F-35 Purchase

[Moonbox]

I don't need to name another aircraft to make my point. That should be clear. Your silly attempt to get into a pissing match about jet specs is moot when it comes to ever more apparent inability of Lockhead Martin to deliver on the F-35.

It doesn't even matter 'when' the F-35 comes out. It's going to be a dog when that happens anyways.

[DogOnPorch]

It doesn't even matter 'when' the F-35 comes out. It's going to be a dog when that happens anyways.

For that reason then, Canada should invest heavily in aerospace industries and technologies here at home and get busy building the Arrow II. It's certainly not out of the question. But, it'll take retooling both in industry and education. Heck, I'm sure the Yankee Running Dogs would even help us up to a certain point. We'd have to be leary about the very things being complained about re: the Americans, mind you...

Hmmmm....Super Tucanos are only 14 million.

[Guest Derek L]

thanks scoop! But really, c'mon... are you truly saying that, within that overall 'diversification', all that LockMart layoff posturing isolates any/all impact to the JSFail F-35? Even in speculation you can't bring yourself to even contemplate any... any... impact to your favoured toy? Really?

Care to give a line by line account of what will, and what won’t be cut?

like I said, you're entrenched in a WWII mindset! You clearly haven't a clue about A2/AD... that really shines through when you speak of 'domestic' in an AD context. Man, you are a lightweight!

Since I haven’t a clue as stated by yourself, perhaps you’d care to enlighten me/us……….Clearly the Japanese strategy of taking over the various atolls in the Pacific then erecting extensive fortifications, mining the sea approaches and stockpiling (barely) enough food, water and ammunition on said islands was the very essence of a “A2/AD” strategy…….

For bonus points, care to share who first coined the term “A2/AD”? I’ll give you a hint:

The very organization that evicted the Japanese.

[Guest Derek L]

again, you can continue to ignore the quotes played back to you, repeatedly. Your continuing troll act was astutely pointed out for you by another MLW member... I suggested you take that to heart; instead you carry on with your clown act.

about that U.S. GAO quote you keep running/hiding from:

Still a no on providing said requested quote I see.....

[Guest Derek L]

you better send something to the South Korean Government - they really don't like being suckered by LockMart offering up "simulators" for evaluation! Is there a problem? Apparently, there were no air-worthy jets available... particularly any that can actually show results. Do you know... are the South Koreans willing to wait until 2017... 2018... 2019...???, before they can (promises, promises, promises) actually get their hands on a "representative jet"? You know... something beyond the vapourware you and the PorchDog are so enthralled with!

I guess that’s a no here too eh?

[Guest Derek L]

For what part? The Pentagon downgraded the F-35 from "very low observable" to "low observable" years ago. Google that. It's easy to find, so the fact remains that the Russians will have had 20+ years to refine their radar and infra-red to be able to see stealthier aircraft than the F-35.

As for manoeuverability, the wing-loading and weight/thrust ratios on the F-35 are lousy and those numbers are also easy to find, as are comparisons to existing aircraft. I'm not making this crap up, so unless the F-35 is complete paradigm shift in terms of aerodynamics etc, this thing is going to rely on aging stealth characteristics and BVR combat, which has never really been proven effective.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1177440--f-35-the-jet-that-ate-the-pentagon

Source? From your link:

In discussing the F-35 with aviation and acquisition experts — some responsible for highly successful aircraft such as the F-16 and the A-10, and others with decades of experience inside the Pentagon and years of direct observation of the F-35’s early history — I learned that the F-35’s problems are built into its very DNA.

And who wrote the piece:

Winslow Wheeler is director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Center for Defense Information. Previously, he worked for 31 years on national security issues for Republican and Democratic senators and for the Government Accountability Office. He is editor of the anthology The Pentagon Labyrinth: 10 Short Essays to Help You Through It.

[Guest Derek L]

That worked for the Allies in WWII in the form of the Sherman Tank. The sheer number of Shermans overwhelmed the more superior Panzers. What do you think?

No swarms of Typhoons, Mustangs and Thunderbolts overwhelmed the superior Panzers…….To add, said Panzers were also handicapped by severe shortages of fuel and ammo thanks to the B-17s, B-24s Lancaster’s etc…..

[Guest Derek L]

Cost vs Cost, the Spitfire would win by attrition lol. You could probably build 1000-2000 of them for the cost of 1 F-35, and each missile fired would cost more than the Spitfire it downed. There's a reason that the Boneyard in Arizone exists, and that's because if there ever was a full scale war again against a modern professional opponent, modern air assets would last, at best, a couple of months, and nobody could afford to replace them quickly. The F4 would be making a serious comeback.

The vast majority of aircraft left in Davis-Monthan are no longer airworthy and kept as a source of spare parts for the US and allies……..Very little Phantoms left too.

[Guest Derek L]

I don't think our CF-18s are useful enough to be on a modern battlefield. But, I think they could still be useful at airshows. I kind of wish the CAF could have kept one of their P-80/T-33s in top condition...perhaps doing it up in USAF Korean War colours. Those were some pretty aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-80_Shooting_Star

After the IMP upgrade they were brought up to the equivalent “C standard”, which are still play a very large part in both USN & USMC force projection……..Granted, airframe fatigue is what it is and they are certainly in need of replacement.

[DogOnPorch]

No swarms of Typhoons, Mustangs and Thunderbolts overwhelmed the superior Panzers…….To add, said Panzers were also handicapped by severe shortages of fuel and ammo thanks to the B-17s, B-24s Lancaster’s etc…..

Good point. The Allies really didn't have much on the ground to counter a Jagdpanther (etc). The Firefly version, perhaps...up close.

[DogOnPorch]

After the IMP upgrade they were brought up to the equivalent “C standard”, which are still play a very large part in both USN & USMC force projection……..Granted, airframe fatigue is what it is and they are certainly in need of replacement.

Yeah...the odd loop wouldn't hurt the ol' girls...lol.

[DogOnPorch]

Plus, I believe aviation history should be able to fly if at all possible. I hate seeing them on pylons. Flying condition in a museum is fine.

[Guest Derek L]

Plus, I believe aviation history should be able to fly if at all possible. I hate seeing them on pylons. Flying condition in a museum is fine.

I can personally attest when I was with Boeing IDS during the Phrog DCU that nearly 1/3rd of the airframes were barely worthy for razor blades and pop cans, let alone aviation history…….Post Persian Excursion II, the material condition of most of them coming off line after the introduction of the Osprey has left them in such a state that they will be cut up and sold for scrap………..Uncle Sam’s misguided children were very lucky to get the additional time out of them………They didn’t call it the Jesus nut for nutten

The same generally for most other rotary and fixed wing former USN/USMC aircraft…….Salt water tends to do that…..

[bush_cheney2004]

The vast majority of aircraft left in Davis-Monthan are no longer airworthy and kept as a source of spare parts for the US and allies……..Very little Phantoms left too.

Certainly far less than before, but the remaining inventory of airworthy Phantoms are refurbished as QF-4 target drones to die a fiery death, befitting a tired old legend.

Good read here: {WARNING: JINGO PORN}

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Where-Have-All-the-Phantoms-Gone.html

[Guest Derek L]

Certainly far less than before, but the remaining inventory of airworthy Phantoms are refurbished as QF-4 target drones to die a fiery death, befitting a tired old legend.

Good read here: {WARNING: JINGO PORN}

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Where-Have-All-the-Phantoms-Gone.html

Indeed, the Alpha & Bravo Falcons are leaving the on deck circle…..

[DogOnPorch]

{WARNING: JINGO PORN}

1959

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeed, the Alpha & Bravo Falcons are leaving the on deck circle…..

Heh-heh....“So now you know,” he said, grinning. “It takes four Raptors to kill an F-4.”

[DogOnPorch]

Great F-4 article, BC. Thanks. Ah...the 555th.

[bush_cheney2004]

Great F-4 article, BC. Thanks. Ah...the 555th.

Yes...it presents a good Pilot/RIO perspective for flying the beast, and it apparently was a handful.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes...it presents a good Pilot/RIO perspective for flying the beast, and it apparently was a handful.

I've read some of Dan Cherry's (lol...Don) accounts before. As well as plenty of the other honchos of the time. Crappy instrument layout seems to be the greatest complaint on the earlier ones. That and fuel use and the no gun thingy and......

Best not tell waldo.

Edited June 30, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[Guest Derek L]

Heh-heh....“So now you know,” he said, grinning. “It takes four Raptors to kill an F-4.”

I remember one of my first RIMPAC’s and Wild Weasels from the Philippines………You could see those black parallel exhaust contrails for miles....It was also Missouri’s last RIMPAC .......truly a BOOMIN performance……

[bush_cheney2004]

……You could see those black parallel exhaust contrails for miles...

"The smoking lamp is lit in all authorized spaces"

[waldo]

Best not tell waldo.

guys, guys... you seem to have forgotten - your jingo-porn thread is over...

here

:

look, really... truly...

I sympathize with your want to purposely distract from the failings of JSFail; however, why don't you move on... and post in an appropriate thread? As you've purposely done in the past, you've trashed previous F-35 threads with your derail efforts. Is this, once again, your aim/intent? Why not just say so?

[waldo]

Still a no on providing said requested quote I see.....

I guess that’s a no here too eh?

have you no shame... no self-respect... no intellectual honesty? None? None at all? It's an easy cut&paste - I have it on speed dial... here, have another, hey?

again, you've had your words, your correlation, re-quoted for you... several times now. Your same continued repeat bleat is most telling - a true testament to your trollish actions... you know, your troll actions being pointed out to you by other MLW members!

Now, about that U.S. GAO extract quote you keep running/hiding from - just respond to it! Sure you can, hey?

again, you can continue to ignore the quotes played back to you, repeatedly. Your continuing troll act was astutely pointed out for you by another MLW member... I suggested you take that to heart; instead you carry on with your clown act.

about that U.S. GAO quote you keep running/hiding from

:

As before, as always, you could end this with a simple straight-forward explanation of what you interpret the offered U.S. GAO quote extract to mean, particularly in the context of your testing puffery

... you know, that quote extract repeatedly presented to you... the one you've been repeatedly challenged to comment on... the one you won't touch with the proverbial '10 foot pole'.

[waldo]

duh! Thanks Sherlock! You were the one that mentioned army, strategies and a presumption on a disproportionate level of pending U.S. defense cuts hitting the U.S. Army over other branches of the military. And yet... you don't think... you won't think... that the single largest military expenditure (ever), the JSFail F-35 program... somehow... won't be affected by budget cuts. Why, if that's the case, why would we have such posturing from Lockheed Martin, hey?

now... if you don't know about the impending U.S. budget sequestration... and what it particularly might mean for U.S. defense spending, see

here

:

well, hey now posturing Lockheed Martin, just what do you have to say? Oh my, is LockMart really prepared to enter into the U.S. election cycle. But, but... what might sequestration mean to the JSFail F-35!!!

Lockheed threatens big layoffs amid U.S. Defense cuts:

Lockheed is diversified to more then just the F-35

thanks scoop! But really, c'mon... are you truly saying that, within that overall 'diversification', all that LockMart layoff posturing isolates any/all impact to the JSFail F-35? Even in speculation you can't bring yourself to even contemplate any... any... impact to your favoured toy? Really?

Care to give a line by line account of what will, and what won’t be cut?

what? You mean have me speak for Lockheed Martin's posturing? I thought that was your job! But, c'mon... even for you, even for your lowly standards, is that the best you've got? Here we have Lockheed Martin whining about pending U.S. defense cuts, while threatening massive layoffs... to it's entire workforce. In all that posturing, speculation and what-if, you can't even entertain the possibility, the strong likelihood, of impacts to your most revered JSFail F-35 program. Of course, as I stated, the practical extension of the U.S. defense cuts would be the respective military branches downsizing/delaying their F-35 procurement numbers... over and above all the downsizing/delaying that's occurred to-date - hence, the LockMart layoffs! And of course, you know exactly what that means to the JSFail program. I guess that's why you're comfortable in your denial, hey?