Your ideas of electoral reform?

[-TSS-]

I'm sure all of you who are interested in Canadian politics have read this before but I'll link it nevertheless as it is very interesting reading:

http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/reform.html

Namely, is there a widespread dissatisfaction in Canada how the electoral system works? As we know, at the moment the system works perfectly to the advantage of the Conservatives as the Liberals and the NDP are eating each other's votes in their competition which party is the main opposition-party.

The electoral system used in the UK, Canada, the US and a number of other countries works well as long as the two largest parties gain about 95% of the total vote. If there is a strong third party or even a fourth party then elections under the FPTP(first-past-the-post as the British call the system) become very capricious.

I understand that the Green Party in your country recently made some world record as to how many votes a party can get nationally and yet no representatives in the legislature.

Edited March 3, 2012 by -TSS-

[eyeball]

Namely, is there a widespread dissatisfaction in Canada how the electoral system works?

It probably goes much farther than this, I think there's reason to believe growing numbers of Canadians have lost all faith in the very idea of government altogether.

I'd be cheering in the street if an asteroid fell on Parliament myself, especially if it was in session.

[j44]

I understand that the Green Party in your country recently made some world record as to how many votes a party can get nationally and yet no representatives in the legislature.

Is this an actual fact? You cant be referring to the last election because a Green Party member was elected.

[Michael Hardner]

We've discussed this on other threads, but you have provided an article to comment on here so I'll focus on that.

The weaknesses and problems with the current system, from the article:

The winner's votes beyond that number are "wasted" while the votes for all the other candidates do not help in electing other members of their parties.

Also, recent Canadian elections have witnessed a significant fall in voter turnout, which some say indicates that structural changes are needed in order to encourage greater participation.

The idea that votes are "wasted" is a subjective evaluation. Somebody has to lose, and to consider losing votes wasted seems to dismiss the whole point of a competitive election process IMO.

The fall in voter turnout can't be clearly connected to FPTP systems. Also, it's not clear to me that this is a negative thing.

The advantages:

Majority governments are said to provide stable government and allow direct accountability to the electorate. In contrast, partners in a minority or coalition government can either point fingers at each other or each claim credit at the next election.

SMP also facilitates clear community representation.

I agree to these advantages. Our multiparty system has produced a good number of compromises, and to opt for a series of coalition and minority governments seems to me to be too great a change to embark on to address the stated disadvantages.

The last advantage stated above is very important in Canada. The Bloc Quebecois would have a harder time getting elected without FPTP for example.

[Shady]

I don't think there's widespread dissatisfaction. I think the dissatisfaction is small, and pretty much limited to a very small group of people.

[-TSS-]

Votes can be wasted so to speak. I know that in Canada the voters are much more floating, so to speak, than in the UK where the same electoral system is in use but surely even in Canada there must be strong bastions of one party always getting the seat and therefore the supporters of the minority parties not bothering to turn up at all.

That minority party may be a majority party somewhere else, even in the same city.

[dre]

You just need to look at the current result.

A government with 40% of the popular vote is about to build a bunch of prisons to fill with small time marijuana offenders.... something that 60-70% of people dont even think should be illegal. People in any country where freedom was valued would take to the streets, but not cowardly chickenshit Canadians.

Our problems are gonna be real tough to fix through any kind of likely electoral reform. Stupid voters, and ideological government obsessed with changing stuff instead of just competent administration.

[Shady]

You just need to look at the current result.

A government with 40% of the popular vote is about to build a bunch of prisons to fill with small time marijuana offenders

That just isn't true. You're mischaracterizing it on purpose, with ridiculous hyperbole.

[eyeball]

The fall in voter turnout can't be clearly connected to FPTP systems. Also, it's not clear to me that this is a negative thing.

It's probably most strongly connected to the sense that political parties are little better than gangs of liars and thieves.

[j44]

A government with 40% of the popular vote is about to build a bunch of prisons to fill with small time marijuana offenders.... something that 60-70% of people dont even think should be illegal. People in any country where freedom was valued would take to the streets, but not cowardly chickenshit Canadians.

Nonsensical statement award.

[dre]

That just isn't true. You're mischaracterizing it on purpose, with ridiculous hyperbole.

No its exactly true. The current government is mandating prison sentenses for small time marijuana crimes. Its not hyperbole at all.

Canadas system is barely functional. In the last decade we have had nothing but gigantic money wasting scandals, billions wasted on pet programs the next government shuts down, and terrible legislation such as c10 and c30.

Luckily Canada is the easiest country to run on the entire planet...

[dre]

Nonsensical statement award.

Its not a non-sensical statement at all.

[j44]

Canadas system is barely functional. In the last decade we have had nothing but gigantic money wasting scandals, billions wasted on pet programs the next government shuts down, and terrible legislation such as c10 and c30.

Luckily Canada is the easiest country to run on the entire planet...

Dont these two statement contradict each other?

[-TSS-]

The usual excuse for the FPTP-system is that it provides a strong majority-governments. However, you had three consecutive elections with the largest party getting less than half of the seats.

FPTP-system would be fair if there was a run-off in constituencies, or ridings as you call them, where no one candidate receives more than 50% of the votes. Otherwise it becomes just plain lottery.

Edited March 3, 2012 by -TSS-

[capricorn]

I don't think there's widespread dissatisfaction. I think the dissatisfaction is small, and pretty much limited to a very small group of people.

There will always be a segment of the population that simply don't vote. In spite of alleged voter suppression in 2011, the number of voters actually increased, by 900,000 IIRC.

[eyeball]

You just need to look at the current result.

A government with 40% of the popular vote is about to build a bunch of prisons to fill with small time marijuana offenders.... something that 60-70% of people dont even think should be illegal. People in any country where freedom was valued would take to the streets, but not cowardly chickenshit Canadians.

Our problems are gonna be real tough to fix through any kind of likely electoral reform. Stupid voters, and ideological government obsessed with changing stuff instead of just competent administration.

You gotta love the argument that the tiniest slices of the pizza in a PR government would have too much clout.

Like the 12.5% of social conservatives currently trying to morally engineer their ideal society?

[dre]

Dont these two statement contradict each other?

No. They dont. From an economic standpoint Canada has really strong fundamentals. We live next door to the largest consumer market on the planet, and we are sitting on a massive treasure trove of valuable natural resources. No matter who lived hear and what kind of government they had, they would be pretty successful. So things are pretty good here and a lot of people think its because of our political system or our good governments.

Edited March 3, 2012 by dre

[capricorn]

Luckily Canada is the easiest country to run on the entire planet...

"To be Prime Minister of Canada, you need the hide of a rhinoceros, the morals of St. Francis, the patience of Job, the wisdom of Solomon, the strength of Hercules, the leadership of Napoleon, the magnetism of a Beatle and the subtlety of Machiavelli." -- Lester Pearson, 1964

---

Given the dimensions of the task, it is not surprising that many leaders have found Canada to be a difficult country to govern. However, as the political commentator Richard Gwyn noted, perhaps the real challenge for the prime minister is not so much that Canada is difficult to govern, but rather that "it is almost an impossible country to lead."

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/2/4/h4-2200-e.html

[eyeball]

No. They dont. From an economic standpoint Canada has really strong fundamentals. We live next door to the largest consumer market on the planet, and we are sitting on a massive treasure trove of valuable natural resources. No matter who lived hear and what kind of government they had, they would be pretty successful. So things are pretty good here and a lot of people think its because of our political system or our good governments.

Not this commercial fisherman. Mind you, the billionaires who influence the governments that control access to the trove are probably feeling pretty smug.

[Shady]

No its exactly true. The current government is mandating prison sentenses for small time marijuana crimes.

What type of prison sentences and what constitutes a small time marijunana crime? That's completely subjective.

[-TSS-]

We are straying off-topic here but I must say that didn't Canada use to be the best country in the world according to the UN HDI-index? Only recently Norway has overtaken Canada in that field.

As for the topic, is there any agreement among those people who dislike the present electoral system as to what should replace it? Of course there isn't! That's why things never change.

[dre]

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/2/4/h4-2200-e.html

Name a single country on earth thats easier to run than Canada?

Countries in europe maybe? Not likely... europe has huge structural economic problems and nowhere near the wealth in natural resources we have in Canada. South America? Africa?

[Battletoads]

It probably goes much farther than this, I think there's reason to believe growing numbers of Canadians have lost all faith in the very idea of government altogether.

I'd be cheering in the street if an asteroid fell on Parliament myself, especially if it was in session.

Hopefully the shock wave takes out the senate to.

Runoff elections would be the easiest way to solve the problem.

[dre]

We are straying off-topic here but I must say that didn't Canada use to be the best country in the world according to the UN HDI-index? Only recently Norway has overtaken Canada in that field.

As for the topic, is there any agreement among those people who dislike the present electoral system as to what should replace it? Of course there isn't! That's why things never change.

Well its a hard problem to fix. Id like to have a lot more parties that were a lot less powerfull, and no more majority governments, but we are trending towards a two party ideological monopoly instead. Im not sure thats really a problem with our "electoral" system per say, and other countries have similar problems.

I think systems of government get tired the older they get. The real problem is that the western social democracy has been mastered by the same special interests that ran stuff before we had this system... it took them a long time to figure it out but they eventually did. Im not even sure thats fixable.

Edited March 3, 2012 by dre

[j44]

Its not a non-sensical statement at all.

Oh, OK.

No. They dont. From an economic standpoint Canada has really strong fundamentals. We live next door to the largest consumer market on the planet, and we are sitting on a massive treasure trove of valuable natural resources. No matter who lived hear and what kind of government they had, they would be pretty successful. So things are pretty good here and a lot of people think its because of our political system or our good governments.

Canada is doing well now but it wasn't always and it won't always be like that. And I didn't say things aren't good here. But you are oversimplifying to an incredible degree.

We are straying off-topic here but I must say that didn't Canada use to be the best country in the world according to the UN HDI-index? Only recently Norway has overtaken Canada in that field.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it was easy to get it to that point or to keep it there.