Wild Bill Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Don't count your orders until they're delivered. They're ridiculous white elephants and any governments that commit billions to them are out of their gourds. Not to mention, they're a completely asinine choice for defending the vast spaces of Canada. Too few of them, single engines (meaning we will lose more of them), limited range. Hey, want a spare Prime Minister? Cheap. Low mileage too - less than 50,000 lies told (so far). He'd fit right in with all of the right-wing, hairball looney-tunes you have down there. Reef, anybody can criticize or say 'no'. Have you got any alternative that will actually WORK? If you don't, then you leave us with nothing! That may be a valid option but at least be honest and say so. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
cybercoma Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 That was uncalled for and clearly against the rules! Another example of leftist love and tolerance, perhaps? Agree with me or go to hell? stopstaaron is suddenly an example of the entire Left? You're kidding, right? Quote
Wild Bill Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 stopstaaron is suddenly an example of the entire Left? You're kidding, right? We've had this discussion before. I still believe based on personal experience that the Left has FAR more offenders than the Right for being intolerant of views that disagree with their own. A Harper, Harris or Limbaugh is always not just someone who disagrees but someone who is at best mean spirited and at worst outright evil. I would think if you just counted the ad hominem attacks from posters to MLW and linked them to the originating posters political slant the numbers would make it obvious. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
mentalfloss Posted April 5, 2012 Author Report Posted April 5, 2012 We've had this discussion before. I still believe based on personal experience that the Left has FAR more offenders than the Right for being intolerant of views that disagree with their own. A Harper, Harris or Limbaugh is always not just someone who disagrees but someone who is at best mean spirited and at worst outright evil. I would think if you just counted the ad hominem attacks from posters to MLW and linked them to the originating posters political slant the numbers would make it obvious. I disagree entirely. Fox News, The Sun, The Daily Mail - right wing pundits are the most notorious for being stubborn and Mcarthyist. Quote
eyeball Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Fox News, The Sun, The Daily Mail... ...Wild Bill... Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Wild Bill Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 ...Wild Bill... Hey, it wasn't me who told someone to go to hell! Take a gander at the banned list sometime... Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
dre Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Well, then I guess we disagree on what sort of military is truly useful or just symbolic. That's a fair debate! Me, I'll admit to being a bit cranky about the issue. It's my Utilitarian gene that kicks in. If it doesn't really WORK then to me it's just hot air and crap! I hear ya, but we dont need JSF capability to be "usefull". Based on the analysis Iv read a UCAV would be just as usefull to our nato partners as the F-35. Furthermore bombing campaigns are NOT what makes the Canadian military usefull in the world. Bombs have only been dropped from Canadian planes twice in the last 60 years. Whats makes us usefull is our human resources! Our troops fight the REAL war on the ground, and we are one of the only countries willing to commit troops to a lot of these nato operations. Theres a whole shitload of countries that are more than happy to fly over some shithole, and drop a bunch of bombs. Thats the easy part. And the problem is this kind of mega spending will probably make us LESS usefull because when you spend the whole farm on one thing, you deprive funding to other areas. We have thousands of troops engaged RIGHT NOW, and if you want to argue from utility that money would be better spend making sure those men and women are properly equipped instead of buying a plane that we MIGHT use in 20 years. Take the US for example... they spend trillions on the most modern airforce in the world, but then send their troops into combat without proper body and vehicle armor, night vision goggles etc. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 ...Bombs have only been dropped from Canadian planes twice in the last 60 years.... Canada bombed Iraq in 1991 = 1 Canada bombed Serbia in 1999 = 2 Canada bombed Libya in 2011 = 3 ...just sayin. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
ReeferMadness Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Reef, anybody can criticize or say 'no'. Have you got any alternative that will actually WORK? If you don't, then you leave us with nothing! That may be a valid option but at least be honest and say so. Well, Bill, I've never claimed to be a military expert. But I have done procurement once or twice. And what we do is document our requirements before we choose what we want to buy. I know that might be a strange notion to all the military geniuses out there who will say things like "Napoleon never wrote a military specification in his life and see how well he did!!" Oh, and maybe since it's Canadians money being spent, it would be nice if our government was honest with us about how they're shoveling the money into the American arms industry. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 ...Oh, and maybe since it's Canadians money being spent, it would be nice if our government was honest with us about how they're shoveling the money into the American arms industry. You mean it would be OK if your government wasn't as honest about shoveling the same money into the Canadian arms industry? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
MACKER Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) You mean it would be OK if your government wasn't as honest about shoveling the same money into the Canadian arms industry? What Canadian arms industry? by america for america. I'd like a list of canadian owned arms manufacturers. Edited April 6, 2012 by MACKER Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 I'd like a list of canadian owned arms manufacturers. You need an American to give you a list of Canadian owned arms manufacturers? Really? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wild Bill Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Well, Bill, I've never claimed to be a military expert. But I have done procurement once or twice. And what we do is document our requirements before we choose what we want to buy. I know that might be a strange notion to all the military geniuses out there who will say things like "Napoleon never wrote a military specification in his life and see how well he did!!" Oh, and maybe since it's Canadians money being spent, it would be nice if our government was honest with us about how they're shoveling the money into the American arms industry. Well, I've been both a buyer and seller. I bought electronic parts for a military arm of Westinghouse. Military procurement is old-fashioned, primitive and woefully inefficient. Those are just its good points! It makes everything ever depicted in a Dilbert cartoon pure gospel. However, it is what it is! And it WON'T change! You can rant and rave all you want but its like trying to move a mountain with a mouse. It's just reality. American, Canadian, or anywhere within NATO is all the same. So you might as well just accept it and deal with the real world. The alternative is to keep slamming your head against the wall. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
ReeferMadness Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Well, I've been both a buyer and seller. I bought electronic parts for a military arm of Westinghouse. Military procurement is old-fashioned, primitive and woefully inefficient. Those are just its good points! It makes everything ever depicted in a Dilbert cartoon pure gospel. However, it is what it is! And it WON'T change! You can rant and rave all you want but its like trying to move a mountain with a mouse. It's just reality. American, Canadian, or anywhere within NATO is all the same. So you might as well just accept it and deal with the real world. The alternative is to keep slamming your head against the wall. That's it, Bill! When you're incompetent, don't try to change. Be proud of who you are and revel in it! Tell Canadians you're wasting their money and if they don't like it they can damn well go out and kill third world civilians themselves!! Hey, at least you're honest. Maybe you could give Harper and his crew a few lessons on that score. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
waldo Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Cabinet would have known true F-35 costs: Auditor-General Stephen Harper’s ministers would have known the true cost of buying new fighter jets was much higher than the numbers they were using publicly, the Auditor-General suggested Thursday.Michael Ferguson's remarks tossed cold water on Conservative attempts to blame the F-35 foul up on bureaucrats providing bad information. Quote
Wild Bill Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 That's it, Bill! When you're incompetent, don't try to change. Be proud of who you are and revel in it! Tell Canadians you're wasting their money and if they don't like it they can damn well go out and kill third world civilians themselves!! Hey, at least you're honest. Maybe you could give Harper and his crew a few lessons on that score. Just out of curiousity Reefer, are you nuts? What do you mean by " When you're incompetent, don't try to change. Be proud of who you are and revel in it! " You make it sound like I was personally responsible for the system! I was just a buyer in a small Canadian branch of a no longer big American company. What did you expect me to do? Lead a revolution? You obviously are dreaming in technicolour if you think that I would have had the slightest chance of effecting change in that system. Perhaps you've never worked yourself so you have no experience. Oh well, if you seriously want to blame me for the foibles of the entire military procurement system then I have broad shoulders. If it makes you feel any better, the fact that I was young and made my own criticisms of the way things were done was part of what eventually cost me my job! Yeah, I can see the benefits of your approach! I must be blind! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
punked Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Cabinet would have known true F-35 costs: Auditor-General Don't even try waldo I have posted this in every F-35 thread and the Conservatives around here wont even address it. Quote
waldo Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Don't even try waldo I have posted this in every F-35 thread and the Conservatives around here wont even address it. reinforcement... I kept reading the same Harper Conservative partisans refusing to accept any accountability... attempting to push this all back on DND! Clearly, the Auditor General emphatically states the Harper Conservative cabinet most certainly knew the true costs, all the time they kept refusing to release correct/complete information to Parliament and/or pushed their purposely crafted misinformation to Parliament/public. Quote
Jerry J. Fortin Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 reinforcement... I kept reading the same Harper Conservative partisans refusing to accept any accountability... attempting to push this all back on DND! Clearly, the Auditor General emphatically states the Harper Conservative cabinet most certainly knew the true costs, all the time they kept refusing to release correct/complete information to Parliament and/or pushed their purposely crafted misinformation to Parliament/public. "deliberate misrepresentations in a tabled document" When the members of the House of Commons return from yet another paid two week vacation, I expect that some member will have concluded that this majority government of the Conservatives is once again guilty of contempt. This time things are very different from their last brush with contempt before the election. This time there is nowhere to hide. Quote
eyeball Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Just out of curiousity Reefer, are you nuts? What do you mean by " When you're incompetent, don't try to change. Be proud of who you are and revel in it! " You make it sound like I was personally responsible for the system! This is a democracy Bill. Maybe next election you should leave your stupid nose at home. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
cybercoma Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 reinforcement... I kept reading the same Harper Conservative partisans refusing to accept any accountability... attempting to push this all back on DND!And the government IS the responsible for the DND. An honourable government, an honourable party would at the very least would present ministers' resignation. Clearly, the Auditor General emphatically states the Harper Conservative cabinet most certainly knew the true costs, all the time they kept refusing to release correct/complete information to Parliament and/or pushed their purposely crafted misinformation to Parliament/public.Exactly. If they knew that the $25 billion included operating costs, at the very least they were being misleading by saying that figure is wrong and using the $14 billion figure. They should have been clear why they were using the lower figure of $14 billion and why $25 billion figure was not suitable, if that's what they truly believed. Actually, what SHOULD have happened is that all of the information they had about the costs of the program should have been submitted to parliament. End of story. Instead they worked overtime to twist the numbers and keep all of the facts from our representatives in the House. Quote
stopstaaron Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Bill you still do not understand.. when you don't have the money to buy what you want you can't buy it you can't take out a ginormous loan and not pay it back either Selling CBC is NOT going to even pay for 1 jet let alone 65 You deserved my comment Quote Don't ban me bro. Oh behave, I'll behave. I'll be a good little boy.
Jack Weber Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 "deliberate misrepresentations in a tabled document" When the members of the House of Commons return from yet another paid two week vacation, I expect that some member will have concluded that this majority government of the Conservatives is once again guilty of contempt. This time things are very different from their last brush with contempt before the election. This time there is nowhere to hide. This is true... I wish Toadbrother,or maybe Bambino,could go into how would a majority government could be found in Contempt of Parliament...And better yet,how it would stick?? I suppose it would be based on the facts of the case,however,what happened last year was in a Minority situation,and the opposition had most of the seats in the committee's looking into the matter...And they had a hell of a time getting any information from the government even when they had the majority of seats on those committee's... How would parliament ask for the proper documents when the governement holds the majority of seats on the committee that would ask for those documents?? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Does anyone remember Robin Sears saying that,"The numbers are bullshit!",(On P&P)when referring to the estimates the Harper Governament was giving this time last year about these planes? 'Cause I do... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jerry J. Fortin Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 Does anyone remember Robin Sears saying that,"The numbers are bullshit!",(On P&P)when referring to the estimates the Harper Governament was giving this time last year about these planes? 'Cause I do... They are in spin mode as we speak. But they cannot run and they cannot hide from this little reality. So all that leaves is to bury it with other crap. They strangely enough get two weeks, fourteen days to spin their little hearts out. Quote
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