Dieppe, a Massacre of Canadians

[Tilter]

Sure, and the raid was a tactical failure but a strategic coup in terms of costly lessons learned……..My point all along is that it wasn’t a wasteful venture for the Allies at the time, as it clearly demonstrated ones own failings and areas of obvious needed improvement.

When I first started to work in the 50s I worked with 5 or 6 guys who were in the raid. 2 were colonels, brothers, one in the South Alberta Regiment & one in the South Saskatchewan Regiment(bit of sibling rivalry going on there :lol:) . Both Officers were wounded, one severely. The feeling they all gave was that it was a disaster, an experiment and the Canadians were selected to participate as sort of a punishment for their part in a riot at a resort town (whose name escapes me for the moment)Brighton Beach?????(I'm having more of these moments lately ). They also described it as bloody & brutal. I never heard any of them describe their part in it--- likely didn't want to relive any of it. I think it's the type of thing which will never happen again as warfare has changed so much.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Tilter

[August1991]

A slaughter, I might suggest an unnecessary sacrifice to no purpose.

I disagree.

Peeves, you may see Stalingrad as more important than Dieppe. Or Russia's contribution as more important than Canada's.

But Peeves, did Russia defeat Germany? Huh?

"Russia" or "Canada" and "Britain" did not defeat "Germany".

Margaret Thatcher was right. When it comes to war, there is no such thing as "society". There is only "individuals".

No single Russian soldier defeated Hitler, anymore than any single Canadian soldier defeated Hitler.

The individual Canadian soldiers or airmen did as much as any individual Russian, American or Dane or Pole to defeat the individuals of Hitler's army.

Each individual effort, at Dieppe or Stalingrad or elsewhere, stopped this scourge.

-----

I travel frequently to Europe. I take time to visit war cemeteries.

IMV, Canadians (French and English) should take more pride in what other individual Canadians have done.

I wonder/fear what young Canadians today would do faced with similar circumstances. Their willingness to volunteer in Afghanistan gives me hope.

Edited February 21, 2012 by August1991

[DogOnPorch]

Although I agree that the USSR could have probably ultimately defeated Germany without a second front, you forget to mention that the Reds got lots of aid from the west after the Battle of the Atlantic was won and while the war on the Eastern front was going on Allies were fighting in North Africa and Italy. So there kind of was a second front.

The Russian's needed American trucks and fuel more than anything. Without these trucks, the Russians would be hauling their big guns entirely by horse. Their tank armies would also have been notably smaller due to fuel constraints. This was the reason for the Persian Corridor through pro-Axis Iran.

[PIK]

Now I will tell you what actually happened at dieppe, I am amazed that no one brought it up. There was a commando mission to get off the beach cross a bridge,thru a town and take over a german radar station, and hold it untill a radar expert from britian could go over it and get what info he could get. 12 men were to take him there and hold it until he was done or in case of capture ,shoot the expert before the germans got to him. Some say the beach invasion was actually a front to the real mission, the radar station. Out of those 12 men, one survived with the expert. All the men were told it is probably a suicide mission. My understanding is they learned alot from that ,that probably saved 1000's of air mens lives.

[Guest Derek L]

Now I will tell you what actually happened at dieppe, I am amazed that no one brought it up. There was a commando mission to get off the beach cross a bridge,thru a town and take over a german radar station, and hold it untill a radar expert from britian could go over it and get what info he could get. 12 men were to take him there and hold it until he was done or in case of capture ,shoot the expert before the germans got to him. Some say the beach invasion was actually a front to the real mission, the radar station. Out of those 12 men, one survived with the expert. All the men were told it is probably a suicide mission. My understanding is they learned alot from that ,that probably saved 1000's of air mens lives.

That was certainly one of the added benefits but not the sole purpose……….But they never managed to actually get into the radar bunker, but did mange to disable the underground telephone/power cables, thus causing the bunker to transmit raid warnings via coded radio messages (Which the allies had already decoded, see Enigma) which enabled the allies the ability to determine how effective the German radar was and the required amount of countermeasures (see chaff & Jostle) to counter the German radar.

If the raid’s sole purpose was to capture German radar secrets, they would have sent an entire RM Commando to capture the site.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Derek L

[Wilber]

The raid was screwed up but it is a basic truth that more is learned from mistakes than from successes. Hopefully you can learn enough from others mistakes to avoid making your own.

[Guest Derek L]

The raid was screwed up but it is a basic truth that more is learned from mistakes than from successes. Hopefully you can learn enough from others mistakes to avoid making your own.

One would hope so, but it’s been a clear trend of Governments to send Canadians into combat under trained and under equipped…….

[DogOnPorch]

One would hope so, but it’s been a clear trend of Governments to send Canadians into combat under trained and under equipped…….

Hong Kong, for example.

[Guest Derek L]

Hong Kong, for example.

Aside from the Korean War, due in part to it’s proximity to the Second World War, Canadian soldiers, sailors and airmen have entered all of our nations wars under equipped and under trained, and the initial results have been clear.

[PIK]

That was certainly one of the added benefits but not the sole purpose……….But they never managed to actually get into the radar bunker, but did mange to disable the underground telephone/power cables, thus causing the bunker to transmit raid warnings via coded radio messages (Which the allies had already decoded, see Enigma) which enabled the allies the ability to determine how effective the German radar was and the required amount of countermeasures (see chaff & Jostle) to counter the German radar.

If the raids sole purpose was to capture German radar secrets, they would have sent an entire RM Commando to capture the site.

They did get in, my uncle was the last man killed on the way back from the radar, I also knew someone taken prisonor and he actually talked to the radar guy at reunions , plus I have the book. And yes it was not the main reason but one. One thing they did learn was. to send men in to check to see if the beaches can take tanks Edited February 22, 2012 by PIK

[Wilber]

One would hope so, but it’s been a clear trend of Governments to send Canadians into combat under trained and under equipped…….

Unfortunately, a lesson learned is often a lesson ignored.

[Guest Peeves]

Unfortunately, a lesson learned is often a lesson ignored.

Like jungle camouflage attire in a desert war.

[DogOnPorch]

Like jungle camouflage attire in a desert war.

Classic...

Holy crap! Rounds with brass cases!

Edited February 22, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

How's your German?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNMiRtqa3-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEQDt7dIQI

[Guest Derek L]

They did get in, my uncle was the last man killed on the way back from the radar, I also knew someone taken prisonor and he actually talked to the radar guy at reunions , plus I have the book. And yes it was not the main reason but one. One thing they did learn was. to send men in to check to see if the beaches can take tanks

Sorry, you’re mistaken, they never got into the radar station.

Flight Sergeant Nissenthall's (the radar expert) Personal account of the mission:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/71/a2665271.shtml

By now, the mission appeared hopeless so Jack decided he would go around the rear of the station and obtain the secrets of the radar alone. He knew British listening centres on the South coast had often picked up coded messages being sent between the German radars by radio and morse. Cryptographers in Britain then decoded these messages and thus were able to determine the capabilities and strengths of the radar stations. However, now the stations used land line telephones which could not be intercepted. If Jack could cut these lines and force the use of radio again, then the German transmissions could again be picked up in Britain, and the latest secrets revealed, including the possible whereabouts of other yet unknown German radars.

He told Osten to give him covering fire explaining that whatever risk he took, either the Germans or Canadians would get him. He took two grenades from a dead Canadian ( he related how he was determined to blow himself up if in danger of capture), his own tool pack and pistol and rushed the rear wire, getting under it. He still had 50 yards to go and so far was not spotted. He crawled closer over very rough, hard ground and at last saw the wires he was after, leading out of the rear of the station via a short mast on the sloping hill and thence disappearing underground. With his wire cutters (and a spare set in his pocket), he dropped his pack - with the precious avometer given him by his father many years before - and climbed the mast, slowly cutting all eight cables as bullets flew about him - both Canadian and German! By the eighth cable he was suspended 15 feet by one hand and as he snipped it, he fell to earth, rolling away down

the slope towards the Canadian positions. He had done it!

[prairiechickin]

I'm no expert on this topic, but one of the best no-bs sources I've found is Barry Broadfoot's 'Six War Years: Canadians in World War Two'. These are excerpts from the guys that were there. Its only one chapter, but the sense you get is that the Canadians were more than trained, they were itching for a fight. Most had signed in '39 and had endured over two years of training, they were over-trained and ready to get out of camp and fight some Nazis. Mount B screwed this mission up, but it still remained useful on D-Day. Whoever made the comment about the lieutenants figuring it out was spot on, once you've survived that mess you know what to do different the next time.

Three of my great-uncles went in that day with the South Saskatchewan Regiment, all my Grandmother's brothers which is why I know the story, and all three made it out with the usual brovado. All three were there again on D-Day, and that had to help. Two of them made it through, Clifford Skeates was killed a few days later near Caen. For all of its failings, despite its attempts at leadership, the guys that survived Dieppe may have been the critical element on the beaches of Normandy, and that alone may have made it worth the Canadian lives in 1942.

[Guest Derek L]

I'm no expert on this topic, but one of the best no-bs sources I've found is Barry Broadfoot's 'Six War Years: Canadians in World War Two'. These are excerpts from the guys that were there. Its only one chapter, but the sense you get is that the Canadians were more than trained, they were itching for a fight. Most had signed in '39 and had endured over two years of training, they were over-trained and ready to get out of camp and fight some Nazis. Mount B screwed this mission up, but it still remained useful on D-Day. Whoever made the comment about the lieutenants figuring it out was spot on, once you've survived that mess you know what to do different the next time.

Three of my great-uncles went in that day with the South Saskatchewan Regiment, all my Grandmother's brothers which is why I know the story, and all three made it out with the usual brovado. All three were there again on D-Day, and that had to help. Two of them made it through, Clifford Skeates was killed a few days later near Caen. For all of its failings, despite its attempts at leadership, the guys that survived Dieppe may have been the critical element on the beaches of Normandy, and that alone may have made it worth the Canadian lives in 1942.

I would never say Lord Mountbatten screwed up the Raid, since as outlined previous, the Allies were resource limited and frankly, a mission such as this had never been tried, resulting in not having a precedent to use as a template………As I’ve said, one can look at many first’s in warfare and judge said actions with hindsight.

[PIK]

Sorry, you’re mistaken, they never got into the radar station.

Flight Sergeant Nissenthall's (the radar expert) Personal account of the mission:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/71/a2665271.shtml

It has been a while since I read it and maybe you are right, I will pull it out again.The book is the green beach. In a book called the glorious chapter which my uncle is mentioned in that one also, one german had said ''what took you so long, we have been waiting for some time for you to get here'' something in that fashion, have not read that book in a while. But a movie should be done on the whole raid.

[Guest Derek L]

It has been a while since I read it and maybe you are right, I will pull it out again.The book is the green beach. In a book called the glorious chapter which my uncle is mentioned in that one also, one german had said ''what took you so long, we have been waiting for some time for you to get here'' something in that fashion, have not read that book in a while. But a movie should be done on the whole raid.

They still, indirectly, learned the effectiveness of the German radar by the actions of those few that undertook the mission……….I know from talking with my father, that he near single handily prevented the Korean war from becoming a total loss

[bush_cheney2004]

I would never say Lord Mountbatten screwed up the Raid, since as outlined previous, the Allies were resource limited and frankly, a mission such as this had never been tried,....

Plus there is the credible possibility that plans for the raid had been compromised weeks in advance.

That this event was never depicted in a splashy film production like so many other WW2 engagements is understandable, given the horrific casualty rates, especially for the Canadians. And to continue the unexpected outcome, the Germans interned the dead in a dedicated military cemetery that is maintained to this day.

The Wiki entry reports that der Führer actually rewarded Dieppe for not supporting the raid by releasing prisoners from the town; many individuals who had never been to Dieppe suddenly became home boys.

Edited February 23, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[PIK]

They still, indirectly, learned the effectiveness of the German radar by the actions of those few that undertook the mission……….I know from talking with my father, that he near single handily prevented the Korean war from becoming a total loss

My uncle was a 34 year old private when he hit the beach, hard drinking, hard fighting man. But he was the one everyone liked, he beat you in a fight he would pick you up and buy you a beer. That is probably why he was picked , no fear and love to fight.

[August1991]

I'm no expert on this topic, but one of the best no-bs sources I've found is Barry Broadfoot's 'Six War Years: Canadians in World War Two'. These are excerpts from the guys that were there. Its only one chapter, but the sense you get is that the Canadians were more than trained, they were itching for a fight.

I have been to Dieppe twice, and I have seen this documentary. The biggest question in my mind is why any single Canadian soldier would volunteer to land in Dieppe.

My uncle was a 34 year old private when he hit the beach, hard drinking, hard fighting man. But he was the one everyone liked, he beat you in a fight he would pick you up and buy you a beer. That is probably why he was picked , no fear and love to fight.

----

While talking to a Russian tank commander who survived Smolensk, I sort-of understood the idea to my question. But it took Margaret Thatcher (and a broader life) to understand the idea well. It took a walk around a US military cemetery in Italy (Nettuno) with my young daughter to understand it best.

Countries don't fight countries. Russia did not defeat Germany.

Individual Canadians and individual Russians defeated this scourge. Each individual effort, whether Canadian or Russian - or even German, deserves respect.

As Margaret Thatcher said, there is no such thing as society; we act as individuals.

Edited February 25, 2012 by August1991

[prairiechickin]

I have been to Dieppe twice, and I have seen this documentary. The biggest question in my mind is why any single Canadian soldier would volunteer to land in Dieppe.

If memory serves, they were volunteered for the mission not knowing the destination. The intent was to raid the French coast to cause a little chaos, scoop some intel, and kill a few Nazis, the perfect sort of day trip for some camp-weary Canadians. According to most observers, cover was blown early in the mission and it should have been scrubbed, but they went ahead anyway under heavy fire from clifftop instillations. Those that made it inland were captured, a nice reward for three or four hours of combat.

[VeTRooTReM]

You are mistaken. I can prove it. Write to me in PM, we will communicate.