The Hypocrisy of the anti 'Keystone' demonstrators.

[Guest Peeves]

I think the demonstrators are;

A) Ignorant of the facts.

paid shills for current suppliers.

C) don't realise that off shore suppliers undependable and are dicey politicaly.

D) Super tankers are a risk.

Where better to get oil than from a friendly neighbor?

The Keystone pipeline would be safer than many now in place. 1700 miles of pipe to supply 800,000 barrels of ethical oil from a neighbor rather than from uncertain sources.

7 billion in financing, thousands of jobs.

Look at the map pipelines of now existing pipelines.

Like one more matters.

http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/north_america_oil_gas_and_products_pipelines.html

Pipeline Safety

Pipelines are the safest method for the transportation of petroleum products when compared to other methods of transportation. Steel pipelines provide the safest, most efficient and most economical way to transport crude oil. Each year, billions of gallons of crude oil and petroleum products are safely transported on pipelines. If they do occur, pipeline leaks are small; most pipeline leaks involve less than three barrels, 80% of spills involve less than 50 barrels, and less than 0.5 percent of spills total more than 10,000 barrels.

Safety of the public and the environment is a top priority for TransCanada. Through our risk-based integrity management program - which includes ongoing maintenance and inspection, combined with investment in pipeline research and development to continually improve our materials and processes - we are focused on preventing pipeline incidents.

TransCanada monitors and controls our pipeline systems from a computerized control centre that is staffed 24 hours a day. If an incident were to occur, TransCanada is able to shutdown the pipeline and isolate the affected pipe section from service within minutes.

The Keystone Gulf Coast Expansion Pipeline Project has been designed and will be constructed and operated to the highest industry standards. Keystone will meet or exceed all requirements of the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration, an agency within the U.S. Department of Transportation that regulates the design, construction and operation of the 2.3-million-mile pipeline system in the United States.

Leak Detection

The Keystone Pipeline System is monitored 24 hours per day, 365 days per year. Pumps and valves are remotely started and secured. In the unlikely event of a spill or leak, pump stations and valves will be closed to limit spill volumes. The leak detection system uses a variety of methods to detect a leak of any size.

Keystone's Emergency Response Plan

In the event of a leak, TransCanada is responsible to clean up the oil, remediate leak impact, and to pay for damages. Keystone will initiate an Emergency Response Plan (ERP) to minimize any effects to the environment. The plan will address specific environmental features in the vicinity of the pipeline and will be based on practices that are well-understood and tested. This comprehensive plan is required to be filed with and approved by PHMSA prior to pipeline operation and will meet or exceed all federal safety standards.

Keystone Integrated Public Awareness Program will provide local emergency responders with the information and training necessary to ensure their preparedness for responding to such events. Keystone responders are trained in execution of the ERP. Keystone will utilize a combination of company personnel and contract resources in executing its response plan. These arrangements will be in place before the pipeline begins operations.

The Keystone ERP will include plans for resources including personnel and equipment to respond to a worst-case situation, an approach that calculates the largest possible spill volume and ensures resources are adequate and available to respond with company and contract personnel.

[waldo]

why the need for yet another Keystone thread? You're adding nothing new to what's already been discussed through the assortment of other Keystone related threads... in any case, to a few of your points, direct or implied:

- jobs: beyond short-term construction jobs, no real long-term impact on job creation... the short-term construction job numbers are estimated at ~2-3000 for a period of 6 months. These are TransCanada's own estimates.

- domestic usage: little of the new/additional tarsands product is targeted for U.S. domestic use... existing tarsands product is reaching U.S. midwest refineries... there is a capacity glut. One of TransCanada's own approval seeking justifications to our NEB was the financial analysis/gains realized by the KXL pipeline resulting in increased gas prices to the U.S. Midwest (as the glut "moves offshore" via the extended Keystone pipeline to the Gulf).

- ethical oil: a BS marketing game ala Ezrant and the Harper Conservatives.

- the current major import sources for the U.S. are not "undependable and politically dicey".

- supertankers: a strawman as the proposed Enbridge 'Northern Gateway' and Kinder-Morgan 'Trans Mountain' pipelines are independent of Keystone and are competitors to Trans Canada's Keystone proposal.

- Nebraska residents have every right to challenge the proposed Keystone pipeline routes given concerns over possible aquifer impacts. Equally, identified problems with the initial TransCanada influenced U.S. State Department review have raised concerns from others protesting the lack of proper/complete environmental assessment previously done.

[punked]

Just want to point out Keystone actually make gas prices go up because it opens up what is now a landlocked market to the world, so gas that could only economically be sold in North America before now can go else where driving up the price. Hope you like higher gas prices because that is what keystone will do.

[Smallc]

Just want to point out Keystone actually make gas prices go up because it opens up what is now a landlocked market to the world,

[Shady]

Your emoticon is well placed, since there is no facepalm one yet.

[punked]

Sorry just quoting Bloomberg I know our disdain for the media and your refusal to accept facts Smallc. Your transformation from an informed poster to who quoted sources and used citations to someone who laughs at media analysis and screams down facts is complete. Congrats you are a Conservative.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-01/keystone-oil-pipeline-seen-raising-gas-prices-in-midwest-energy.html

Edited April 6, 2012 by punked

[Smallc]

Sorry just quoting Bloomberg I know our disdain for the media and your refusal to accept facts Smallc.

That article doesn't say that the pipeline will clause gas prices to go up everywhere, just in the region that has enjoyed an oversupply of oil. Also, it's the southern leg of the pipeline that could cause the increase in them midwest, not the part that involves Canada.

[Bryan]

Just want to point out Keystone actually make gas prices go up because it opens up what is now a landlocked market to the world, so gas that could only economically be sold in North America before now can go else where driving up the price. Hope you like higher gas prices because that is what keystone will do.

Even if that were true, Canada is the oil supplier in this case. More markets is good for us. More markets AND higher prices? Bonus.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Bryan

[waldo]

Sorry just quoting Bloomberg I know our disdain for the media and your refusal to accept facts Smallc. Your transformation from an informed poster to who quoted sources and used citations to someone who laughs at media analysis and screams down facts is complete. Congrats you are a Conservative.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-01/keystone-oil-pipeline-seen-raising-gas-prices-in-midwest-energy.html

yes... just what I alluded to in my earlier post:

- domestic usage: little of the new/additional tarsands product is targeted for U.S. domestic use... existing tarsands product is reaching U.S. midwest refineries... there is a capacity glut. One of TransCanada's own approval seeking justifications to our NEB was the financial analysis/gains realized by the KXL pipeline resulting in increased gas prices to the U.S. Midwest (as the glut "moves offshore" via the extended Keystone pipeline to the Gulf).

I've detailed this several times in the past... even quoting directly from the TransCanada NEB submission. This isn't news, by any means - it's been raised at the level of the U.S. Congress itself.

[waldo]

Even if that were true, Canada is the oil supplier in this case. More markets is good for us. More markets AND higher prices? Bonus.

bonus? For who? For the oil companies?

in another NEB submission, it is Enbridge that has asserted, "

that Northern Gateway will bring about an increase in the price of every barrel of oil produced in Canada by $2-$3, every year, for 30 years, over and above what it would be without Northern Gateway

".

[Guest Peeves]

why the need for yet another Keystone thread? You're adding nothing new to what's already been discussed through the assortment of other Keystone related threads...

Look at the map pipelines of now existing pipelines.

Like one more matters.

http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/north_america_oil_gas_and_products_pipelines.html

Why? Because it's still in the news. Because Obama is still playing the card. Because it will remain an issue until it no longer is. Your points are on point, but I've read the arguments before, and the pro outweighs the con and Obama knows that. Want a dependable oil supplier, can't get any better than from a neighbor.

And it's still making news with Harper as well with alternative customers.

The linked article is worth a read. Excerpt.

Mr. Obama’s foot-dragging, combined with the need to crank up Iranian sanctions, has turned the situation into a farce: The United States, and the world, need reliable sources of oil. And it is hard to think of one more reliable than Canada. Yet instead, Mr. Obama offers us Saudi Arabia, a theocratic dictatorship that has been targeted by terrorists and which continues to be laced with al-qaeda supporters. In what world does it make sense for America to rely more on Saudi sheiks than Canadian oil companies?

Leftists may snigger at the “ethical oil” argument put forward by oil sands defenders. But the logic is compelling. After Canada and Mexico, the top suppliers to the United States are Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Angola and Iraq. Not one real democracy in the lot, all of them with serious political and stability issues, and none of them right next door.

Canada, on the other hand, is just across the border, is a close friend and ally of the United States, and is both ready and eager to ensure a reliable increase in supply. Certainly, we would rather sell it into the United States than have to send it West, through terrain that truly is ecologically sensitive, and on to China. But Washington’s willingness to play games with the Keystone project has only served to increase Ottawa’s awareness of the need to find other customers.

“Look, I’m a strong and firm believer in the economic importance of our relationship, the security importance, and the importance of the United States and the world,” Mr. Harper told an audience at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars.

“But we cannot take this to the point where we are creating risk and significant economic penalty to the Canadian economy ... to not diversify to Asia, when Asia is a growing part of the world, just simply makes no sense.”

http://embamex.sre.gob.mx/canada/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5160:for-obamalessons-in-ethical-oil-national-post&catid=559:jueves-5-abril-2012&Itemid=34

[jacee]

I think the demonstrators are;

A) Ignorant of the facts.

paid shills for current suppliers.

C) don't realise that off shore suppliers undependable and are dicey politicaly.

D) Super tankers are a risk.

I can assure you protesters are better informed than you are.

Where better to get oil than from a friendly neighbor?

The Keystone pipeline would be safer than many now in place. 1700 miles of pipe to supply 800,000 barrels of ethical oil from a neighbor rather than from uncertain sources.

"ethical oil". We see now who you are schilling for.

Tell me ... do they pay you out of the $40m federal TAXPAYERS' MONEY that is fraudulently being used to promote Alberta oil rather than its intended purpose of researching alternative technologies?

Is Bruce Carson your buddy?

Are you him?

What a joke!

7 billion in financing, thousands of jobs.

Not for Canadians.

Look at the map pipelines of now existing pipelines.

Like one more matters.

http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/north_america_oil_gas_and_products_pipelines.html

Gotta stop somewhere!

You did your duty. We're not buying.

Go pick up your I'm-a-schill-for-the-oilboys paycheque.

And a thank you to the taxpayers who were defrauded of that money would be nice.

Edited April 6, 2012 by jacee

[waldo]

The linked article is worth a read.

http://embamex.sre.gob.mx/canada/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5160:for-obamalessons-in-ethical-oil-national-post&catid=559:jueves-5-abril-2012&Itemid=34

BS sabre-rattling! The U.S. imports no oil from Iran... more than half of Iranian exports go to China, Japan and India. Do you expect the existing EU sanctions to be taken up by all those countries dependent on Iranian exports?

hey now! Are you fronting the KXL pipeline as a U.S. option to supply Canadian tarsands product in lieu of Iranian sanctions? Really? Really?

wait now... plans are afoot!

... contingency planning, hey?

TransCanada looks east as Gateway pipeline gets bogged down

TransCanada Corp. is proposing a major shift in the way oil moves across Canada, urging the oil patch to consider a massive $5.6-billion new pipeline system that would carry large volumes of western crude to refineries in Ontario, Quebec and beyond.

The East Coast Pipeline Project, as TransCanada has dubbed it in presentations to energy companies, could do more than supply the east with fuels made from oil sands crude. It could serve as an alternative to Northern Gateway, the controversial West Coast export pipeline project from TransCanada competitor Enbridge Inc. that has faced a wall of opposition from first nations and environmental groups.

[Smallc]

There will be many pipelines built over the next few decades.

[Moonlight Graham]

Sorry just quoting Bloomberg I know our disdain for the media and your refusal to accept facts Smallc. Your transformation from an informed poster to who quoted sources and used citations to someone who laughs at media analysis and screams down facts is complete. Congrats you are a Conservative.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-01/keystone-oil-pipeline-seen-raising-gas-prices-in-midwest-energy.html

Possible higher prices...if you live in the US midwest it says. From your article:

Keystone XL might lower the average cost of gasoline across the U.S. by up to 4 cents a gallon, Ray Perryman, a consultant hired by TransCanada to assess the economic impact of the project, said in an e-mail.

The net impact of Keystone XL on gasoline prices would be minimal, said Perryman, whose research has been cited by TransCanada to back up claims on potential job growth and market impacts from the pipeline.

Honestly who gives a crap what some "consultant" hired by an energy company says. He's just flapping lips for those who pay him, so it's meaningless biased bologna.

[TimG]

Possible higher prices...if you live in the US midwest it says.

Actually, Obama has recently crowed about how he approved the Keystone XL pipeline from Cushing to Texas. This will alleviate the market distortions created by the lack of capacity and cause prices to rise in the midwest. So this particular talking point is now moot and Obama gets the "credit" for increasing pump prices for people in the midwest. Edited April 6, 2012 by TimG

[Guest Peeves]

Possible higher prices...if you live in the US midwest it says. From your article:

Honestly who gives a crap what some "consultant" hired by an energy company says. He's just flapping lips for those who pay him, so it's meaningless biased bologna.

Yes, reading the tree huggers whining there's enough balogna for a socialist convention.

[waldo]

Possible higher prices...if you live in the US midwest it says. From your article:

from an earlier post:

per TransCanada's own commissioned report for it's Canadian NEB hearing where it sought approval for the Canadian leg of the Keystone XL pipeline... an effective consortium working to manipulate U.S. Midwest consumer gas prices - to increase them!

as pertains to the U.S. Midwest (PADD II) market, from that TransCanada Canadian NEB application: Keystone XL Pipeline Section 52 Application; Section 3.4.3: Supply and Markets

3.4.3 Crude Pricing Impact

Existing markets for Canadian heavy crude, principally PADD II, are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for Canadian heavy crude oil.

Access to the USGC via the Keystone XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in PADD II by removing this oversupply. This is expected to increase the price of heavy crude to the equivalent cost of imported crude.

Similarly, if a surplus of light synthetic crude develops in PADD II, the Keystone XL Pipeline would provide an alternate market and therefore help to mitigate a price discount.

end result

: the Keystone XL pipeline will be eliminating the glut of U.S. Midwest oil that, from an industry perspective, is keeping prices depressed in the United States.

you will have the uninformed saying the recent KXL southern leg approval will, effectively, remove the supply bottleneck in Oklahoma and bring forward the resulting (TransCanada predicted) pricing increase to the U.S. MidWest. Of course, given the current high profile on rising U.S. pump gas prices, further intensified scrutiny will be placed upon oil company actions and market results when 'turning up' the KXL southern leg pipeline extension. Let's see what oil companies and political party wants to take the 'heat' for raising U.S. domestic prices, particularly when/if the existing MidWest surplus is seen to be leaving the Gulf for Asian ports.

[waldo]

Yes, reading the tree huggers whining there's enough balogna for a socialist convention.

nice... you've hit all the buzz-words - good on ya!

[Bryan]

bonus? For who? For the oil companies?

For the Canadian economy. The higher the price of oil/gas, the better it is for all of us.

[Topaz]

Everyone is worried about the safety of the pipeline leaking and I don't know if Canada and the US have the same materials and equipment but I did find an article that says that leaks will happen. http://www.gregpalast.com/the-pig-in-the-xl-pipelineinsider-reveals-concealed-%e2%80%9cerror%e2%80%9din-pipeline-safety-equipment-that-could-blow-away-the-gop%e2%80%99s-xl-pipe-dream/#more-5675

[Shady]

Everyone is worried about the safety of the pipeline leaking

Nobody's worried about the pipeline leaking. There's already thousands of miles of pipelines across North America.

[punked]

Nobody's worried about the pipeline leaking. There's already thousands of miles of pipelines across North America.

And they spill.

[Shady]

And they spill.

Not really.

[punked]

Not really.

Cornell economist just came out like 2 weeks ago with a study which says this very pipeline we are talking about will spill someday Shady. Sorry.

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/19/keystone_pipeline_will_spill_study_predicts/singleton/