F-35 Purchase

[DogOnPorch]

How many Russian lives would they want lost? Seriously it isn't an experiment, Russians care about Russians they don't just drop nukes because they feel like it and if they wanted to drop on Canada 60 F-35s are not going to stop them from doing it. Sorry to break it to you.

Canada isn't going to be able to do sfa to Russia. You're suggesting America will sort it out for us. How Avro Arrow of you.

[DogOnPorch]

Since they miss their Soviet comrades so much, I am just trying to comfort them.

We know they haven't gone anywhere. They just had a reality check like everybody else.

[punked]

Canada isn't going to be able to do sfa to Russia. You're suggesting America will sort it out for us. How Avro Arrow of you.

I am suggesting that 60 F-35 would be meaningless to prevent the thing you suggest will happen with out them. So your reasoning is flawed and wrong.

Edited June 24, 2012 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

[/size]

e-v-a-s-i-v-e => intentionally vague or ambiguous; equivocal

When will Government sign the deal? 2015? 2016? 2017?

From the point Government signs the deal it would likely be several years for us to start receiving our initial F-35s (post 2017) and several years one we’ve received the initial delivery to stand up the first operational squadron…….

Per Lockheed:

PRODUCTION AND TESTING

At rate production in 2017, the F-35 Lightning II will be produced at a rate of approximately one aircraft per day to supply the U.S. Armed Forces and our allies with a 5th generation aircraft.

[DogOnPorch]

I am suggesting that 60 F-35 would be meaningless to prevent the thing you suggest will happen with out them. So your reasoning is flawed and wrong.

Now roll over and show me your belly.

Edited June 24, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

I am suggesting that 60 F-35 would be meaningless to prevent the thing you suggest will happen with out them. So your reasoning is flawed and wrong.

Then why have tactical aircraft at all? Leave NORAD/NATO and stop pretending to take it seriously. Surrender early...save a bundle!

Edited June 24, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

considering your, as you say, 'heck of a way to make policy', rests on a decade of JSFail F-35 failed promises, failed performance, failed results delivery, failed schedules, failed budgets, etc., ... "over budget, overdue, and over-hyped"

I’ve defined and staunchly defended “my position”….Your’s seems to shift daily……..One of No fighter force or a fighter force comprised of anything other than the F-35.………Care to widdle it down some? Getting a concise answer from you is like trying to nail Jello to the wall……

[punked]

Then why have tactical aircraft at all? Leave NORAD/NATO and stop pretending to take it seriously. Surrender early...save a bundle!

What I am saying is buying an aircraft based on a scenario that aircraft can't prevent is probably a bad idea. However buying an aircraft based on what its real role will be would be a much better way for our military to go about this.

[bush_cheney2004]

What I am saying is buying an aircraft based on a scenario that aircraft can't prevent is probably a bad idea. However buying an aircraft based on what its real role will be would be a much better way for our military to go about this.

If you don't think that the intercept role is necessary just say so, but that isn't the only reason to field a modern "multi-role" strike fighter. Don't kid yourself, it would be politically unacceptable to tolerate routine Russian overflights of Canada, even by the NDP commies.

[Guest Derek L]

What I am saying is buying an aircraft based on a scenario that aircraft can't prevent is probably a bad idea. However buying an aircraft based on what its real role will be would be a much better way for our military to go about this.

Glad we agree………Our Hornets haven’t shot down a single Russian bomber yet, but they sure have carried out interdiction missions over defended, unfriendly airspace…….All the reason to purchase the next generation of aircraft…………You never know, the NDP might even support another Libyan type mission in the next 40 years…..

[punked]

Glad we agree………Our Hornets haven’t shot down a single Russian bomber yet, but they sure have carried out interdiction missions over defended, unfriendly airspace…….All the reason to purchase the next generation of aircraft…………You never know, the NDP might even support another Libyan type mission in the next 40 years…..

This is true and this is what we should be talking about. Not unreal scenarios that will never happen or that F-35s can't handle. That is my point. If Dogs doesn't like the Russians having the ability to drop a bomb on Canada he better want more then 60 planes to cover all of Canada because these planes do not stop that no matter how much Dogs wants to close his eyes and believe really really hard.

Edited June 24, 2012 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

This is true and this is what we should be talking about. Not unreal scenarios that will never happen or that F-35s can't handle. That is my point. If Dogs doesn't like the Russians having the ability to drop a bomb on US he better want more then 60 planes to cover all of Canada because these planes do not stop that no matter how much Dogs wants to close his eyes and believe really really hard.

Though I don’t share Dog’s same level of concern, the F-35 will fulfill our NORAD commitments and will easily integrate with our other NORAD partner’s Air Force, that will have the F-35 as the mainstay of their fighter force…….All the while, enabling a future Canadian Government, regardless of political strip, to participate in another Libyan like mission, if they so choose, out to the 2050 timeframe.

[punked]

Though I don’t share Dog’s same level of concern, the F-35 will fulfill our NORAD commitments and will easily integrate with our other NORAD partner’s Air Force, that will have the F-35 as the mainstay of their fighter force…….All the while, enabling a future Canadian Government, regardless of political strip, to participate in another Libyan like mission, if they so choose, out to the 2050 timeframe.

There are other planes which will fulfill our NORAD commitments and can be integrated though aren't their? Again honest questions coming from me.

[bush_cheney2004]

There are other planes which will fulfill our NORAD commitments and can be integrated though aren't their? Again honest questions coming from me.

Yes...please pick one so the bitching can start about its high cost.

[punked]

Yes...please pick one so the bitching can start about its high cost.

I am asking questions BC serious questions which should be answered. Sorry.

[Guest Derek L]

There are other planes which will fulfill our NORAD commitments and can be integrated though aren't their? Again honest questions coming from me.

Today yes (Hornets, Falcons, Eagles) but not once the Americans start retiring their legacy fleets within the next two decades in favour of the Raptor, Lightning II (F-35) and eventually the 6th and 7th generations of fighters, be they manned or unmanned…..Post early 2030s we will be at a disadvantage integrating with USAF for NORAD and our NATO partners and other natural allies that will be operating the F-35.….(UK/Norway/Denmark/Netherlands/Spain/Italy/Turkey/Japan/South Korea/Australia/Israel/Singapore and likely Belgium, Finland and Taiwan)

[punked]

Today yes (Hornets, Falcons, Eagles) but not once the Americans start retiring their legacy fleets within the next two decades in favour of the Raptor, Lightning II (F-35) and eventually the 6th and 7th generations of fighters, be they manned or unmanned…..Post early 2030s we will be at a disadvantage integrating with USAF for NORAD and our NATO partners and other natural allies that will be operating the F-35.….(UK/Norway/Denmark/Netherlands/Spain/Italy/Turkey/Japan/South Korea/Australia/Israel/Singapore and likely Belgium, Finland and Taiwan)

I think a lot of these claims are yet to be seen.

[Guest Derek L]

I think a lot of these claims are yet to be seen.

Of what claims do you speak? None of the partner nations have pulled out, despite the “bad news” and other, non partner nations have expressed (or selected) the F-35 (Japan, South Korea and Spain) or are requesting preliminary information relating to the program to replace their own legacy fleets (Belgium, Finland, Taiwan)……..Norway has just placed their initial order, and the initial British, Dutch and Italian aircraft are being produced……

[bush_cheney2004]

I am asking questions BC serious questions which should be answered. Sorry.

So am I....it's about the money for folks like you. So make a better choice, and tell us why you support it.

[punked]

Of what claims do you speak? None of the partner nations have pulled out, despite the “bad news” and other, non partner nations have expressed (or selected) the F-35 (Japan, South Korea and Spain) or are requesting preliminary information relating to the program to replace their own legacy fleets (Belgium, Finland, Taiwan)……..Norway has just placed their initial order, and the initial British, Dutch and Italian aircraft are being produced……

Again I will wait to see on this one. Europe where most of these partners are don't have the money they thought they would so I will wait and see.

[Argus]

I am asking questions BC serious questions which should be answered. Sorry.

My understanding is that if we ordered a 4th gen fighter, and equipped it with as much as we could to try and make it as modern as possible the price would be not much lower than the F-35, and yet it would be a much less capable aircraft. I haven't seen any actual military people suggest that a 4th gen fighter would be as good as the F-35.

You might want to skim through this. It's a bit esoteric but you get the gist.

F-35 vs Super Hornet discussion

[wyly]

How many Russian lives would they want lost? Seriously it isn't an experiment, Russians care about Russians they don't just drop nukes because they feel like it and if they wanted to drop one on Canada 60 F-35s are not going to stop them from doing it. Sorry to break it to you. They have 4000 nukes 100 long range bombers not to mention their ICBM. Sorry

you're engaged with people of childlike logic, zero ability for critical thinking...buying toys for a war scenario in which these toys will be of no practical use vs opponents we have no hope of countering... Edited June 25, 2012 by wyly

[bush_cheney2004]

you're engaged with people of childlike logic, zero ability for critical thinking...buying toys for a war scenario in which these toys will be of practical use vs opponents we have no hope of countering...

Yet you have alliances with and great expectations of others to bear the burden instead...marvelous.

[waldo]

you're engaged with people of childlike logic, zero ability for critical thinking...buying toys for a war scenario in which these toys will be of practical use vs opponents we have no hope of countering...

succinct and to the point... all of these F-35 proponents are completely dissociated from the reality of, JSFail F-35 'over budget, overdue, and over-hyped'.

[waldo]

... as I, once again, ask you to step up and speak to that so-called "sweet spot" for presumed Canadian F-35 procurement. What imaginary year would you like to go with Lockheed Martin actually producing Canadian jets - 2021?... 2022?... 2023?... or what?

Several years after we sign the deal.

e-v-a-s-i-v-e => intentionally vague or ambiguous; equivocal

When will Government sign the deal? 2015? 2016? 2017?

From the point Government signs the deal it would likely be several years for us to start receiving our initial F-35s (post 2017) and several years one we’ve received the initial delivery to stand up the first operational squadron…….

Per Lockheed:

PRODUCTION AND TESTING

At rate production in 2017, the F-35 Lightning II will be produced at a rate of approximately one aircraft per day to supply the U.S. Armed Forces and our allies with a 5th generation aircraft.

bunk, absolute bunk. I'll believe the U.S. GAO over Lockheed Martin propaganda - presuming everything goes right for Lockheed Martin... and based on a decade+ of failed promises/results, who would believe/accept... everything going right for JSFail, the following is the most recent (weeks old) update from the U.S. GAO:

... when procurement cuts/delays are running at 3/4 of the original numbers touted/flaunted. In any case, in perfect timing, we have

the most recent U.S. Government Accountability Office report

, released in recent days... a few choice gems...

hey Argus, have a chew... as well, hey?:

Full rate production is now planned for 2019

, a delay of 6 years from the 2007 baseline [emphasis added]. Unit costs per aircraft have doubled since start of development in 2001. Critical dates for delivering warfighter requirements remain unsettled because of program uncertainties. While the total number of aircraft DOD plans to buy has not changed, it has for 3 straight years reduced near-term procurement quantities, deferring aircraft and costs to future years.

Since 2002, the total quantity through 2017 has been reduced by three-fourths, from 1,591 to 365. Affordability is a key challenge.

Development of critical mission systems providing core combat capabilities remains behind schedule and risky. To date, only 4 percent of the mission systems required for full capability have been verified. Deficiencies with the helmet mounted display, integral to mission systems functionality and concepts of operation, are most problematic. The autonomic logistics information system, integral technology for improving aircraft availability and lowering support costs, is not fully developed

Most of the instability in the program has been and continues to be the result of highly concurrent development, testing, and production activities.

Cost overruns on the first four annual procurement contracts total more than $1 billion and aircraft deliveries are on average more than 1 year late…

The manufacturing process is still absorbing higher than expected number of engineering changes resulting from flight testing, changes which are expected to persist at elevated levels into 2019, making it difficult to achieve efficient production rates. More design and manufacturing changes are expected as testing continues, bringing risks for more contract overruns and concurrency costs

in your most duplicitous manner, you just spoke of production turnout occurring... today. It is a fact, an absolute fact, those current planes will need to be retrofitted given the ongoing design failures and problems realized... and yet to be realized. It's called concurrency - pushing planes out when minimal testing has been done! One of the biggest failings within JSFail... the single biggest reason massive procurement delays (and outright downsizing) has occurred. Let's see your Lockheed Martin production propaganda keep up to the massive queue formed and continuing to form as we speak! You sir, are deluded!