So much for that Education Premiere Moniker

[Boges]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-set-to-get-tough-with-teachers/article2354828/

Faced with a gaping deficit, the historically education-friendly Ontario Liberals are playing hardball with teachers, calling for salary freezes and cutting retirement payouts of unused sick days, according to documents released by the unions.

The Elementary Teachers' Federation of Ontario, in a scathing letter to its members, called the province’s initial offer “offensive” and said it will not participate in two days of talks with the province that were scheduled for early next week.

Meanwhile, the union for public secondary school teachers held a meeting Wednesday evening to discuss the government’s offer, which it denounced as “unacceptable” and “an unprecedented attack on members’ rights.”

The offer that has teachers’ unions up in arms includes freezing salaries until August, 2014, according to a copy of the government’s “parameters” obtained by The Globe and Mail.

Retirement payouts of unused sick days would end. Instead, each teacher can take six sick days per year at full salary and up to 24 weeks at two-thirds salary. Sick days would no longer be allowed to be carried forward.

The government does not want to increase its level of contribution to pension plans, ETFO president Sam Hammond wrote.

Those don't seem like unreasonable demands.

When I was in High School we had two weeks off in October due to a teachers strike. I wonder what the teachers will do if McDalton really has grown a backbone against the teachers.

[Smallc]

Anyone who thinks kindergarten is daycare, shouldn't really be commenting on the subject.

[PIK]

But I thought dalton said ,that since he gave everything they wanted ,they will now do what he wants .

[MiddleClassCentrist]

The thing that pisses me off the most about this whole education thing,

Is that the biggest waste of money goes toward running two separate publicly funded boards.

We need to be addressing the fact that the Catholic School system is causing a huge, unnecessary drain of public tax dollars.

It's the elephant in the room that needs to be addressed but, no one is willing to address it.

[olpfan1]

It's the elephant in the room that needs to be addressed but, no one is willing to address it.

I agree..but I am sure if he tries that the NDP and PC parties will try to bring him down.. although many people would agree with him ..if he campaigns on that it would be interesting to see if he would win..I think he would

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Teacher's I know reacted poorly for one reason:

This plan wasn't presented as a list of negotiable demands. It was presented as "This is how it is, take it or leave it" They were expecting austerity to come to some degree, especially after 2 rounds of pain free negotiations (courtesy of Dalton to get re-elected). But, being given the list of parameters...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-set-to-get-tough-with-teachers/article2354828/

Those don't seem like unreasonable demands.

Except that all teachers should share the burden equally... Just roll the wages back a few years and let the younger teachers progress up the grid. They still have student debt to take care and are trying to start families. Maybe they should focus the grid... right now it starts at 50k and goes to 95... Maybe a more moderate gain would save money in the long run with a lower cap eg. 60k-80k (just tossing the idea out)

The number of sick days are low. 6 days? Teacher's work in one of the most germ ridden environments of snotty nosed kids who weren't taught how to cover their mouths when they cough. They have 20 now... how about we just cut it down to 10.

I've read elsewhere that this plan is being put in place to prevent having to lay off a large number of teachers. If that is true, keeping people working is more important than wage increases. If I was a young teacher who wanted to teach, I'd choose lower pay over no job for sure.

Edited March 1, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I agree..but I am sure if he tries that the NDP and PC parties will try to bring him down.. although many people would agree with him ..if he campaigns on that it would be interesting to see if he would win..I think he would

Absolutely.

We need to put all of the schools in one system, coordinate efforts and organization.

If two schools are across the street, have one specialize in technical training, the other specialize in academic. It would improve our education system more than anyone realizes and at the same time it would be saving money.

[Boges]

The thing that pisses me off the most about this whole education thing,

Is that the biggest waste of money goes toward running two separate publicly funded boards.

We need to be addressing the fact that the Catholic School system is causing a huge, unnecessary drain of public tax dollars.

It's the elephant in the room that needs to be addressed but, no one is willing to address it.

John Tory did, just not the way you wanted it addressed.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

John Tory did, just not the way you wanted it addressed.

Actually, John Tory's plan should have been implemented.

Costs would have skyrocketed with dozens or hundreds of more boards forming and everyone realized that it was a bad idea.

Then we'd be back to a single school board.

Edited March 1, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Guest Peeves]

Anyone who thinks kindergarten is daycare, shouldn't really be commenting on the subject.

4 year olds in school get day care, not an education.

[Guest Peeves]

Teacher's I know reacted poorly for one reason:

This plan wasn't presented as a list of negotiable demands. It was presented as "This is how it is, take it or leave it" They were expecting austerity to come to some degree, especially after 2 rounds of pain free negotiations (courtesy of Dalton to get re-elected). But, being given the list of parameters...

Except that all teachers should share the burden equally... Just roll the wages back a few years and let the younger teachers progress up the grid. They still have student debt to take care and are trying to start families. Maybe they should focus the grid... right now it starts at 50k and goes to 95... Maybe a more moderate gain would save money in the long run with a lower cap eg. 60k-80k (just tossing the idea out)

The number of sick days are low. 6 days? Teacher's work in one of the most germ ridden environments of snotty nosed kids who weren't taught how to cover their mouths when they cough. They have 20 now... how about we just cut it down to 10.

I've read elsewhere that this plan is being put in place to prevent having to lay off a large number of teachers. If that is true, keeping people working is more important than wage increases. If I was a young teacher who wanted to teach, I'd choose lower pay over no job for sure.

I believe it's 20 sick days/year that are accumulated till retirement amounting to an additional $45,000 on retirement. Give them 6 days paid if off. Over that no pay or part pay.

AND. Stop retired teachers from taking part time jobs as teachers which takes a job away from another teacher.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I believe it's 20 sick days/year that are accumulated till retirement amounting to an additional $45,000 on retirement. Give them 6 days paid if off. Over that no pay or part pay.

I don't think that teachers care about the gratuity, I have spoken to really cares about the retirement gratuity.

It's not something they pay into.

Their pension on the other hand... 12% of their pay goes into that so they will likely fight for it.

[Smallc]

4 year olds in school get day care, not an education.

You're misinformed. Studies show that you're wrong, and so does my experience.

[Guest Peeves]

You're misinformed. Studies show that you're wrong, and so does my experience.

I'm right studies are fudged, and my experience support my position. Unless a teacher has specialized EXTRA training in the handling of a 4 year old,a trained child care worker is superior in dealings with 4 year olds.

Of course those with a vested interest will take issue with that.

[Smallc]

I don't have a vested interest, but I do know you're wrong.

BTW, in order to go to kindergarten, you have to be 5 by Dec 31.

[Guest Peeves]

I don't have a vested interest, but I do know you're wrong.

BTW, in order to go to kindergarten, you have to be 5 by Dec 31.

Ontario is starting at 4.

[Guest Peeves]

I don't have a vested interest, but I do know you're wrong.

BTW, in order to go to kindergarten, you have to be 5 by Dec 31.

n 2010, child care moved to the Ministry of Education and is currently part of an Early Years Division with Kindergarten. Ontario has universal kindergarten for four-year-olds called Junior Kindergarten, and Senior Kindergarten for five-year-olds.

BTW it costs over a billion for teachers most often with no specialized training to baby sit 4 year olds. Teachers love it because at their wage they get an assistant that is trained in child care...nice huh.

[Boges]

All-Day Kindergarten can easily be done by an ECE worker. Having Unionized teachers do it was a favour to the Union.

BTW I just read that if teacher bank all their alloted sick days they can receive up to a 46,000 payout at retirement above and beyond their incredible pension.

That's like a severance check for retiring.

That is insane!!!!

[Smallc]

Ontario is starting at 4.

We do that here, too, but we don't call it kindergarten.

[Guest Peeves]

We do that here, too, but we don't call it kindergarten.

Call it as it is, day care.

[Guest Peeves]

All-Day Kindergarten can easily be done by an ECE worker. Having Unionized teachers do it was a favour to the Union.

BTW I just read that if teacher bank all their alloted sick days they can receive up to a 46,000 payout at retirement above and beyond their incredible pension.

That's like a severance check for retiring.

That is insane!!!!

What is more insane, if they bank the 200 'sick' days accumulated over the life of their employment ...years... the payout for the banked days is at the wage rate at which they retire, not the rate in place when the days were banked. I love governments that have given these sweetheart deals for votes just because "WE" can be taxed to pay for the perks.

[Smallc]

Call it as it is, day care.

That's not what it is. I have worked in both a school and an early childcare centre. They are very different, though both have a very strong educational component.

[Evening Star]

In Ontario, junior kindergarten begins for children in the year in which they turn 4, Smallc.

Edit: Sorry, I see the information has already been provided.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Evening Star

[Smallc]

In Ontario, junior kindergarten begins for children in the year in which they turn 4, Smallc.

Interesting. Here, we call that nursery. Still, it isn't the same as daycare.

[Argus]

Those don't seem like unreasonable demands.

They seem pretty unreasonable to me, and I'm hardly one who's noted for his sympathy for overpaid teachers.

First, you don't just change the rules of the game halfway through a career, at least not without major compensation.

Teachers nearing retirement would have calculated that extra money into what they're going to get. Now suddenly you sweep it away. How would you feel if you had $30,000 you could cash out, and suddenly the government of smiling Dalton McGuinty says "We changed our minds. You don't get it. WE do!"

Don't get me wrong. I don't think you should be able to cash out sick leave. But you start that sort of thing with new hires, not with those who have already been working at it for decades.

Second. You don't slash sick leave from 20 days, which is overly generous in my opinion, to 6 days right off the bat. Not to mention not allowing them to accumulate leave. Accumulated leave is what good employees have. I have quite a bit. However, I know a lot of people who have none because they take every single sick day they are entitled to, whether they're healthy or not. When I get older, and am less healthy, I might need to use that sick leave much more than I have been in the past. I would not look kindly on it being taken away.

The pay freeze is doable. The sick leave is going to lead to a long strike if it's not phased in intelligently.