dairy products and also chicken. Someone mentioned 30%. There are always sales that make this figure much less accurate. Prices almost always are MUCH better than on the Canadian side.

This is what has always put the lie to those claims from talking heads that overall there are no savings from crossborder shopping. They compare things like electronics or whatever as an attempt to discourage people from going over the Peace Bridge.

Every housewife involved has always laughed at these claims! They don't cross the border for a new stereo! What's more, at the top of their grocery list are dairy products and chicken.

Try a premium grade Xmas Turkey @ 25 cents a pound compared to 2.00 in Canada

a gallon of milk fro 1.25 and a litre of gas for .85, Canadian 20 year ago prices Except for the gas

[Wild Bill]

Try a premium grade Xmas Turkey @ 25 cents a pound compared to 2.00 in Canada

a gallon of milk fro 1.25 and a litre of gas for .85, Canadian 20 year ago prices Except for the gas

I forgot about turkeys! I don't know if ANYONE from Hamilton to Niagara Falls buys their Thanksgiving turkey in Canada anymore!

[Canuckistani]

If health care & education aren't "broken" in Canada the sky isn't blue.

people having to wait 3 months for a service that is available in 2 days in the States is BROKEN. The fact that our education system is somewhat better at producing good student than out neighbours to the south is not an indication of "BETTER", it just means that they aren't as good at educating their poor (maybe because of the huge numbers of poor) than are we---- BUT we still have a lot of illiterate "graduates" here.

Are you suggesting we adopt their healthcare system, that it's better than ours? How long will your wait be down there if your illness is deemed a pre-existing condition? If you go to the wrong hosptial in an emergency and your HMO tells you you're not covered in that hospital? If your co-pays bankrupt you or the insurance company tries every trick in the book to retroactively deny coverage and have you pay back what they paid out? If you lose your job and have no coverage what so ever?

Assuming you're one of the few with Cadillac care and you are actually covered for your illness, are you willing to pay 1.6 times as much for that care as we do now? Where will that money come from?

[CPCFTW]

Where will that money come from?

Lower taxes.

[Canuckistani]

Lower taxes.

How does that math work? We pay 1.6 (more actually since that ratio is based on GDP, and theirs is higher than ours) times more for care, but lower taxes will pay for it? Yes your taxes will go down as they no longer pay quite for quite as much healthcare. (The with medicare, medicaid and veterans care the US system is about 50% public anyway.) But now your employer faces a big whack to provide you with care that costs 1.6 times as much. What do you think will happen to your wages under that system? Also you will likely find that you have to kick in a good chunk of your wages every month towards your health care - I certainly did. Makes our health premiums look like peanuts and that's for poorer coverage than we have here (HMO). And, if you do use the insurance there's the co-pays.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Canuckistani

[CPCFTW]

How does that math work? We pay 1.6 (more actually since that ratio is based on GDP, and theirs is higher than ours) times more for care, but lower taxes will pay for it? Yes your taxes will go down as they no longer pay quite for quite as much healthcare. (The with medicare, medicaid and veterans care the US system is about 50% public anyway.) But now your employer faces a big whack to provide you with care that costs 1.6 times as much. What do you think will happen to your wages under that system?

I'm not necessarily talking about the US-style system... I'm not a fan of their system either. In fact, I think that any public system is pretty much doomed to failure with our aging demographics, longer retirements, ballooning costs, etc. No one wants to die.

The percentage of our national budgets dedicated to health care is ludicrous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png

23% health care. 20% social security.

Pretty simple way to eliminate the budget deficit and slash taxes dramatically... stop giving people a free ride.

Edited June 23, 2012 by CPCFTW

[Canuckistani]

I'm not necessarily talking about the US-style system... I'm not a fan of their system either. In fact, I think that any public system is pretty much doomed to failure with our aging demographics, longer retirements, ballooning costs, etc. No one wants to die.

What do you see as an alternative then?

[CPCFTW]

What do you see as an alternative then?

You wouldn't like my alternatives. Tax everyone far less, make them pay their own way. If you have the sniffles, you have to decide whether you want to pay $20 to see the doctor for 10 minutes, or if you want to just drink plenty of fluids and get some rest.

Perhaps a RHSP.

Edited June 23, 2012 by CPCFTW

[Canuckistani]

You wouldn't like my alternatives. Tax everyone far less, make them pay their own way. If you have the sniffles, you have to decide whether you want to pay $20 to see the doctor for 10 minutes, or if you want to just drink plenty of fluids and get some rest.

Perhaps a RHSP.

No, I don't like your alternative. No developed country has a system anywhere near what you describe.

And if I get cancer or need a heart operation? Could you afford to take that hit? What if those sniffles turn out to be the symptom of something serious? Personally I don't know anybody that runs to the doctor for a cold - who has the time.

[CPCFTW]

Personally I don't know anybody that runs to the doctor for a cold - who has the time.

That's the problem. The people that do have the time don't pay anything in.

[Wild Bill]

You don't seem to understand the issue. It's about allowing imports.

The OP said it was about "Harper is going to have to drop protectionism". Protectionism is essentially synonymous with our supply management boards.

Hence the addition of such to the discussion, along with how entrenched these systems are and how various parts of the country would react to any changes.

What did I miss? We cannot simply allow imports! American dairy products are banned at the border because of supply management systems.

[Canuckistani]

That's the problem. The people that do have the time don't pay anything in.

Who are these people exactly?

[Michael Hardner]

The OP said it was about "Harper is going to have to drop protectionism". Protectionism is essentially synonymous with our supply management boards.

Yes.

Hence the addition of such to the discussion, along with how entrenched these systems are and how various parts of the country would react to any changes.

What did I miss? We cannot simply allow imports! American dairy products are banned at the border because of supply management systems.

Your question: "Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss!"

This is how: we simply allow imports. We do it as part of a deal in dropping other tariffs. I'm 100% convinced that Harper, an economist, wants to do this.

[eyeball]

Yes.

Your question: "Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss!"

This is how: we simply allow imports. We do it as part of a deal in dropping other tariffs. I'm 100% convinced that Harper, an economist, wants to do this.

Why not a deal to raise other countries human right's, environmental protection, and labour standards to the same level of playing field we play at? I'm pretty much convinced Harper's lowering of our's is the wrong way to go.

[GostHacked]

Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss!

A good look at the whole grocery business from farm to vendor to grocer depot to store. The rising price of fuel make the grocery industry raise their prices. However now that oil prices are lower than last year, there is no reduction of the cost of filling up the trucks with fuel at the pump. Transportation of grocery goods is very expensive. and is the most costly part of the business.

Typically a grocery store only makes, on a really good day, 2% profit. Its the huge volume they do in order to make it profitable.

But the farmers are not getting much more money than they did 20 years ago. I'd argue they are making less. Also with how the industry is run, there are only a few vendors to get certain product. And these vendors sell to all the retail markets. The mom and pop farms are almost gone too. Most of it is corporate operated and with government rules, if the mom and pop can't maintain minimum specs (which are too high for small local independent farms), they cannot sell their stuff to the big distributors.

Any rise in fuel price hits first the farmer (fuel to operate equipment), then the buyer(same thing), then the vendor(same thing), then the distributor (same thing) then the retail market (same thing), and then your wallet (again it costs to fill up your car to get to the store unless you are on foot).

No, the only tool governments have is to subsidize food prices. So we would all be taxed more to lower the price of food! Plus, we would have the additional costs of government inefficiencies, or would you really go so far as to suggest that the government could administer such subsidies very efficiently?

Subsidies should end.

Even more ironic, subsidizing food prices is essentially what we are doing with supply management! The only difference is that the subsidies come directly from the end user, when he buys the product at an inflated price.

Good point.

Seems to me that any form of tinkering in the market always gets ugly in the details...

[GostHacked]

Your question: "Just HOW would we drop prices to consumers, Michael? We can't tell the farmers,wholesalers or grocery stores to just drop their profits or even sell at a loss!"

Some items in the grocery store (as an example) is sold at a loss to get people in the store to buy other products that will make a profit. One particular group of item that you buy that the store sells at a loss, soft drinks. It costs more to bring Coke and Pepsi in than what it is sold for.

If retail sold Coke and Pepsi for more than what they pay for, you would not want to afford it anymore. It's crazy expensive as it is now. Prices have gone up, while you can buy a neutered 6 pack (6X250ML)for more than a 12 pack 10 years ago.

[Topaz]

After reading the following article, Canada may not gain all that much but when it stated that Canada would have yo agree to all agreements, I wondered what would happen if they came after Canada on environment, even though this is suppose to be about markets. http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1216011--what-s-behind-canada-s-entry-to-the-trans-pacific-partnership-talks