August1991 Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) The federal government has passed legislation to end this strike, forcing some 5000 CP workers back to work. "Harper is an anti-union, neo-liberal dictator." Or so the imagined CBC-listener meme goes. But there is far more involved here, and that includes striking Quebec students. A major issue in the CP strike was pensions: The pension offer being made to the union representing some 4,800 striking Canadian Pacific Railway employees is better than the industry standard, the company said Friday as contract negotiations continued ahead of looming back-to-work legislation.The railway operator said the Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, which represents workers at CP as well as employees at its chief competitor Canadian National Railway (TSX:CN) among others, has agreed to the same provisions at other railways that striking workers have been offered. The union disagrees with CP's assessment, but the railway operator says an internal analysis suggests the company's latest offer on pensions, health spending accounts and work rules are equivalent to those the Teamsters have in place with its primary competitor. CTVGod knows who is right here. Pensions (superannuation) are always confusing until you are confronted, just before retirement, with determining the exact monthly amount. And sitting in a small cubicle, you realize that this is your future. -- But here's the twist. Who owns CP Rail? The Ontario Teacher's Union Pension Fund and the CPPIB: Several large institutional investors including the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan and the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, have signalled that they are voting for Ackman’s slate.The giant Teachers’ pension fund holds at least $100 million in CP Rail, and as of March 31, 2011, CPP was invested in CP Rail, though it is unclear whether it still has that stake. Its annual report is due out later this week. Toronto StarProxy fight? Activist investor Bill Ackman won overwhelming support from large institutional investors Thursday, but some ordinary shareholders remain unsure if he is the right choice. Toronto StarThe activist investor looking to shake up the board of Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd. and oust its CEO has won another endorsement from a major Canadian pension fund. Pershing Square Capital Management said the Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board has given its backing to the entire seven-member Pershing slate a week before the railway's annual meeting in Calgary. "We are grateful for the support of CPPIB, one of Canada's largest and most respected pension investors," Pershing Square CEO and founder Bill Ackman said in a release. CBCIn effect, two State-sanctioned pension funds have decided that their beneficiaries matter more than the pensions of 5000 no-name workers. ---- This is a bunfight, and I'm surprised that the Harper government got involved. I suspect that Harper merely reckoned that without taking sides in the bunfight, a CP Rail strike would be costly to Canada. A legislated end makes sense. Bunfight? Well, we now have older Canadians fighting for the proverbial piece of the pie. At first glance, the CPPIB and Teacher's seem to have the upper hand. They have the financial clout, and the State-backing - 5000 CP workers don't. How could a few thousand CP Rail workers defend themselves against such "organized" people? Enter Quebec students. Another, broader bunfight ensues. Students want no tuition increases and would prefer free post-secondary education. GND wants rich corporations to pay tuition fees. In effect, GND wants pension funds - owners of corporations - to receive lower returns. So now, young students are fighting with established pension funds for the proverbial piece of the pie. In such light, Teacher's and the CPPIB do not seem so powerful. Their State-sanction power could melt away if the political winds shift. After all, students are our future. Pensioners will soon die. ---------------------- Meanwhile, students don't study and the CPPIB/Teacher's/Caisse make investment decisions in - let's be honest - a political world, and without - let's be more honest - accountability. The key point here is that when animals waste time fighting over a carcass, they are not hunting for new food. Edited June 4, 2012 by August1991 Quote
Topaz Posted June 2, 2012 Report Posted June 2, 2012 It seems like to me we are going back to the future of the 60's when workers did have to strike for their benefits.Since the strike also affect US workers too, I wonder if Harepr was getting pressure from Obama too. This company is not a poor company with profit in the billions in both countries. As far as the students, they should have had their own strike instead, reduced the number of students and they may get what they want. One thing to consider is the high debt these people carry and many wouldn't be able to pay this debt off for many years and that could affect consumer buying for the next generation. Quote
August1991 Posted June 4, 2012 Author Report Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) It seems like to me we are going back to the future of the 60's when workers did have to strike for their benefits.Since the strike also affect US workers too, I wonder if Harepr was getting pressure from Obama too. This company is not a poor company with profit in the billions in both countries.Topaz, Ontario teachers and all Canadian pensioners own CP Rail. The "profits" are their pension. This is modern capitalism.Apparently, the Harper government has sided with Ontario teachers and CPP recipients, to the detriment of CP Rail retirees. As far as the students, they should have had their own strike instead, reduced the number of students and they may get what they want. One thing to consider is the high debt these people carry and many wouldn't be able to pay this debt off for many years and that could affect consumer buying for the next generation.How is individual student debt different from collective government debt?Either governments charge students now for their education or governments borrow the money and collect the money from (some) graduated students later in life. At issue, really, is which person will pay the cost. Is this a restaurant meal with separate bills, or do you have one restaurant bill split evenly? ---- Topaz, we increasingly live in a one restaurant bill world and people are arguing about who is ordering what. And sadly, too many sit hungry while we debate the order. Edited June 4, 2012 by August1991 Quote
August1991 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) Topaz, I fear that you didn't understand my meaning. The key point here is that when animals waste time fighting over a carcass, they are not hunting for new food.This debate of Quebec students and public pensions is ultimately the result of a "zero sum game" perception of life.Quebec students want the rich to pay; Ontario teachers want better benefits than CP Rail retirees. They are both arguing/fighting how to share pieces of a pizza. They perceive life as: "You got more and so necessarily, I got less." This is zero-sum thinking. As Belinda Stronach famously said, "we have to bake a bigger pie!" IOW, people should think in positive-sum terms. I am worried about something else: when people see life as a zero-sum game, life risks becoming a negative-sum game. People fight others for a share of the pie, and the fight makes the pie smaller. Pizza pieces fall on the floor, and no one gets them. ---- Make no mistake: This is what is happening in Quebec, and what is happening in Canada's public sector union movement. More broadly, it is also happening in Europe. Zero-sum thinkers believe the pizza is fixed in size. They are inadvertently destroying wealth (pizza pieces) to get their share of the (supposedly fixed size) pizza. Edited June 7, 2012 by August1991 Quote
dre Posted June 7, 2012 Report Posted June 7, 2012 Topaz, I fear that you didn't understand my meaning. This debate of Quebec students and public pensions is ultimately the result of a "zero sum game" perception of life. Quebec students want the rich to pay; Ontario teachers want better benefits than CP Rail retirees. They are both arguing/fighting how to share pieces of a pizza. They perceive life as: "You got more and so necessarily, I got less." This is zero-sum thinking. As Belinda Stronach famously said, "we have to bake a bigger pie!" IOW, people should think in positive-sum terms. I am worried about something else: when people see life as a zero-sum game, life risks becoming a negative-sum game. People fight others for a share of the pie, and the fight makes the pie smaller. Pizza pieces fall on the floor, and no one gets them. ---- Make no mistake: This is what is happening in Quebec, and what is happening in Canada's public sector union movement. More broadly, it is also happening in Europe. Zero-sum thinkers believe the pizza is fixed in size. They are inadvertently destroying wealth (pizza pieces) to get their share of the (supposedly fixed size) pizza. This debate of Quebec students and public pensions is ultimately the result of a "zero sum game" perception of life. No this is just crap. Tuition is supposed to double over the course of the next few years and thats going to mean many thousands of students will not be able to attend post-sec that could now. This isnt about wanting a bigger piece of the pie, its that because of OUR behavior (generation:useless) our kids are going to be lucky to get any pie at all. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
August1991 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) No this is just crap. Tuition is supposed to double over the course of the next few years and thats going to mean many thousands of students will not be able to attend post-sec that could now.University tuition in Quebec is not the reason why far too many Quebec high school students never finish. Or why 30% of Quebec high school students go to private, fee-paying high schools.[Fer gawdsakes, GND - like Justin Trudeau - went to a private high school and his parents paid $3000 annual (subsidized) tuition fees.] This debate sadly is about saavy people ordering in the resto when they know there will be a single resto bill. (And apparently, the Ontario Teacher's Federation union is more saavy than the CP Rail union.) This isnt about wanting a bigger piece of the pie, its that because of OUR behavior (generation:useless) our kids are going to be lucky to get any pie at all.IOW, you want your share, before the pie is all gone."... any pie at all." Dree, you show that you are a non zero-sum thinker. --- Fortunately, for the rest of us, life itself is not a zero-sum game. Unfortunately for the rest of us, people like you dre have access to other people's bank accounts. Que Dieu me sauve de cette folie... Edited June 7, 2012 by August1991 Quote
dre Posted June 7, 2012 Report Posted June 7, 2012 "... any pie at all." Dree, you show that you are a non zero-sum thinker. --- Fortunately, for the rest of us, life itself is not a zero-sum game. Unfortunately for the rest of us, people like you dre have access to other people's bank accounts. Jesus... what garbage. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted June 7, 2012 Report Posted June 7, 2012 Fortunately, for the rest of us, life itself is not a zero-sum game. Unfortunately for the rest of us, people like you dre have access to other people's bank accounts. The 'zero sum game' meme that you use is a good one to remind us that economics is about activity not about dividing up a fixed sum. However, you can't use that meme/tool to frame every economic discussion and dispute. Just like you can't use a hammer for every task that calls for a tool: sometimes you need a screwdriver. In business people will fight for advantage, that's just part of the game and it happens every time. It's not always a result of people not understanding the 'zero sum game' meme. Businesses also fight over assets, vying for control over majority stock - you can't use the 'zero sum game' meme there because it IS zero sum: they're competing for something that is limited in supply. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
thoughtpolice Posted June 7, 2012 Report Posted June 7, 2012 The Ontario Teachers Union is not established or run for the benefit of Quebec students, the Canadian public or railway workers. It is a profit making entity for the benefit of Ontario teachers, retired and to be retired. They make hard nosed decisions in their interest, not the public welfare in general. Much the same is true of the CPP Board. Quote
Fletch 27 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Posted June 7, 2012 We are going into the future where workers haveto WORK! Like the rest of us... Planning our own financial destination and when we want to retire and how well we want to retire... WIThOUT dragging our employers (and yes, our kids employers) down to financial ruin. You would like to bleed your kids employers dry with your big pensions? You are heartless... You guys are all about immediate gratification and your fancy things NOW! Be a man, work for a living, plan wisely, retire early... Don't do it on your kids backs... It seems like to me we are going back to the future of the 60's when workers did have to strike for their benefits.Since the strike also affect US workers too, I wonder if Harepr was getting pressure from Obama too. This company is not a poor company with profit in the billions in both countries. As far as the students, they should have had their own strike instead, reduced the number of students and they may get what they want. One thing to consider is the high debt these people carry and many wouldn't be able to pay this debt off for many years and that could affect consumer buying for the next generation. Quote
dre Posted June 8, 2012 Report Posted June 8, 2012 We are going into the future where workers haveto WORK! Like the rest of us... Planning our own financial destination and when we want to retire and how well we want to retire... WIThOUT dragging our employers (and yes, our kids employers) down to financial ruin. You would like to bleed your kids employers dry with your big pensions? You are heartless... You guys are all about immediate gratification and your fancy things NOW! Be a man, work for a living, plan wisely, retire early... Don't do it on your kids backs... Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Jack Weber Posted June 8, 2012 Report Posted June 8, 2012 We are going into the future where workers haveto WORK! Like the rest of us... Planning our own financial destination and when we want to retire and how well we want to retire... WIThOUT dragging our employers (and yes, our kids employers) down to financial ruin. You would like to bleed your kids employers dry with your big pensions? You are heartless... You guys are all about immediate gratification and your fancy things NOW! Be a man, work for a living, plan wisely, retire early... Don't do it on your kids backs... Submission to authority complex in full effect... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
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