F-35 Purchase

[eyeball]

Based on a design from 1990, they have had the same icebreaker for 20 years and yet you weren't scared but now that they will have what 2-3 of them you are scared. Here is an idea maybe they are looking to replace a 25 year old icebreaker they have just like us. I personally am not scared of on Chinese icebreaker we are building way more then that.

Judging by the condition of Canadian boats I've seen that are made from Chinese steel, it's no wonder China has to replace their's already.

Which begs the question, in addition to borrowing money from China to defend ourselves from China...where is Canada is getting the steel it's using for our new ships?

[punked]

If I'm scared, you're stupid.

No ideas what a nation like China...located mainly in the sub tropics...might need with nuclear icebreakers? Log jams on the Yellow River?

They have had Icebreakers of this type for almost 30 years. Why didn't you bring it up 30 years ago when they first built these ships.

[DogOnPorch]

They have had Icebreakers of this type for almost 30 years. Why didn't you bring it up 30 years ago when they first built these ships.

Who says I didn't?

[punked]

Judging by the condition of Canadian boats I've seen that are made from Chinese steel, it's no wonder China has to replace their's already.

Which begs the question, in addition to borrowing money from China to defend ourselves from China...where is Canada is getting the steel it's using for our new ships?

I think almost all the suppliers for the pieces of these ships are coming from Canada.

[Signals.Cpl]

No what I am saying is the NDP asked for things from the government, got them and weren't lied to so they were happy. With the plane they asked for things, didn't get them, were lied to, found out and were angry.

NDP was happy to NOT count the salary and operating cost for the CG and RCN ships.

NDP is complaining that the government is NOT counting the salaries and operating costs of the F-35.

Love your ethics

[punked]

Who says I didn't?

Give me a break.

[punked]

NDP was happy to NOT count the salary and operating cost for the CG and RCN ships.

NDP is complaining that the government is NOT counting the salaries and operating costs of the F-35.

Love your ethics

They are complaining because they asked the government a certain type of costing and the government lied to them. Pay attention.

[eyeball]

If I'm scared, you're stupid.

No ideas what a nation like China...located mainly in the sub tropics...might need with nuclear icebreakers? Log jams on the Yellow River?

Probably for the same reason a nation like Canada needs desert and jungle camouflage on it's equipment. The better to interfere in the affairs of others.

[eyeball]

I think almost all the suppliers for the pieces of these ships are coming from Canada.

Where are they getting their supplies for the pieces they're assembling? If it's China, we're probably going to need to double the costs of maintenance and replace everything much sooner.

Chinese steel is just pure crap.

[Signals.Cpl]

They are complaining because they asked the government a certain type of costing and the government lied to them. Pay attention.

Yeah, flip flop.

[waldo]

Yet the NDP does not put forth a complaint about the costs of the ships. Seems to me that NDP supporters go after the F-35's and claim the Conservatives lied about the cost yet they don't complain about the ships when the Conservatives used the same accounting policy with them. When the NDP launch a complaint about the NSPS then we can talk about my argument failing.

you're stating Harper Conservatives have only presented acquisition capital costs for NSPS? If so, which of the following are you asserting; either:

1- Treasury Board policy has been followed and full/complete NSPS costing exists? Accordingly, Harper Conservatives, purposely or inadvertently, have not provided the operational costs to Canadians.

2- Treasury Board policy has not been followed and Harper Conservatives have provided the only costs known/available.

which is... door number 1 or door number 2?

it would seem, whichever choice you pick, you prefer to place some "blame" towards Opposition parties... and no accountability towards Harper Conservatives - yes?

[DogOnPorch]

Give me a break.

Why? I doubt you were even alive. Your admiration for the Russians and Chinese way of doing things doesn't impress me or sway me. If China could dam Canada, run a wire across the Pacific and juice-up, it would in a heart beat. Myself, I'll do what I can to prevent that via civilized means. If you're counter to that, so be it. We'll not be friends.

[punked]

Yeah, flip flop.

Yeah maybe you can follow the thread a little closer.

Opposition asks for costing. Government says costing does not exist. AG points out costing does exist. You pretend like it is not the law to do this type of costing. Pointed out to you how you are wrong. You twist and turn to try and find an argument you can win when the argument is entirely about the government lying to parliament and the people about the books.

Keep twisting and turning pretending we don't have a government of liar who do not respect our democracy.

[punked]

Why? I doubt you were even alive. Your admiration for the Russians and Chinese way of doing things doesn't impress me or sway me. If China could dam Canada, run a wire across the Pacific and juice-up, it would in a heart beat. Myself, I'll do what I can to prevent that via civilized means. If you're counter to that, so be it. We'll not be friends.

I have no clue what you are talking about. You are doing just what they did in the 70-80s pretending the Commies are much more advanced then they are to justify crazy spending on things we don't need.

[DogOnPorch]

Probably for the same reason a nation like Canada needs desert and jungle camouflage on it's equipment. The better to interfere in the affairs of others.

Well, I already know that you, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.

[eyeball]

Myself, I'll do what I can to prevent that via civilized means. If you're counter to that, so be it. We'll not be friends.

You'd put up trade barriers against rogue nations that interfere in the affairs of others out of self-interest?

There's nothing stopping us from doing that and it would sure be lot more civilized and peaceful.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yet the NDP does not put forth a complaint about the costs of the ships. Seems to me that NDP supporters go after the F-35's and claim the Conservatives lied about the cost yet they don't complain about the ships when the Conservatives used the same accounting policy with them. When the NDP launch a complaint about the NSPS then we can talk about my argument failing.

May have something to do with the economic impact, don't you think? I mean really. Damned near everything in the ship program has a literal return on effort with the reality of taxation accounted for. The same is not true with the aircraft program. In this latest biggest ever military procurement program, all things are now virtually visible. To prove it we just have to look up your favorite news feed and see what happens. Jobs here or jobs there is the real question.

There are many ways to look at things, its called perspective. With a tax expenditure of this magnitude the people should certainly have some say in this. We are the guys paying the bill for crying out loud. This is what is supposed to happens when the government does things in a manner that is not acceptable to the public. Popular support is what any government needs to corner the market on in order to evade the public outcry. These public out cries will continue to shape the course of our political future as we learn to communicate. The nation state is about to become as extinct as the city state. We have as much of a clue as to what will come next as those that came before us, which is zilch.

It is becoming clear that we are living in interesting times. Just as when Parliament became supreme in England, the evolution of democracy in our time will seek larger forums of regional support. It is a logical conclusion to draw, it provides the ultimate political authority, a new layer of government and that is the international level. In order to accomplish this popular support for the extra level of government, they will need to convince the public that the ELIMINATION of all military expenditures outside of salaries for the warriors. This is how we force the changes that NEED to take place in the greater good of society.

The only sane policy toward the military is purely defensive in nature. To do more is to is literally offensive and intended to harm. That cannot be the human policy anywhere on the planet.

[DogOnPorch]

I have no clue what you are talking about. You are doing just what they did in the 70-80s pretending the Commies are much more advanced then they are to justify crazy spending on things we don't need.

You're right. We don't need to protect our Arctic. The Chinese will do a great job. They promise to clean-up.

[DogOnPorch]

You'd put up trade barriers against rogue nations that interfere in the affairs of others out of self-interest?

There's nothing stopping us from doing that and it would sure be lot more civilized and peaceful.

Your dream of one world one government will come true soon enough.

[capricorn]

What is right for a country like the US is not right for a country such as Canada.

Don't we need a cohesive North American defence strategy? I think the response to the recent Korean Airlines incident provides the answer.

Two American fighter jets escorted the plane back to Comox shortly after it left Vancouver International Airport.

“It was two F-15s from Portland, Ore. that conducted the intercept,” said Maj. Holly Apostoliuk from Winnipeg.

Within the North American Aerospace Defence Command agreement, NORAD can deploy the appropriate fighters to respond to a situation, and in this case those were the most appropriate aircraft, said Maj. Apostoliuk.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/military-jets-escort-korean-air-plane-to-cfb-comox-after-bomb-threat/article2397880/

With regard to continued cooperation with our US ally, the least we can do is have jet fighters that are as capable as theirs. Since the early 90's Canadian governments have recognized this as a prerequisite. That is the major reason Canada by-passed holding its own bidding process and entered into the joint strike fighter development venture.

[punked]

You're right. We don't need to protect our Arctic. The Chinese will do a great job. They promise to clean-up.

We are building more Icebreakers and better Icebreakers then the Chinese. You keep omitting this fact for some reason.

[DogOnPorch]

We are building more Icebreakers and better Icebreakers then the Chinese. You keep omitting this fact for some reason.

What's the plan? Ramming speed?

[Signals.Cpl]

you're stating Harper Conservatives have only presented acquisition capital costs for NSPS? If so, which of the following are you asserting; either:

1- Treasury Board policy has been followed and full/complete NSPS costing exists? Accordingly, Harper Conservatives, purposely or inadvertently, have not provided the operational costs to Canadians.

2- Treasury Board policy has not been followed and Harper Conservatives have provided the only costs known/available.

which is... door number 1 or door number 2?

it would seem, whichever choice you pick, you prefer to place some "blame" towards Opposition parties... and no accountability towards Harper Conservatives - yes?

What I am stating is that it is irrelevant what Harper did because the NDP is happy with one purchase without accounting for salary and operating costs and not happy with the other. The NDP could have brought this forth during the election informed the public that the conservatives were not salary and operation costs. If the NDP is inconsistent with their policy considering that one of the purchases happened while the conservatives were a minority they lose the moral high ground. You can't complain and support the same policy at the exact same time, you either inform the public about all such problems and run the risk of losing support in the ridings that are affected or don't complain at all. The conservatives were just doing what every government has done on a regular basis since at least the 50's purchase equipment and use the same accounting principles.

You are trying to justify the complaint about Harper by stating he lied about the 11 billion dollars for the F-35's while being silent on the potentially 40billion or more in the RCN and CG ships.

[punked]

What's the plan? Ramming speed?

Guess what we building to along with these superior Icebreakers? We are building superior war ships as well.

[punked]

What I am stating is that it is irrelevant what Harper did because the NDP is happy with one purchase without accounting for salary and operating costs and not happy with the other. The NDP could have brought this forth during the election informed the public that the conservatives were not salary and operation costs. If the NDP is inconsistent with their policy considering that one of the purchases happened while the conservatives were a minority they lose the moral high ground. You can't complain and support the same policy at the exact same time, you either inform the public about all such problems and run the risk of losing support in the ridings that are affected or don't complain at all. The conservatives were just doing what every government has done on a regular basis since at least the 50's purchase equipment and use the same accounting principles.

You are trying to justify the complaint about Harper by stating he lied about the 11 billion dollars for the F-35's while being silent on the potentially 40billion or more in the RCN and CG ships.

No one asked Harper for the costing of the Shipbuilding so he had no reason to lie. With the F-35s he did lie.