Is Sweden going too far re: gender neutrality?

[Guest American Woman]

Can Kids Be Raised in a Gender-neutral Society? Sweden Thinks So

In an effort to support gender neutrality, Sweden recently added a gender-neutral pronoun, "hen," [as opposed to han and hon] to the country's National Encyclopedia. Slate reports that several preschools in Sweden have stopped making references to the gender of their students. Instead of calling children "boys and girls," teachers are referring to students as "buddies." One school even stopped allowing free playtime during the day because "stereotypical gender patterns are born and cemented. In free play there is hierarchy, exclusion, and the seed to bullying."

I definitely think that is going too far. Children need to understand that there are differences between boys and girls; I think it would be rather confusing not to understand. Seems to me the very idea of taking away gender identities is teaching children that there's something wrong with being identified as a boy or a girl; ie: there is inequality in the very existence of being one or the other. And not allowing free play? Are these kids going to grow up 'pre-programmed?'

Understandably, some Swedes think the idea of "gender equality" has gone too far -

what has sharpened the debate in Sweden has been the argument that schools should also be gender neutral, giving children the opportunity to define themselves as neither male nor female if they wish.

As gender-neutral policies are promoted more broadly in Sweden's schools – including the use of a neutral pronoun to refer to boys and girls – some Swedes are pushing back.

The government has spent millions of dollars promoting gender equality in the schools, and while that would be a good thing, I think there's a huge difference between "gender equality" and "gender neutrality." Apparently a lot of Swedes think so, too -

it sparked a national furor, revealing that while most Swedes support gender equality, not all are on board with the idea of gender-neutral child-rearing.

I honestly cannot understand how anyone could be ok with with gender-neutral child rearing and wonder why good ideas so often have to be taken to the extreme by some 'enlightened thinkers.'

[The Right One]

should be easy for muslims to takeover.

next step is to probably dose all males with estrogen to make them effeminate.

Edited April 14, 2012 by The Right One

[Machjo]

As an interesting point of note, Persian has two second-person singular pronouns: "hu" (the animate pronoun used to refer to humans and higher animals), and "aan" (the inanimate pronoun used to refer to lower animals and objects). There is no separate masculine or feminine pronoun. So the issue of the pronoun is a non-issue and is quite normal in some languages.

In Esperanto likewise, there is one movement promoting the neutral animate pronoun "ri".

As for the rest of the article, I do agree it seems to be going too far unless there is some research with legitimate arguments to support this.

[eyeball]

I honestly cannot understand how anyone could be ok with with gender-neutral child rearing and wonder why good ideas so often have to be taken to the extreme by some 'enlightened thinkers.'

We live in a perennially violent world that appears to increasingly dysfunctional on many levels. I'm just surprised more people aren't pulling out different stops in an attempt to turn things around.

I think what we really need is a way to raise kids into ideologically-neutral adults.

[Michael Hardner]

I think the article is making it sound like this is more of an issue than it really is.

'several preschools in Sweden' ?

'Last fall, the Swedish Bowling Federation initiated a plan to make bowling gender neutral by getting rid of male and female tournaments.'

It sounds to me like the usual ebb and flow of social politics that we see all the time.

[Guest American Woman]

As an interesting point of note, Persian has two second-person singular pronouns: "hu" (the animate pronoun used to refer to humans and higher animals), and "aan" (the inanimate pronoun used to refer to lower animals and objects). There is no separate masculine or feminine pronoun. So the issue of the pronoun is a non-issue and is quite normal in some languages.

Yet there is a word for "boy" and for "girl," (girl - dokhtar and boy - pesar) so it's hardly "gender neutral."

As for the rest of the article, I do agree it seems to be going too far unless there is some research with legitimate arguments to support this.

Right off the top of my head, I have to wonder how one would answer the question - "why does Johnny have a penis?"

And as I said, prohibiting free play is in effect prohibiting emotion growth. I was serious with my reference to the kids being "pre-programmed." We can't force gender equality simply by denying that there are two different genders. It's not wrong that there are some differences between the sexes and to ignore them is to in effect say there is something wrong with it.

[Michael Hardner]

State effects to mandate culture are notoriously prone to failure. The French tried to change date and time systems after the French Revolution. It didn't take.

[Machjo]

State effects to mandate culture are notoriously prone to failure. The French tried to change date and time systems after the French Revolution. It didn't take.

Not always. Turkish language reform was a catastrophic success!

They replaced the script, standardized the grammar, etc. to the point where most Turks today would be hard-pressed to read Ottoman literature without specialized education at university.

On the flip side, the ministry of education is probably saving a bundle on literacy education owing to phonemic spelling and rationalized grammar along with no exceptions to the rules. The justice system is likely saving owing to a more literate population and thus fewer chronic unemployede.

Korean script reform proved a success too. In the 1300s, King Sae Jeong the Great convened a committee of scholars to create Hangol to replace the difficult Chinese script. There was much opposition among the elites, but the new script slowly spread among the less educated anyway until by the time of Japanese occupation in the last century, Hangol became a symbol of Korean identity and became official after independence.

We can recount similar stories from Indonesia, Israel with the introduction of Hebrew, etc.

While such reforms don't always succeed, they can sometimes be astounding successes.

[Michael Hardner]

While such reforms don't always succeed, they can sometimes be astounding successes.

Some great counter examples there. Some of the reasons for the successes from above:

1 ) As with Hebrew, the people wanted it.

2 ) The government had more control, either because of the zeitgeist or because of they had more control.

[Machjo]

Yet there is a word for "boy" and for "girl," (girl - dokhtar and boy - pesar) so it's hardly "gender neutral."

Right off the top of my head, I have to wonder how one would answer the question - "why does Johnny have a penis?"

And as I said, prohibiting free play is in effect prohibiting emotion growth. I was serious with my reference to the kids being "pre-programmed." We can't force gender equality simply by denying that there are two different genders. It's not wrong that there are some differences between the sexes and to ignore them is to in effect say there is something wrong with it.

I agree with you overall. I just have a hard time believing they mean this legislation to be implemented to the same extreme you're proposing. If so, I can guarantee it won't last long.

[Machjo]

Some great counter examples there. Some of the reasons for the successes from above:

1 ) As with Hebrew, the people wanted it.

2 ) The government had more control, either because of the zeitgeist or because of they had more control.

As for point 2 above, even in the most authoritarian dictatorships, such fundamental changes to the language and culture will inevitably require popular support.

[-TSS-]

I think all Indo-European languages have different words for the third person singular depending whether we're talking about males or females. Non Indo-European languages such as Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and Turkish have only one word for the third person.

[Guest Peeves]

I'll go with the band...."Vive La Différence! (is Swedish Indie Pop band)

[Wild Bill]

Hey, it's Sweden! They are quite a ways down this 'unisex' path!

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/307262

"Young women in Sweden, Germany and Australia have a new cause: They want men to sit down while urinating."

...'more crucially because a man standing up to urinate is deemed to be triumphing in his masculinity, and by extension, degrading women.'' One argument is that if women can't do it, then men shouldn't either. Another is that standing upright while relieving oneself is ''a nasty macho gesture,'' suggestive of male violence."

I used to find Swedish women attractive but now I find them downright frightening!

[bud]

"Young women in Sweden, Germany and Australia have a new cause: They want men to sit down while urinating."

what about when it comes to women standing?

[Wild Bill]

what about when it comes to women standing?

Of course, that's different!

These bogus discrimination claims always work only one way. As a species, we seem to be especially thick! We implement affirmative action programs and then can't see how they are unfair to individuals, because of some ancestral obligation of a race. It is racism in reverse, which of course is just racism, period.

Someday we will achieve a Star Trek universe,where people are all just people. Unfortunately, we have to wade through a lot of politically correct crap first.

[Guest American Woman]

Hey, it's Sweden! They are quite a ways down this 'unisex' path!

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/307262

"Young women in Sweden, Germany and Australia have a new cause: They want men to sit down while urinating."

That has to be among the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. I can't even begin to imagine where they are coming from. It boggles the mind.

[Bonam]

Haha:

They want men to sit down while urinating. This demand comes partly from concerns about hygiene -- avoiding the splash factor -- but, as Jasper Gerard reports in the English magazine The Spectator, ''more crucially because a man standing up to urinate is deemed to be triumphing in his masculinity, and by extension, degrading women.'' One argument is that if women can't do it, then men shouldn't either. Another is that standing upright while relieving oneself is ''a nasty macho gesture,'' suggestive of male violence. A feminist group at Stockholm University is campaigning to ban all urinals from campus, and one Swedish elementary school has already removed them. Some Swedish women are pressuring their men to take a stand, so to speak. Yola, a 25-year-old Swedish trainee psychiatrist, says she dumps boyfriends who insist on standing. ''What else can I do?,'' said her new boyfriend, Ingvar, who sits.

I'll have to remember next time I'm peeing that I'm really "triumphing in my masculinity".

I like the "if women can't do it men shouldn't either" argument. Does that work in reverse? Since men can't become pregnant we should surgically remove that capability from women? Maybe add that option to the poll ;p By the way, women can definitely pee standing up too, that's what go girl is for. Quite convenient for the ladies when on hiking trips and other backcountry activities, from what I've heard.

Also, I don't know of any man who is prevented from standing up while peeing by the absence of a urinal. You can pee into a toilet bowl just as well as you can into a urinal. The only reason for urinals is that they are cheaper, take less space, and reduce the chance of missing.

As for that hag Yola, she's bound to live a lonely and sorrowful life if she dumps otherwise acceptable companions for something so trivial. Gotta learn not to sweat the small stuff. As for the poor pussy-whipped Ingvar... what else can he do? Forget Yola and order a Japanese kissable screen.

But, this is what happens when you take ultra-left wing social ideas and policies to their (il)logical extremes.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Bonam

[Michael Hardner]

But, this is what happens when you take ultra-left wing social ideas and policies to their (il)logical extremes.

I guess a good way to debase the arguments from people who oppose you is to tie a ridiculous view to the mainstream. I see leftists do this all the time, too. Bringing up guys such as the Norway shooter as examples of conservative viewpoints.

Most of us here would probably prefer to talk about real issues, though.

[Bonam]

I guess a good way to debase the arguments from people who oppose you is to tie a ridiculous view to the mainstream. I see leftists do this all the time, too. Bringing up guys such as the Norway shooter as examples of conservative viewpoints.

Most of us here would probably prefer to talk about real issues, though.

The Norway mass murderer is hardly the same thing as an illogical feminist group pushing for ridiculous bathroom renovations. Tying someone to an absurd article/poll is much less offensive than accusing someone of supporting a mass murderer. We talk about real issues plenty. There's nothing wrong with pointing out examples where certain ideas/movements go way too far.

[dre]

what about when it comes to women standing?

Yeah I guess woman should be allowed to stand. Hard to get the dishes and laundry done while sitting down!

[dre]

Now women can triumph in their masculinity as well, with the handy new PEE-MATE!

http://www.femalefreedom.ca/

[dre]

I think the article is making it sound like this is more of an issue than it really is.

'several preschools in Sweden' ?

'Last fall, the Swedish Bowling Federation initiated a plan to make bowling gender neutral by getting rid of male and female tournaments.'

It sounds to me like the usual ebb and flow of social politics that we see all the time.

BINGO!.

[Guest American Woman]

Boy or girl?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPYSWaWskw&feature=related

I still say that trying to deny differences, ignoring differences, ultimately sends the message that the differences are bad. I think it's good that toys aren't labeled as boy or girl toys, but to pretend that kids are just kids and not boys and girls makes no sense.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Also, I don't know of any man who is prevented from standing up while peeing by the absence of a urinal. You can pee into a toilet bowl just as well as you can into a urinal. The only reason for urinals is that they are cheaper, take less space, and reduce the chance of missing.

Missing is a big problem for janitorial staff who have to clean up the mess. I cleaned rest rooms at office buildings starting in the late 60's and we would fight over who had to clean the men's room because it was always a urine nightmare for the floors and fixtures. Women's rest rooms were so much easier because females sit down for #1 or #2, and they enforce a protocol that men don't have. The worst offenders were males who would pee all over a toilet seat, being too lazy or afraid to lift it with their hands (use your foot bro!).

Females can be seen standing in long lines because of such things, while men can breeze in and out of communal urinating trofts at large venues like stadiums.