"EU boss lashes out at Stephen Harper"

[Michael Hardner]

Its an oversimplification to simply say "they lived beyond their means". And Im not saying we should separate the government from the public, but its time we stopped pretending that the EU represents people in Europe. Polls in a growing number of countries suggest the people of Europe dont want these unelected bankers running the show anymore.

Yet, these unelected bankers supported their lifestyles, and under your plan the bankers will be rewarded with default. Also, you're asking for direct aid to the people who benefited from that loaned money.

They don't want bankers running the show anymore, which I guess means they will be running without deficits moving forward.

We shouldnt be strenghtening or lending legitimacy to these dangerous people... we should be helping Europeans to rid themselves of these people, and strongly encouraging European states to leave the doomed eurozone.

I think maybe the democratic nations that believed that borrowed money would be supplied without end are also dangerous.

[cybercoma]

topaz and the rest probably believe the UN humans rights commision ,that because of the student protests in quebec we are as bad as syria.

Show me where the UN Human Rights Commission said Canada is "as bad as Syria."

[dre]

Yet, these unelected bankers supported their lifestyles, and under your plan the bankers will be rewarded with default. Also, you're asking for direct aid to the people who benefited from that loaned money.

They don't want bankers running the show anymore, which I guess means they will be running without deficits moving forward.

I think maybe the democratic nations that believed that borrowed money would be supplied without end are also dangerous.

Also, you're asking for direct aid to the people who benefited from that loaned money.

THey didnt benefit from it. THey suffered from interest rates that were set way too low for their national economies, and ECB policies generated false economics booms that eventually collapsed. Same thing that happened in the US.

And Im not asking for aid. Im saying that if we ARE going to help, we should talk to our European friends bilaterally, and not give money to the Brussels Bungelers that caused most of these problems in the first place.

They don't want bankers running the show anymore, which I guess means they will be running without deficits moving forward.

Youre confused what defecits are if you think that the ECB is required for these countries to run them. Canada can run deficits without surrendering political power to international bankers... We own and control our central bank. But these European countries were coerced into giving up control of their most important institutions without any democratic process what-so-ever.

[Wild Bill]

Really?

That would finally be the deal-breaker?

Did you read the rest of my post? There is no point in leaving one choice for a few differences if there is no other even close!

That's why guys like me tend to be a bit bitter. We never get a choice we truly approve, only one that smells less than the others.

Harper makes me gag at times but the Liberals truly reek, while the NDP would knock a buzzard off a manure wagon!

Edited June 20, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Michael Hardner]

THey didnt benefit from it. THey suffered from interest rates that were set way too low for their national economies, and ECB policies generated false economics booms that eventually collapsed. Same thing that happened in the US.

They didn't benefit from borrowed money paying for their social system for years, decades ?

If those interest rates had been higher, then they would have paid even more for their benefits.

Youre confused what defecits are if you think that the ECB is required for these countries to run them. Canada can run deficits without surrendering political power to international bankers... We own and control our central bank. But these European countries were coerced into giving up control of their most important institutions without any democratic process what-so-ever.

I assume that a central banker is still a banker. Are you happy with how the central banks in Canada and the US set interest rates then ?

[jacee]

Harper has been in charge for 6 years now. Though he is not wholly responsible for the current enviable state of Canada's finances, he certainly played a part.

Ya he's responsible for the $50b deficit ... shovelling millions to his oil friends and supporters (AND $60m for oil sands promotion ... er ... 'alternate technologies'), and let's not forget the $50m 'border' gazebo in Muskoka, $2b on the G20 fiasco ... the list goes on.

The man has done NOTHING to improve our economic situation and a lot of deterioration has happened on his watch and with his help, especially shovelling money from the rest of us to (rich) Alberta

What he says and what he does (with our money) are two different things.

I wouldn't even go there, smallc.

[Canuckistani]

dre, on 20 June 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

THey didnt benefit from it. THey suffered from interest rates that were set way too low for their national economies, and ECB policies generated false economics booms that eventually collapsed. Same thing that happened in the US.

They didn't benefit from borrowed money paying for their social system for years, decades ?

If those interest rates had been higher, then they would have paid even more for their benefits.

They didn't ultimately benefit, did they? Is the current pain or that from the collapse of the US housing bubble worth the previous illusion of prosperity? If you pig out and then run out of food and starve, you suffer a lot more than if you eat moderately and have enough food to last you. If the true cost of their social system had been apparent they would have moderated it and not be suffering so much now. If you retire at 50, because that is what the system allows you to do, and then at 60 you find there's no more pension money, you're a lot worse off than if you had worked to 60 in the first place.

[dre]

They didn't benefit from borrowed money paying for their social system for years, decades ?

If those interest rates had been higher, then they would have paid even more for their benefits.

I assume that a central banker is still a banker. Are you happy with how the central banks in Canada and the US set interest rates then ?

They didn't benefit from borrowed money paying for their social system for years, decades ?

No they suffered greatly. Did the US benefit on balance from the fed policies that caused the mortgage meltdown?

Malinvestment doesnt help anyone. If you loan a guy making minimum wage money to buy a mansion you are not doing him a favor at all. Not only are you guaranteeing HIS financial demise, but you are throwing the taxpayers under the bus as well because they will be expected to bail the banks out when all this malinvestment comes back to bite them in the ass.

If those interest rates had been higher, then they would have paid even more for their benefits.

If those interest rates had been higher Greece would have a stable economy now.

The ECB hasnt done anyone any favors at all. They have taken money from taxpayers in Europe around the world, and made terrible investments and loans with it, and destroyed a number of European economies. And now on the heals of all this malinvestment their big plan is to have tax payers around the world bail them out.

But even more important is the grave threat this institution and institutions like it pose to democracy and self determination. These bankers have conspired to create an organization that has a gigantic ammount of power over national economies, but is no longer controlled by any elected government. These are extremely dangerous people and they need to be put out of business, and brought back under the control of elected national governments.

If Canada is going to provide assistance to European states it should be done on the condition that they leave the Eurozone. The idea that we would lend legitimacy to an institution that the people of Europe oppose, and one that is destroying national economies is utterly ridiculous.

[dre]

Harper has been in charge for 6 years now. Though he is not wholly responsible for the current enviable state of Canada's finances, he certainly played a part.

That "enviable state" is an illusion based on temporary economic growth that was powered by depleting Canadians savings to dangerously low levels, and by cutting interest rates to dangerously low levels in order to prevent a national market based correction in our realestate market.

These are very dangerous and shortsighted policies. We now have the second most overvalued realestate market in the world, and the lowest personal savings rate in modern history. These are exactly the conditions that lead to the meltdown in the US.

[Moonlight Graham]

Apparently Canada was minutes away from lining up at the IMF in 1994, according to John Manley. I wouldn't say we should be lecturing anyone. You never know when we will be the ones that need the IMF and the European nations will say, "hey, remember that time?" Also, the problems in Europe are a direct result of America's "creative" banking practices that lead to the collapse in 1998. Not that Canada is responsible for what the United States banking sector does; however, spitting on the Europeans and telling them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they find themselves in serious trouble due to someone else's actions is pretty dickish.

On the other hand, I do agree with you. Yours was my original stance. Yes, it's probable Canada will at some point need some outside help, and it's not wise to brush off close allies. Also, what's best for Europe's economy is in large part best for ours. A huge dip in their economic health hurts us inevitability. On the other hand, Europe wants Canada to give $430 billion in a bailout package to the IMF for Europe. That's almost $24,000 for every working Canadian (about 18,000,000). STICK IT IN YER EAR!

[bleeding heart]

I can't believe what I am reading, some people would burn this place down to spite harper and I would take harper's word on the rule of law on these matters ,then some hatefull lefties on this board. Let me guess ,topaz and the rest probably believe the UN humans rights commision ,that because of the student protests in quebec we are as bad as syria.We have it so good in tghis country , but yet the left is still not happy. What will make the left happy, that we go down with europe. Like they say misery loves company and the canadian left is very miserable.

Why sully a post with cheap, unwarranted psychoanalysis?

I am often considered to be of this thing we call "the left"...and I am a lucky and contented man.

Yet for some perverse reason, I refrain from giving Father Harper all the credit. Must be my partisan instincts.

[bleeding heart]

Harper has been in charge for 6 years now. Though he is not wholly responsible for the current enviable state of Canada's finances, he certainly played a part.

Then--by definition--he plays a part in all the things that aren't so good.

Unless our measuring devices are painted Tory blue, of course. Then it's the opposition that's at fault, or the Americans, or the blameless vagaries of international finance.......

[bleeding heart]

Did you read the rest of my post? There is no point in leaving one choice for a few differences if there is no other even close!

That's why guys like me tend to be a bit bitter. We never get a choice we truly approve, only one that smells less than the others.

Harper makes me gag at times but the Liberals truly reek, while the NDP would knock a buzzard off a manure wagon!

Well, it would seem an awful lot of people are in agreement with you...but their word-for-word critique simply places the three parties in different positions on your stink-scale.

[Moonlight Graham]

I think you mean Paul Martin knew what he was doing ... not that I agree ... but Canada's fiscal situation has very little to do with Harper. If he keeps shooting off his mouth, some international leader may just remind him of that.

You simply DO NOT disparage other countries as Harper has without expecting be be disparaged in return. Harper is an embarrassment to Canada and Canadians.

Well, I never said Harper was the cause of Canada's strong fiscal situation. I also wouldn't be so quick to simply give Paul Martin all the credit. The Chretien government cut the deficit/debt, and the Finance Minister in any Canadian government certainly does not have absolute influence and authority over the budget. They, like most ministers, ultimately take their orders from the top. How much influence did Chretien/Martin/others have on the Liberal budgets? One can only speculate the breakdown.

Also, our banking and finance sectors are regulated well, apparently, and I honestly have no idea who is responsible for that, but it certainly wasn't Harper.

If Harper was smart diplomatically and still wanted to keep his nose out of the Eurozone crisis he should just flip them 50 million, say he helped, and call it a day.

[Michael Hardner]

They didn't ultimately benefit, did they? Is the current pain or that from the collapse of the US housing bubble worth the previous illusion of prosperity?

Illusions of prosperity presumably include some trappings of prosperity, i.e. a government salary, benefits of some kind. It hasn't ended well, but as I have said the people voted for this directly or indirectly.

If you pig out and then run out of food and starve, you suffer a lot more than if you eat moderately and have enough food to last you. If the true cost of their social system had been apparent they would have moderated it and not be suffering so much now. If you retire at 50, because that is what the system allows you to do, and then at 60 you find there's no more pension money, you're a lot worse off than if you had worked to 60 in the first place.

I agree. And it sounds like there's culpability there.

[Michael Hardner]

No they suffered greatly. Did the US benefit on balance from the fed policies that caused the mortgage meltdown?

Individuals benefited, but it's a different situation.

Malinvestment doesnt help anyone. If you loan a guy making minimum wage money to buy a mansion you are not doing him a favor at all. Not only are you guaranteeing HIS financial demise, but you are throwing the taxpayers under the bus as well because they will be expected to bail the banks out when all this malinvestment comes back to bite them in the ass.

US and Greece are different situations, but yes you're right.

The ECB hasnt done anyone any favors at all. They have taken money from taxpayers in Europe around the world, and made terrible investments and loans with it, and destroyed a number of European economies. And now on the heals of all this malinvestment their big plan is to have tax payers around the world bail them out.

We have said on this thread that Canadian money won't be used for that.

But even more important is the grave threat this institution and institutions like it pose to democracy and self determination. These bankers have conspired to create an organization that has a gigantic ammount of power over national economies, but is no longer controlled by any elected government. These are extremely dangerous people and they need to be put out of business, and brought back under the control of elected national governments.

It seems to me that Greece is a democratic country, and that their leadership was elected and didn't manage the economy well enough. There's nothing about democracy that says people will pay your way.

If Canada is going to provide assistance to European states it should be done on the condition that they leave the Eurozone. The idea that we would lend legitimacy to an institution that the people of Europe oppose, and one that is destroying national economies is utterly ridiculous.

Why didn't the people of Greece choose to reduce government spending and increase effective taxation years ago ? How is this the bankers' fault ?

[Canuckistani]

Illusions of prosperity presumably include some trappings of prosperity, i.e. a government salary, benefits of some kind. It hasn't ended well, but as I have said the people voted for this directly or indirectly.

I agree. And it sounds like there's culpability there.

Not by the people themselves, they had the wool pulled over their eyes. The culpability is with the bankers and the politicians. I think we're at the point where we need wealth confiscation for these ill gotten gains, instead of always the lower income people having to pay for the depredations of the rich. Yes, the average Greek needs to feel some pain - no more retirement at 50, strict enforcement of the tax system. But it's the people at the top who should really have to take the hit.

[dre]

Individuals benefited, but it's a different situation.

US and Greece are different situations, but yes you're right.

No these situations are actually very similar, and in fact the crisis in Greece was caused in part by the crisis in the US. Greeces fiscal regime was based on projections from the Greek national statistical agency, and after 2007 their projections did not materialize.

Much like the crisis in the US, when interest rates and too low and credit is too easy, the result is too much debt.

We have said on this thread that Canadian money won't be used for that.

Thats exactly what it will be used for.

It seems to me that Greece is a democratic country, and that their leadership was elected and didn't manage the economy well enough. There's nothing about democracy that says people will pay your way.

The people of Greece were not told truth.

What Greece has is a classic credit bubble. Overly easy credit conditions created a false boom exactly like they did in the United States.

The Greek economy was one of the fastest growing in the eurozone from 2000 to 2007; during that period, it grew at an annual rate of 4.2% as foreign capital flooded the country.[11] A strong economy and falling bond yields allowed the government of Greece to run large structural deficits.

This meme about the "lazy greeks" is really just bullshit parroted by people that havent read up on what went on. Greeks increased their output by nearly 40% during that time. Most economists put the maximum sustainable debt to gdp ratio for Greece at about 120% and Greece never exceeded that until it was slammed by the US housing collapse.

During this entire time bankers were telling Greece they were just fine! "Come on down and get some more money!".

The fact is Greece is suffering from a bust/boom cycle caused by the ECB. A classic, garden variety economic bubble inflated with malinvestment and overly easy credit conditions set by the ECB itself.

Thats not to say the Greek government does not share in the blame. They should never have joined the Eurozone and this turned out to be an almost fatal mistake. By accepting the terms of this bailout package which include ammending the Greek constitution to put debt maintenance ahead of other nation priorities, and privatizing revenue generating public property and assets, they have no made another potentially fatal mistake.

Why didn't the people of Greece choose to reduce government spending and increase effective taxation years ago ? How is this the bankers' fault ?

Because there was massive economic growth at the time and bond yields were extremely low. And not only was the ECB telling Greece that everything was just fine, but their own agencies that track financial statistics gave people bad information.

In regards of 2009 the flawed statistics made it impossible to predict accurate numbers for GDP growth, budget deficit and the public debt; which by the end of the year all turned out to be far worse than originally anticipated. As the new Greek government acknowledged the need for a stronger statistical credibility, both in order to restore the trust among financial investors and as a mean for the government to better know the level and necessity of future economic reforms (in advance), they then pledged to correct all previous statistical methodological issues, "by making the National Statistics Service an independent legal entity and phasing in, during the first quarter of 2010, all the necessary checks and balances that will improve the accuracy and reporting of fiscal statistics".

This sums it up pretty nicely right here...

Initially, currency devaluation helped finance the borrowing. After the introduction of the euro in January 2001, the devaluation tool disappeared. Throughout the next 8 years, Greece was however able to continue its high level of borrowing, due to the lower interest rates government bonds in euro could command, in combination with a long series of strong GDP growth rates. Problems however started to rise, when the Global Financial Crisis peaked with negative repercussions hitting all national economies in September 2008. The Global Financial Crisis had a particularly large negative impact on the GDP growth rates in Greece. Two of the country's largest industries are tourism and shipping, and both were badly affected by the downturn, with revenues falling 15% in 2009.[16]

Greece made a huge mistake getting involved with international eurocrats and bankers in the first place. They lost the ability to devalue in order to manage debt enjoyed by countries like Canada and the US, and then they were the victim of monetary policy and interest rates which were not designed for Greece.

Then while the ECB was pumping up the bubble in the Greek economy as fast as they possible could suddenly the global financial crisis his, and this crisis hit Greece much harder than most other countries because Greece is so reliant on things like shipping and tourism.

Edited June 20, 2012 by dre

[Michael Hardner]

Not by the people themselves, they had the wool pulled over their eyes. The culpability is with the bankers and the politicians.

They enjoyed the services, the government salaries, and voted for politicians who eschewed austerity.

I think we're at the point where we need wealth confiscation for these ill gotten gains, instead of always the lower income people having to pay for the depredations of the rich. Yes, the average Greek needs to feel some pain - no more retirement at 50, strict enforcement of the tax system. But it's the people at the top who should really have to take the hit.

You mean like investors who have to take a fraction on the dollar for their investments in banks and bonds ? Done.

[Smallc]

Ya he's responsible for the $50b deficit ... shovelling millions to his oil friends and supporters (AND $60m for oil sands promotion ... er ... 'alternate technologies'), and let's not forget the $50m 'border' gazebo in Muskoka, $2b on the G20 fiasco ... the list goes on.

Right, and he's responsible for none of the good things. This government is really no different than any other relatively competent government.

The man has done NOTHING to improve our economic situation and a lot of deterioration has happened on his watch and with his help, especially shovelling money from the rest of us to (rich) Alberta

Well, that's your opinion. Canada's per capita GDP is now at probably its highest ever level, over 50K.

I wouldn't even go there, smallc.

That's because you're a partisan hack.

That "enviable state" is an illusion based on temporary economic growth that was powered by depleting Canadians savings to dangerously low levels, and by cutting interest rates to dangerously low levels in order to prevent a national market based correction in our realestate market.

These are very dangerous and shortsighted policies. We now have the second most overvalued realestate market in the world, and the lowest personal savings rate in modern history. These are exactly the conditions that lead to the meltdown in the US.

Our real estate market was supposed to crash over a year ago according to many analysts...still waiting. There is definitely too much debt out there, but that is far from the sole reason for our economic and government budget situation that most of the western world envies. Paul Martin gets most of the Credit, but Harper and Chretien definitely deserve a great deal also.

Then--by definition--he plays a part in all the things that aren't so good.

Would you expect me to disagree?

Unless our measuring devices are painted Tory blue, of course. Then it's the opposition that's at fault, or the Americans, or the blameless vagaries of international finance.......

Well, much of what is wrong is, truly, the fault of the Americans and the Europeans...but then, without them, we'd be nothing anyway...

[dre]

They enjoyed the services, the government salaries, and voted for politicians who eschewed austerity.

You mean like investors who have to take a fraction on the dollar for their investments in banks and bonds ? Done.

What austerity!!! Greeks debt to GDP ration was under what most economists told them was sustainable, the ECB was buying up Greek bonds with extremely low yields, and they had one of the strongest growth economies in Europe.

Who exactly were Greeks supposed to vote for to get this austerity? Go ahead and tell us! Greeks financial apparatus and its banks were telling both the people and the government that everything was fine. The ECB were telling the Greek people and government that everything was fine, and buyers of bonds were sending Greece a signal that everything was fine.

This is rubbish Michael. This entire meme youre parroting is not supported by any of the data or facts.

Go ahead and tell us who Greeks were supposed to vote for between 2001 and 2007 in order to avoid a debt crisis caused by global financial crisis that nobody saw coming!

[Topaz]

Are you sure, Topaz? I'd really like you to provide a cite or two to prove this. Frankly, I think you are wrong and I will not believe you until you back up your words with something more.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/power-play/june-20/#clip703079 YOU wanted it and you have it, about 2 minutes and 15 seconds in, You can say you were wrong later.

[Topaz]

I can't believe what I am reading, some people would burn this place down to spite harper and I would take harper's word on the rule of law on these matters ,then some hatefull lefties on this board. Let me guess ,topaz and the rest probably believe the UN humans rights commision ,that because of the student protests in quebec we are as bad as syria.We have it so good in tghis country , but yet the left is still not happy. What will make the left happy, that we go down with europe. Like they say misery loves company and the canadian left is very miserable.

Go read my reply to Wild Bill today.

[Smallc]

What austerity!!! Greeks debt to GDP ration was under what most economists told them was sustainable,

They were...the problem was, no one was paying taxes.

[dre]

Our real estate market was supposed to crash over a year ago according to many analysts...still waiting. There is definitely too much debt out there, but that is far from the sole reason for our economic and government budget situation that most of the western world envies. Paul Martin gets most of the Credit, but Harper and Chretien definitely deserve a great deal also.

Our realestate market wont crash as long as they keep dumping money into the economy to keep consumer spending up.

My guess is 2014.

There is definitely too much debt out there, but that is far from the sole reason for our economic and government budget situation that most of the western world envies. Paul Martin gets most of the Credit, but Harper and Chretien definitely deserve a great deal also.

Actually politicians generally dont deserve much credit when the economy is good, or much blame when its bad. They play a very very small part, and they generally all do the exact same things.

It IS true that Canada at least controls and owns its own central bank which was an important factor in us being able to weather the storm better than many other nations... But its not Mr Martin, or Mr Harper that deserves credit for that its Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King.

Beyond that our economic state has very little to do with the government and politicians and a lot more to do with things like the price of oil doubling, and strong demand for many of exports by emerging nations.