bush_cheney2004 Posted March 4, 2012 Report Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) See "chic elite" comment at time 0:46: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc3p-gPPhA8&feature=related Edited March 4, 2012 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wild Bill Posted March 4, 2012 Report Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) I dunno, I think Wild Bill provides a valid perspective and at least he doesnt run away from his own arguments. Everyone uses a combination of morality, emotion, and reason to forumlate an opinion on things, and I can see why reasonable people would look at some of the crazy stuff done by corrections Canada as an argument to write a final chapter on some of these super dangerous criminals. Bill wouldnt call me an academic elistist if he knew me better. I didn't think I had called anyone here specifically an "academic elitist", Dre. Certainly I would not have called you one. There are a few others, however... However, I do believe that academic elitism is growing in our society. At the risk of thread drift, I have been noticing for over 30 years a disturbing trend. There is a belief that formal education is the only way to learn anything, along with the converse notion that without a formal education and a certificate to prove it one can not possibly know how to do something or know anything in depth about it. Along with this is the even sillier notion that a university education is some kind of blanket endorsement of a superior knowledge about EVERYTHING! In effect, having any kind of a degree makes your opinion more valid than that of anyone without a degree, no matter what the subject! This is a very strange set of beliefs for someone as old as I am, who grew up when times were different. It was very common for people to have hobbies where they delved deeply into subjects, whether it be carpentry, astronomy, archeological collecting or whatever. Amateurs often became respected authorities on some subjects. Even stranger, so much of this has vanished! There was a time when any variety store magazine rack would feature dozens of do-it-yourself issues, featuring articles on how to make stuff of surprising complexity. Those magazines are long gone! Very few remain, because despite the increase in our population the demand is so low. You have to go to a large bookstore chain like Chapters or Indigo to find any such magazines and if you actually peruse those few available, you find that true do-it-yourself projects have disappeared! What remains are really reviews of finished or nearly finished projects you can purchase. Have you checked out a model store lately? Did you build any models of airplanes or ships when you were young? I remember kits of Spitfires that had many tiny pieces. I spent much time reading and re-reading the instructions to get the model build just right. I saw an airplane kit a year or so ago. I swear, it didn't need glue! Model glue is much harder to source today, since the advent of "glue sniffing". The kit I saw basically had two halves that snapped together! Afterwards you stuck on a few decals and that was the entire process. For the self-education of today's kids we give them "Models for Dummies". The degree of specialization amongst the "educated" of today also distresses me. There is less and less general knowledge of what my generation considered a normal baseline. My own lifetime passion has been electronics and in particular radio transmission and reception. I built my first radio receiver when I was 11 and have been a ham radio operator since the early 70's, building some of my own equipment, testing various homemade antennae and talking with other hams all over the world. I was at a party and had occasion to talk with a young civil engineer, freshly graduated. I've no doubt he was a qualified civil engineer but I quickly discovered that he did not even possess what I would have considered to be a layman's knowledge of electricity! Not only had his schooling never taught him something so basic as how an incandescent light bulb worked but he had never picked it up on his own as he grew up. No matter how many times I run into this I can't help but wonder if this is a major reason why Canada seems to be losing its competitive edge against countries like China. So yes, I admit to a bias against those formally educated today! Too often I find them elitist in their attitudes, being contemptuous of anyone without a degree and frankly, arrogant in believing that they know more than most folks on even those subjects outside of their own specialization. But that's just me! The world is what it is and an old guy like me is not going to change it. That being said, it doesn't preclude my being right in what I observe. Edited March 4, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
waldo Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 You mean everyone else is both for and against the death penalty at the same time too? that same magic is woven through many threads... a dizzying affair for the uninitiated! Quote
eyeball Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Are you so caught up in your ideology that you can't comprehend that someone can actually see both sides? How are you so sure there aren't even more? While my personal decision is against the death penalty, I can understand the other point of view and see that it has merit also. I repeat. I don't see this as a black and white issue, and the arguments that some of you are making are filled with holes - which I am pointing out. It's not your way or the highway regarding the potential loss of innocent lives. I'm simply pointing that out.Yes, the death penalty does come with the risk of convicting an innocent person, but sparing the lives of convicted murderers does put innocent people at risk, too - and I can't believe that you can't see that. Seriously. I can't believe it. I can believe it but it doesn't have any bearing on my position. I never had a dog in the fight you're having with these other fine folks. You and I were off on a different tangent. I was just pointing out that here you are again seemingly on both sides of the debate but almost exclusively defending arguments for it as if it were the most important issue in the world to you. So getting back to the bone you and I were picking over; you really think it would be that hard for a victim's survivors to push the button that injects the drug or sends high voltage electricity through a murderer's body? After the means of execution were set up anyone could do it. Edited March 5, 2012 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) However, I do believe that academic elitism is growing in our society. At the risk of thread drift, I have been noticing for over 30 years a disturbing trend. There is a belief that formal education is the only way to learn anything, along with the converse notion that without a formal education and a certificate to prove it one can not possibly know how to do something or know anything in depth about it. Thats true, but I think thats partly due to the commoditisation of labor. Labor was respected 30 years ago and wages were increasing. But theres a really hatred in society today of workers and tradesmen. Laborers and tradesmen are going to move from the middle class to the bottom class over the next few decades, and having a university education will become more and more important. Ill strongly discourage my kids from taking the path that I did. Even stranger, so much of this has vanished! There was a time when any variety store magazine rack would feature dozens of do-it-yourself issues, featuring articles on how to make stuff of surprising complexity. Those magazines are long gone! Very few remain, because despite the increase in our population the demand is so low. You have to go to a large bookstore chain like Chapters or Indigo to find any such magazines and if you actually peruse those few available, you find that true do-it-yourself projects have disappeared! What remains are really reviews of finished or nearly finished projects you can purchase. I take a bit of issue here because Im a big DIY enthusiast. And Iv never found it easier to get information on a DIY project than it is today using the internet. Theres zillions of step by step tutorials and videos that can help a DIYer do projects that would have required a lot of engineering and special skills a few decades ago. Im working through that solar collector project as I said before, I was able to ask a guy who had already done the same project for a bunch of info and advice. Last year I wired my own home with absolutely no experience right from meter base and panel on in, with only help from google and my local electrical inspector. Last weekend I swapped out the LCD panel and digitizer in my smashed iphone with a video tutorial on youtube. I feel like I can do pretty much anything with the web close by. I recently installed Torque on my android tablet ($5 ODB2 software), and bought a blue tooth ODB2 adapter for 15 dollars. Pretty neat little wireless setup that gives you a nice little dashboard of all your vehicles error codes and parameters. I found out about this dirt cheap odb2 solution on the internet. After 5 minutes of plugging it in, I knew that the reason my deisel truck was running like dogshit at idle was because my #5 injector was hosed. I replaced it using a tutorial I found online. None of that means your perspective isnt valid... Im just pointing out that the information for hobbiests is still there its just in a different place now. My biggest worry is actually that private companies and the government will get together and make hobbies illegal. For example, I wired my house under a homeowner electrical permit... I also designed and built it. But I already hear talk about them doing away with these permits. The biggest threat to people that do major DIY projects is permitting and regulation, and that the government and business are a bit too cozy. The degree of specialization amongst the "educated" of today also distresses me. There is less and less general knowledge of what my generation considered a normal baseline. My own lifetime passion has been electronics and in particular radio transmission and reception. I built my first radio receiver when I was 11 and have been a ham radio operator since the early 70's, building some of my own equipment, testing various homemade antennae and talking with other hams all over the world. Thats really cool. I have a buddy thats a hardcore ham nut. Hes spent thousands of dollars on his gear though and his computer desk looks like the flight deck of a 747. Dont think he built any of it. I was at a party and had occasion to talk with a young civil engineer, freshly graduated. I've no doubt he was a qualified civil engineer but I quickly discovered that he did not even possess what I would have considered to be a layman's knowledge of electricity! I run into this all the time hiring software developers. I weigh experience way more than education, and its amazing how many people get a computer science degree, but dont have any basic common sense or problem solving skills at all. Changing gears... Wanted to try out an analogy on you When youve been arguing with people about green energy projects, youve basically taken the position that "sure, it would be great if we could produce as much clean energy as we could ever need, but the reality is today it cant work". In this case your opponent might be arguing a moral position that clean energy is just "the right thing to do", regardless of any problems with the real implementation of it. I sorta feel the same way talking to you in this death penalty thread. Does that make sense? The tables seem sorta turned here, and you seem to be arguing from the standpoint of morality and what is "right", and not placing much weight in my arguments regarding the real problems with the cost, effectiveness, and implementation of this policy, and the fact that pretty much everyone earth has tried it and decided as a public policy it doesnt work very well. Edited March 5, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 Laborers and tradesmen are going to move from the middle class to the bottom class over the next few decades I'll be very surprised if that happens. If they have an in demand skill, it's more valuable than the most intensive of academic educations. Quote
dre Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 I'll be very surprised if that happens. If they have an in demand skill, it's more valuable than the most intensive of academic educations. You must be suprised already then. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) You must be suprised already then. No, not really. Tradespeople, for the most part, aren't starving to death. 50K per year is the entry point for many of these positions (electricians, plumbers, certain types of mechanics, carpenters, OHS [non university education level], etc,; pipe fitters, welders, HVAC, equipment operators, and drillers make more starting out). The average salary in Canada is less than that. Five years of university education usually doesn't buy you that, at least not in the beginning. IMO, for most people, university as a means of increasing earning power is often a waste of time. The trades pay very well. Edited March 5, 2012 by Smallc Quote
dre Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) No, not really. Tradespeople, for the most part, aren't starving to death. 50K per year is the entry point for many of these positions (electricians, plumbers, certain types of mechanics, OHS [non university education level], etc,; pipe fitters, welders, HVAC, and drillers make more starting out). The average salary in Canada is less than that. Five years of university education usually doesn't buy you that, at least not in the beginning. IMO, for most people, university as a means of increasing earning power is often a waste of time. The trades pay very well. Well I never said they would starve to death. But their inflation adjusted wages which have been more or less stagnant for 30 years are already falling, and I assume they will continue to fall. Theres millions of more people in the world that can do all these jobs, and many of them are willing to work for peanuts by our standards. The globalisation of the labor pool is going to bring all these wages down. And as I explained in another thread we participated in together recently, theres going to be less demand for all these services once Canadians decide its time to stop using debt to finance consumption, and start to rebuild their non-existance savings. Especially when they see their home equity start to evaporate, and the rates on all these home equity lines of credits start to go up. EDIT: On second thought I think we are now derailing this thread even more. Weve been over this a few times already, and youre a bull on our economic future and Im a bear. I respect your opinion, we just gotta agree to disagree, until reality proves either of us right. Loser buys the beers Edited March 5, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 Well I never said they would starve to death. But their inflation adjusted wages which have been more or less stagnant for 30 years are already falling, and I assume they will continue to fall. Maybe for all trades combined, but certainly not for those I listed. Theres millions of more people in the world that can do all these jobs, and many of them are willing to work for peanuts by our standards. And they can also be MBAs and scientists too. Hell, they can even be philosophers if they want to. They can't do it here, unless they're here, and in that way, trades are actually more secure than MBAs, scientists, and philosophers, work that can be done anywhere. The globalisation of the labor pool is going to bring all these wages down. Maybe, maybe not. There is only so much globalization that can go on here. And as I explained in another thread we participated in together recently, theres going to be less demand for all these services once Canadians decide its time to stop using debt to finance consumption, and start to rebuild their non-existance savings. Especially when they see their home equity start to evaporate, and the rates on all these home equity lines of credits start to go up. Assuming you're right, and that does happen, I promise, it will only be temporary. Quote
Smallc Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 EDIT: On second thought I think we are now derailing this thread even more. Weve been over this a few times already, and youre a bull on our economic future and Im a bear. I respect your opinion, we just gotta agree to disagree, until reality proves either of us right. Loser buys the beers I don't like this thread anyway I see where you're coming from on this issue, I just disagree. I'm an eternal optimist. I don't drink though, so that could cause a problem. Quote
dre Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 I don't like this thread anyway I see where you're coming from on this issue, I just disagree. I'm an eternal optimist. I don't drink though, so that could cause a problem. If I was an eternal optimist I wouldnt drink either! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
TheNewTeddy Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 I support the Death Penalty, but only for crimes which are terrible, and even then, only those on the LOW end of that scale. On the high end of terrible, I think people should get life in prison in solitary confinement without ever being let out of their cell. Quote Feel free to contact me outside the forums. Add "TheNewTeddy" to Twitter, Facebook, or Hotmail to reach me!
Wild Bill Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) I take a bit of issue here because Im a big DIY enthusiast. And Iv never found it easier to get information on a DIY project than it is today using the internet. Theres zillions of step by step tutorials and videos that can help a DIYer do projects that would have required a lot of engineering and special skills a few decades ago. My good doctor, as I said before you have warmed my soul that all is not lost! It's just that I believe you represent a much smaller percentage of the population today than the way it was before. I agree with you wholeheartedly however that the Internet makes gives that smaller percentage a far more powerful too than anything formerly available! This is sort of a parallel with the Ebay phenomenon. Before EBay, people wanting to sell yard sale type items were limited to a market of their own neighbourhood. EBay offered a global yard sale, cheap! When the Internet first started really rolling, I vividly recall two examples of this sort of thing that told me the way things were going. The first was a junkyard dealer for motorcycles in northern Ontario. His was the sort of place that did most of its business local but was an underground secret among enthusiasts all over the province. If you needed a part for a 1947 Indian you would give him a call and if he had it you would make a "pilgramage", usually making it a day trip with some buddies of similar interest. This guy recognized right away the potential of the Net and set up a webpage. Almost overnight he was doing a roaring "mail order" style business! The other was with a small business here in my home town that was just two guys above a music store, trying to make a living with the repair of studio equipment and selling the odd vacuum tube to locals. Vacuum tubes are still the mainstay for the music market. As I like to say, virtually all professional and would-be professional guitarists will not use a solid state amp unless you put a gun to their head, for reasons I could explain in a separate thread. This was the dawn of Net online shopping. There were no cheap software packages to set you up with a "shopping cart" system. These guys went out on a limb, mortgaged their souls and spent thousands to buy a custom package and get set up. The first night they went online they went home in a state of anxiety. What if their investment took too long to pay off? When they returned in the morning they had over 50 orders,from all over North America! Since then in the last 10 years they have had to move at least 4 times to larger facilities. They had a niche market product and were given a venue to reach a global market. Anyhow, I think I will start a new thread for this. This one seems about played out anyway. No one is going to change anyone else's mind, it seems. Or that of the people at large! Edited March 5, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Guest Manny Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 ...but let me guess, it is very acceptable to consider requests from the victim that perps not be executed. That's right, because "Thou shalt not kill." Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 That's right, because "Thou shalt not kill." A school friend of mine went on to become a priest in the Orthodox Church. He received a great deal of schooling about the various Bibles, actually including the original Greek scrolls. He told me of a couple of mistranslations in today's Bibles from those ancient Greek words. One was "Adam" which was apparently not a proper name at all but a plural word meaning "mankind". Obviously this puts a very different slant on the story of Genesis. Another was your quote of the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill." According to my friend and his Church, which historically is the first Christian Church (if you accept that the Roman Catholic Church split off from them over 1100 years ago. The Catholics of course maintain that the other Patriarchs of the time split from THEM!), the word does NOT mean "kill" but rather "murder". Again, quite a significant difference. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Guest American Woman Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) How are you so sure there aren't even more? The both sides I'm referring to are "supporting the death penalty/not supporting the death penalty." Just to clarify for you. And again, I think both sides have merit. I can believe it but it doesn't have any bearing on my position. That's fine. At least you can see it rather than pretending it doesn't exist- and admit it. I can't understand how it wouldn't have any bearing on your position, though; how you can just dismiss it. I don't understand how the potential of loss of life by previously convicted murderers wouldn't have any bearing while the potential of loss of life by a wrongful murder conviction would. In both instances, there is potential for the loss of innocent lives - and it has happened in both instances. I never had a dog in the fight you're having with these other fine folks. Yeah, real "fine." Folks so fine that they d go all ape sh*t over the notion of one innocent person being executed as they minimize the "handful" of people who have been murdered by previously convicted murderers - or outright dismiss it. You and I were off on a different tangent. I was just pointing out that here you are again seemingly on both sides of the debate but almost exclusively defending arguments for it as if it were the most important issue in the world to you. What would give you the impression that "it's the most important thing in the world to me??" Because I'm discussing it in this thread, same as everyone else?? What about the other threads I'm in - you think the metrication of Canada is the most important thing in the world to me, too? I've clearly stated my position as being against the death penalty, but the reasons given by some are full of holes and full of crap. Just pointing that out, as the potential for loss of innocent lives exists whether one is for or against it. Your notion that those who support it should bear the burden of an innocent death is bull - unless you agree that those who don't support it should bear the burden of convicted murderers killing again. It's that type of thinking that I am objecting to. So many who oppose it have this 'more moral than thou' attitude - as their position also leaves the potential for the loss of innocent lives. Yet they go one step further and deny - or minimize - that reality; and the idea that those who support it should pull the switch is as ludicrous as saying that those who don't support it should have to be the ones to inform families of subsequent murder victims of their loss. The whole "cost" angle, as well as the 'it's not a deterrent' argument, are full of holes, too. So I'm pointing that out. So getting back to the bone you and I were picking over; you really think it would be that hard for a victim's survivors to push the button that injects the drug or sends high voltage electricity through a murderer's body? After the means of execution were set up anyone could do it. I don't get what difference that makes. I don't get what point you think you're making. Edited March 5, 2012 by American Woman Quote
cybercoma Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 I don't understand how the potential of loss of life by previously convicted murderers wouldn't have any bearing while the potential of loss of life by a wrongful murder conviction would.No kidding you don't understand. One is potential while the other one isn't. When an innocent person is given the death penalty, they will be killed. It's not that they will potentially be killed. On the other hand, when a convict is released from prison or escapes, there is only potential for them to re-offend and even that is quite low. Canadian statistics show that less than 10% re-offend and most of those infractions come from breaching conditions of release rather than committing a new crime. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 No kidding you don't understand. One is potential while the other one isn't. When an innocent person is given the death penalty, they will be killed. It's not that they will potentially be killed. On the other hand, when a convict is released from prison or escapes, there is only potential for them to re-offend and even that is quite low. Canadian statistics show that less than 10% re-offend and most of those infractions come from breaching conditions of release rather than committing a new crime. Counting to ten. Resisting the urge to bang my head against the wall. Taking a deep breath. Okay. Here goes. When an innocent person is given the death penalty, yes, they will be killed. BUT. When an innocent person is murdered by a previously convicted murderer, they too will be killed. The potential is the same in both instances. There is only POTENTIAL for an innocent person to be wrongly convicted and executed just as there is POTENTIAL for a convicted murderer to kill again. Neither scenario is a given. But history has shown that both have occurred. Quote
dre Posted March 5, 2012 Report Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) The potential is the same in both instances. There is only POTENTIAL for an innocent person to be wrongly convicted and executed just as there is POTENTIAL for a convicted murderer to kill again. Neither scenario is a given. But history has shown that both have occurred. So what? Theres potential for a convict given the death penalty to kill again as well. Youre not making any kind of argument either for or against capital punishment here. Edited March 5, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted March 6, 2012 Report Posted March 6, 2012 I don't get what difference that makes. I don't get what point you think you're making. The difference is that if a murder victim's survivors insist on the death penalty then it's on their conscience. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 6, 2012 Report Posted March 6, 2012 The difference is that if a murder victim's survivors insist on the death penalty then it's on their conscience. That's the idea...the victim's survivors may want it to be "on their conscience". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guest American Woman Posted March 6, 2012 Report Posted March 6, 2012 The difference is that if a murder victim's survivors insist on the death penalty then it's on their conscience. I'm still not sure what you're getting at - are you speaking of a person who was wrongfully convicted? Quote
g_bambino Posted March 7, 2012 Report Posted March 7, 2012 For about the zillionth time, I am not advocating a compulsory death sentence!... I'm talking only in cases of beyond any reasonable doubt and of heinous value. Yes, I know; my awareness of that fact was highlighted by the questions I asked, and which I will ask again: I also can't tell how you're setting the parameters that define that group [who should be put to death]. Can the certainty of a conviction ever be 100%? How close to absolute certainty is close enough to warrant a death sentence? And why kill those on one side of the benchmark, but let live in prison potentially for the rest of their lives those on the other? Quote
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