Argus Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 I totally disagree. We should have complete control over their behaviour no matter where they are and especially when they have any kind of dealing with another government. The last thing I want is some government that's worse than our's screwing over their own people's lives or the ecosystems they depend on at the behest of one of our corporations. We have no more business exporting them abroad without strict controls than we do meat from a mad cow and for the very same reason. Isn't that playing the role of the great white overseer who knows better than the locals? We're supposed to supplant the local government by deciding what's good for the people under that government regardless of what that government says? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 That unreported crime argument just doesn't make sense. Violent crimes are reported. People show up to hospitals and dead bodies don't go unreported or uninvestigated. Why is it when the facts don't line up with ideologies, people always resort to the line that stats lie? To suggest we can't rely on stats because there's some unmeasurable amount of unreported crime just doesn't make any sense. I'm sure there has always been some unmeasurable amount of unreported crime, but those crimes are not the serious violent crimes that require the kind of crime & punishment policies being advanced. Quote
Argus Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 You are probably right and I am being too optimistic/naive. I am however getting more bitter and cynical with evry passing year... I have little trust in elected officials, however for some reason I imagine that government civil servants are working towards the best interests of Canadians. Generally speaking, this seems to be true, at least in my experience. However, government politicians are another matter entirely. I appreciate the Fraser report, learned from it and is has dampended my enthusiasm for immigration. However, in the long term (>20 years) immigrants catch up and I still think that the current level is reasonable. It's been a while since I read it, but my memory, and that of the other statistics released over the past several years is that the economic performance of immigrants has been worsening, and that they are no longer catching up. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Isn't that playing the role of the great white overseer who knows better than the locals? We're supposed to supplant the local government by deciding what's good for the people under that government regardless of what that government says? Quit playing stupid please. You know darn tootin' that's not what I mean at all. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Peeves Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 That unreported crime argument just doesn't make sense. Violent crimes are reported. People show up to hospitals and dead bodies don't go unreported or uninvestigated. Why is it when the facts don't line up with ideologies, people always resort to the line that stats lie? To suggest we can't rely on stats because there's some unmeasurable amount of unreported crime just doesn't make any sense. I'm sure there has always been some unmeasurable amount of unreported crime, but those crimes are not the serious violent crimes that require the kind of crime & punishment policies being advanced. Well, you may take that position, but; many rapes,violent assaults,fraud cases, spousal violence,senior abuse, child abuse,intimidation by gang bangers over drugs, gun smuggling and sale,insurance fraud,embezzlement, sex slavery on immigrants, and cultural criminal behavior (FGM, forced marriage,polygamy,subjugation of women), indeed are serious crimes often unreported. Add them to the stats and you get a different picture. Quote
Canuckistani Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 In terms of the impact of immigration to economy-wide wage levels, Statistics Canada estimates that for every 10% increase in the population from immigration, wages in Canada are now reduced by 4% on average (with the greatest impact to more skilled workers, such as workers with post-graduate degrees whose wages are reduced by 7%)[32].....A 2003 study published by Statistics Canada noted that "in 1980 recent immigrants had low-income rates 1.4 times that of Canadian born, by 2000 they were 2.5 times higher, at 35.8%."[40] The study noted that the deterioration was widespread and affected most types of immigrants. The 2003 study explains that the low-income rate among non-immigrants declined in the 1990s, but this was more than offset by the income profile of new immigrants, resulting in a net rise in Canada's total low-income rate. An updated January 2007 study by Statistics Canada, explains that the deterioration continued into the next decade, with the low-income rate of recent immigrants reaching rates of 3.5 times that of Canadian born in 2002 and 2003, before edging back to 3.2 times in 2004.[1] The 2007 study explains that this deterioration has occurred even though Canada implemented changes in 1993 to encourage more highly educated immigrants, with 45% of new immigrants having university degrees as of 2004. In 1991 the Economic Council of Canada found that periods of immigration were not directly linked to periods of high growth. They noted that "a historical perspective gives little or no support to the view that immigration is needed for economic prosperity. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, the fastest growth in per capita real incomes occurred at times when net immigration was nil or negative. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_immigration_to_Canada Quote
Michael Hardner Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Wage reductions for highly skilled workers were likely a goal of increased immigration. This is also called improved productivity. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Canuckistani Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Wage reductions for highly skilled workers were likely a goal of increased immigration. This is also called improved productivity. I'm sure for the same reason the govt allows temp workers to work at Tim Horton's and to pay temp workers 15% less than the prevailing wage. I guess we'll be the most productive country in the world soon, but with 3rd world wages. Quote
cybercoma Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) Wage reductions for highly skilled workers were likely a goal of increased immigration. This is also called improved productivity. I'm sure for the same reason the govt allows temp workers to work at Tim Horton's and to pay temp workers 15% less than the prevailing wage. I guess we'll be the most productive country in the world soon, but with 3rd world wages. Bingo. It's all about making the numbers look good for investors, so they can make that cheddar. F the working class. Edited June 17, 2012 by cybercoma Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Bingo. It's all about making the numbers look good for investors, so they can make that cheddar. F the working class. Ahem....the "working class" are investors too. Stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. They must like "cheddar" just as much. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Ahem....the "working class" are investors too. Stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. They must like "cheddar" just as much. Not according to the numbers they're not, but there's no point in going down that path again because you refused to acknowledge it the first time around. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Not according to the numbers they're not, but there's no point in going down that path again because you refused to acknowledge it the first time around. Not necessary, as anybody with a lick of sense knows how pension funds are invested, public and private...union or non-union....working or retired. The answer is still the same. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 And everyone knows that fewer and fewer people are actually getting pensions anymore. Quote
Argus Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 That unreported crime argument just doesn't make sense. Violent crimes are reported. It makes sense to me. I know people who have been robbed, who have been beaten, who have been raped, who have been burglarized, who have been defrauded, and they see no point in contacting police. They don't think the police will do much, and even if they catch the person responsible they doubt any justice will be handed out. And they fear massive paperwork, being called down for interviews, having to go through all sorts of hassle for nothing. This is what Stats Canada says. The numbers of those who are not reporting have consistently risen from one study to the next. You love their stats when they talk about crime reductions but you dismiss them out of hand when they say that fewer victims of crime are reporting it to police. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 And everyone knows that fewer and fewer people are actually getting pensions anymore. Stop dodging....whether a defined benefit or defined contribution plan, the money has to go somewhere, and that includes money from and to "the working class". Some "working class" class people even buy company stock at a discount, something that those evil investors seeking "cheddar" can't usually do. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Quit playing stupid please. You know darn tootin' that's not what I mean at all. It's what the end result would be. Look, I have as little respect for most third world countries as anyone. But what you are saying is that we can't trust them to do the right thing so we should police how corporations act in their jurisdictions. You can't really get around that. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Canuckistani Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 And everyone knows that fewer and fewer people are actually getting pensions anymore. As wages are being driven down, so are pension plan contributions. Fewer and fewer defined benefit plans. So I'm not sure accepting lower wages due to immigration is such a clever strategy for the workers. And, the wage depression happens because more people are competing for the same number of jobs - ie is somebody takes a job at a lower wage, somebody else is out of a job altogether. That drives up the draw on government in the form of EI and welfare, so the people working have to pay more taxes. Seems like a bad deal all around. Quote
Argus Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Wage reductions for highly skilled workers were likely a goal of increased immigration. This is also called improved productivity. What gets me is all the major unions in Canada are unhesitatingly supportive of massive immigration. I think that just goes to show you the degree to which the ideologues who seem to consistently rise to the top of big unions ignore the well-being of their own workers in favour of their own ideological beliefs. The Left in Canada is thrilled by immigration, no matter what it's effect on the economy or society. And I'll say this. If all immigrants came from white countries, the Left in Canada would be completely opposed to immigration. The only reason the Left supports immigration is because they feel some sort of white liberal guilt which is somehow partially assuaged by 'saving' some 'brown people'. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 Bingo. It's all about making the numbers look good for investors, so they can make that cheddar. F the working class. Could you tell me why the NDP is so completely supportive of mass immigration then? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Canuckistani Posted June 17, 2012 Report Posted June 17, 2012 What gets me is all the major unions in Canada are unhesitatingly supportive of massive immigration. I think that just goes to show you the degree to which the ideologues who seem to consistently rise to the top of big unions ignore the well-being of their own workers in favour of their own ideological beliefs. The Left in Canada is thrilled by immigration, no matter what it's effect on the economy or society. And I'll say this. If all immigrants came from white countries, the Left in Canada would be completely opposed to immigration. The only reason the Left supports immigration is because they feel some sort of white liberal guilt which is somehow partially assuaged by 'saving' some 'brown people'. Seems so. It's a ridiculous concept to take the best and brightest from 3rd world countries, taking all the investment that country has in those people, and then pat ourselves on the back how we're helping them, yet that is exactly one of the arguments that's put forward in terms of high immigration to Canada. That's why if you say you are against immigration in the large numbers we have now, the race card is inevitably plaid - I've seen it on this forum, tho not this thread, thank God. It's apparently our duty as guilty white people to take in immigrants from non-white countries. In fact it's getting to the point that immigration to Canada is seen as a right, rather than a privilege. Quote
eyeball Posted June 18, 2012 Report Posted June 18, 2012 It's what the end result would be. Look, I have as little respect for most third world countries as anyone. But what you are saying is that we can't trust them to do the right thing so we should police how corporations act in their jurisdictions. You can't really get around that. No you're still dodging what I'm saying which is the fact that we can't trust our corporations to not take advantage of the shitty governments in these jurisdictions. We have a responsibility to protect human beings not the corporations and governments that abuse them. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted June 18, 2012 Report Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) It makes sense to me. I know people who have been robbed, who have been beaten, who have been raped, who have been burglarized, who have been defrauded, and they see no point in contacting police. No way. The only person who could know so many people who have suffered such a range of serious crimes is either the person who inflicted them or one of the shitty cops you're accusing. They don't think the police will do much, and even if they catch the person responsible they doubt any justice will be handed out. And they fear massive paperwork, being called down for interviews, having to go through all sorts of hassle for nothing. This is what Stats Canada says. The numbers of those who are not reporting have consistently risen from one study to the next. You love their stats when they talk about crime reductions but you dismiss them out of hand when they say that fewer victims of crime are reporting it to police. It's a ridiculous argument. Edited June 18, 2012 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Michael Hardner Posted June 18, 2012 Report Posted June 18, 2012 What gets me is all the major unions in Canada are unhesitatingly supportive of massive immigration. I think that just goes to show you the degree to which the ideologues who seem to consistently rise to the top of big unions ignore the well-being of their own workers in favour of their own ideological beliefs. Immigration helps those union workers, I'm sure. How many new immigrants are going to get a job on the line at GM ? Not many. And if they do, they will still get a union wage. New immigrants do buy cars though. The Left in Canada is thrilled by immigration, no matter what it's effect on the economy or society. And I'll say this. If all immigrants came from white countries, the Left in Canada would be completely opposed to immigration. The only reason the Left supports immigration is because they feel some sort of white liberal guilt which is somehow partially assuaged by 'saving' some 'brown people'. Pure conjecture. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
carepov Posted June 18, 2012 Report Posted June 18, 2012 You know what they say about statistics... Let's examine the first. Crime is at a 40 year low? The reporting of crime is at a 40 year low. Stats Canada's own figures show that more and more people are not bothering to report crimes to police, even serious crimes, largely because they don't think it will do any good due to inadequate police investigations and limp wristed sentencing. Let's look at 90+% being happy. Given that this number would have to include virtually everyone not actually living in poverty, and even some who are. Does that make sense to you? I mean, according to the statistics about 10% of Canadians are living in poverty. Do you really think everyone else is satisfied? Ie, the ones working two jobs to scrape by and pay the rent? Hi Argus, First of all, I know that this discussion of crime is off topic since no one has suggested that increased immigration has caused an increase in crime rates. If anything, I would assume that recent immigrants are more law abiding than the average population. One way to measure this would be to ask: are recent immigrants under or over-represented in the prison population? Does anyone have an answer? That said, I am always interested in debating crime trends. I looked into the crime statistics and learned a few things. 1. Regarding unreported crime, the best source I found was: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/article/11340-eng.htm Nothing I found suggests that crimes are being reported less often - especially serious crimes 2. As I said, there is no question that overall crime rates are down, however there seems to be a negative trend in Level 2-3 assaults. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2009004/article/10930-eng.htm Does anyone know why? Regarding Life Satisfaction (happiness) I agree that today’s scores >90% do not mean anything when looked at alone - I regret even bringing it up. However the fact that Canada rank #5 in the world is significant. Quote
Guest Peeves Posted June 18, 2012 Report Posted June 18, 2012 Well, you may take that position, but; many rapes,violent assaults,fraud cases, spousal violence,senior abuse, child abuse,intimidation by gang bangers over drugs, gun smuggling and sale,insurance fraud,embezzlement, sex slavery on immigrants, and cultural criminal behavior (FGM, forced marriage,polygamy,subjugation of women), indeed are serious crimes often unreported. Add them to the stats and you get a different picture. I forgot political chicanery... that might involve millions...billions,payoffs in Quebec..or just a diamond ring. Quote
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