Equalization

Topaz · February 6, 2012

A new study out says the nations wealth-sharing scheme violates the constitution with the equalization formulas which short changes some provinces. In the 1990's-early 2000's, ie. Ontario needed 4.56 Bil MORE for services and Quebec needed 6.39Bil. less to provide the same level of services. One thing that shouldn't have to happen is to having one province going after the other province, so Ottawa needs to make these equalization more equal and balance by need? Thoughts? http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1126602--canada-s-wealth-sharing-plan-is-unconstitutional-study-says?bn=1

TheNewTeddy · February 6, 2012

Despite equalization, Ontario is still paying "in" to Canada as a whole. Some programs (IE those dealing with oceans) don't do much in Ontario.

Hydraboss · February 6, 2012

This is my favorite part....

With Ontario facing major cuts to eliminate a $16 billion deficit this year, the treasurer said it’s unfair that taxpayers here subsidize their fellow Canadians who receive higher levels of service

Uhmm, haven't Albertans been saying that for about 40 years now? How come "The Star" never listened then?

fellowtraveller · February 6, 2012

This is my favorite part....

Uhmm, haven't Albertans been saying that for about 40 years now? How come "The Star" never listened then?

No, Albertans rarely say anything of the sort.

Oh, a few redneck Wild Rose fringedwellers do, but the actions of the PCs in the last year have relegated them to the political wilderness. They just don't know it yet but it will be very obvious soon.

In general, equalization and Albertas funding -and-not-receiving-role in it are both acknowledged and accepted locally.

TheNewTeddy · February 6, 2012

Ontario has been paying in since Confederation, while Alberta's only been paying in since the 70's or so.

Tilter · February 10, 2012

No, Albertans rarely say anything of the sort.

Oh, a few redneck Wild Rose fringedwellers do, but the actions of the PCs in the last year have relegated them to the political wilderness. They just don't know it yet but it will be very obvious soon.

In general, equalization and Albertas funding -and-not-receiving-role in it are both acknowledged and accepted locally.

Hence the Wildrose & Western Canada parties.

If you think the west is complacently waiting for some fairness in Federal government ---- think again. The next neverendum could be at the Ontario border with the succession question printed in bold clear ENGLISH (only)

Smallc · February 11, 2012

If you think that's going to happen, you're insane.

Tilter · February 11, 2012

If you think that's going to happen, you're insane.

No, phrase that "the east will go insane"

Unlike our French cousins in Eastern Canada the western provinces HAVE the ability, financial means & the facility to have almost any industry they want.

Watch it grow.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Tilter

August1991 · February 11, 2012

A new study out says the nations wealth-sharing scheme violates the constitution with the equalization formulas which short changes some provinces.

This new study took into account the cost of living in each province; the current equalization formula is based only on the ability to tax.

Uhmm, haven't Albertans been saying that for about 40 years now? How come "The Star" never listened then?

Good point. IOW, if everyone had to pay taxes, maybe everyone would care more about government spending.

-----

I don't know the statistics exactly but the last time I checked, the German bailout of Greece is much smaller than the ongoing equalization transfers between Alberta and the Maritimes/Quebec.

IMV, the current situation in Europe raises grave questions for Canada: 1. We too have a common currency. 2. We too have large transfers from taxpayer-in-one-place to a-government-elsewhere.

Smallc · February 11, 2012

The difference of course being that we are a single couture....and they aren't.

dre · February 11, 2012

No, phrase that "the east will go insane"

Unlike our French cousins in Eastern Canada the western provinces HAVE the ability, financial means & the facility to have almost any industry they want.

Watch it grow.

I dunno... BC is up and down, and Alberta is doing well because any bunch of retards that live on top of a bunch of oil can make money (see the middle east).

I like living out here, but that level of western nationalism is pretty unfounded and silly.

Smallc · February 11, 2012

No, phrase that "the east will go insane"

I will simply direct you to my previous post. This country isn't about to split up.

August1991 · February 11, 2012

The difference of course being that we are a single couture....and they aren't.

Couture?

Because of equalization, the Nova Scotia and Quebec governments can, for example, tax people in Alberta.

Equalization takes money from people and gives it to other governments. Equalization makes the State more impressive.

Edited February 11, 2012 by August1991

Smallc · February 11, 2012

Couture?

Because of equalization, the Nova Scotia and Quebec governments can, for example, tax people in Alberta.

Equalization takes money from people and gives it to other governments. Equalization makes the State more impressive.

No, actually, but nice try.

August1991 · February 11, 2012

No, actually, but nice try.

Nice try?

Equalization is the ultimate argument of the State: we will support you with other people's money.

Canada's federal version of equalization intrigues me: like third world aid, equalization taxes individuals in one jurisdiction and gives the money to governments in another jurisdiction.

When it comes to third world aid or equalization, I would prefer giving/transferring the money directly to individuals - not governments.

Edited February 11, 2012 by August1991

dre · February 11, 2012

When it comes to third world aid or equalization, I would prefer giving/transferring the money directly to individuals - not governments.

Thats a nice slogan but whats your real plan to replace transfer payments?

August1991 · February 11, 2012

Thats a nice slogan but whats your real plan to replace transfer payments?

Uh, equalization means transfer of money to people - not provincial governments.

I would apply the same idea to third world aid. In Canada, once upon a time, federal Liberals called this the "Baby Bonus". Then, the federal Liberals let bureaucrats get involved - and it became a tax credit.

-----

Stephen Harper understands this idea better. He cut the GST.

Edited February 11, 2012 by August1991

dre · February 11, 2012

Uh, equalization means transfer of money to people - not provincial governments.

I would apply the same idea to third world aid. In Canada, once upon a time, federal Liberals called this the "Baby Bonus". Then, the federal Liberals let bureaucrats get involved - and it became a tax credit.

-----

Stephen Harper understands this idea better. He cut the GST.

I see what youre saying... So you cut the provincial government out and the federal government writes checks directly to people?

Why not stop the money from moving completely?

For example... if the Federal government wants to transfer money from Province A to Province B, why not just increase the federal income tax in province A and decrease it a couple percent in Province B?

Exact same result except you eliminate most of the transactions, and move money from one place to the other then back.

Jerry J. Fortin · February 11, 2012

There is only one tax payer. All the rest is window dressing at best. Fed tax, employment tax, and pension tax, all at once before the standard employment deductions. They call it a withholding tax, no shit. It works the opposite way for business taxes, companies get to withhold tax from the government. Where once business taxes made up 80% of tax revenues for the government, the situation has now reversed and the citizens pay 80% of tax revenues. Now lets remember that most of us are paying some form of provincial sales tax, along with a GST.

Equalization is a direct tax imposed by federal mandate. That is how it really works, forget the ENRON accounting practices and just realize it as another tax.

No matter which way you look at it, the citizen is getting screwed. The citizens foot the bill, every time. It should not matter who is getting screwed by the feds, all provinces should be up in arms over this crap. At every level the citizen gets leveraged into corners.

The nation needs serious tax reforms, just as much as it needs to figure out what a budget is. For openers we need some form of fiscal responsibility incorporated into the constitution. Next on a to do list is the entire issue of taxation. Reforms are needed.

punked · February 11, 2012

Couture?

Because of equalization, the Nova Scotia and Quebec governments can, for example, tax people in Alberta.

Equalization takes money from people and gives it to other governments. Equalization makes the State more impressive.

Listen as long as Alberta continues to grow because of the shift of educated workers from the East, the will have to pay the East to grow educate and keep those worker healthy. Heck the Mayor of Fort McMurry is a Nova Scotian, he was raised in NS, he was educated there and he moved to Alberta because there was opportunity but NS are the ones who put the work in to get him to the age he could contribute to Alberta's growing economy.

It is partnership that keeps the country strong and vibrant. It would be bad policy for Canada to stop equalization because you can either have an educated large work force to grow the country and make it richer, or you can have an uneducated less productive workforce to drag us down.

August1991 · February 12, 2012

Why not stop the money from moving completely?
For example... if the Federal government wants to transfer money from Province A to Province B, why not just increase the federal income tax in province A and decrease it a couple percent in Province B?

We already do as you suggest. Quebec taxpayers pay a lower federal tax than Canadians in other provinces. Abattement

In fact, this question is far more complicated. Consider the HST. Is it clear what money goes to the federal government and what goes to to the provincial government?

Moreover, does this even matter? Many Canadians pay no tax at all - since they receive GST/HST refunds. They are spending other people's money and I doubt that they care where the money comes from as long as the cheque arrives, or the money is deposited in their account next Thursday.

It is partnership that keeps the country strong and vibrant. It would be bad policy for Canada to stop equalization because you can either have an educated large work force to grow the country and make it richer, or you can have an uneducated less productive workforce to drag us down.

A partnership where I can spend your money may pose problems; if you live in one place and I live elsewhere, the partnership is unlikely to be sustainable.

Long distance love affairs rarely last.

As I say, regionalism - not ideology - drives Canada's federal politics.

Edited February 12, 2012 by August1991

MiddleClassCentrist · February 12, 2012

Hence the Wildrose & Western Canada parties.

If you think the west is complacently waiting for some fairness in Federal government ---- think again. The next neverendum could be at the Ontario border with the succession question printed in bold clear ENGLISH (only)

Alberta's wealth comes from resources.

Ontario's wealth comes from people.

It's easy to say "ME ME ME ME!" when your relatively small workforce can prosper in a petrol dollar environment while Ontario, whose resource is people, suffers because its people lose jobs as the rising petrol dollar makes "people work" prohibitively expensive.

Edited February 12, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist

punked · February 12, 2012

A partnership where I can spend your money may pose problems; if you live in one place and I live elsewhere, the partnership is unlikely to be sustainable.

Long distance love affairs rarely last.

As I say, regionalism - not ideology - drives Canada's federal politics.

Listen NS may need equalization to keep its education and health care standards up, but Alberta needs NS workers to keep growing their economy. They get back every dollar in an educated workforce.

We will forget all the money going back Alberta owes the people of the East building the railroad so they could be connected to this land, the money they invested in Albertan info-structure and the Aid provided to the Albertan Farmers over the years. Alberta needs to look at this an investment, their greatest challenge over the next decade will be its need for a growing workforce in a shrinking country. So they can either have educated workers who will grow their economy (and pay for them) or watch their economy fail because they are to selfish to understand how a Federation works.

Edited February 12, 2012 by punked

Jerry J. Fortin · February 12, 2012

Listen NS may need equalization to keep its education and health care standards up, but Alberta needs NS workers to keep growing their economy. They get back every dollar in an educated workforce.

We will forget all the money going back Alberta owes the people of the East building the railroad so they could be connected to this land, the money they invested in Albertan info-structure and the Aid provided to the Albertan Farmers over the years. Alberta needs to look at this an investment, their greatest challenge over the next decade will be its need for a growing workforce in a shrinking country. So they can either have educated workers who will grow their economy (and pay for them) or watch their economy fail because they are to selfish to understand how a Federation works.

Hold on there! Alberta is a pay as you go kinda place, and we have been paying our share since day one. You might want to consider how the fed has treated Alberta OVER THE YEARS. Do you recall that King let Alberta default in the depression, they actually refused us both credit and capital. They damn near busted us down to nothing, yet we persevered. We have our own bank now, ATB Financial. We had to create the damned thing on our own, when the Bay Street Bankers pulled up stakes and called in all of our debts, then promptly shut down all the financial institutions short of one bank in Calgary and one in Edmonton. Not very nice for Albertans'.

Fast forward to the NEP, I think we all accept the reality of that treatment. Look at the BSE crisis. Income trusts anyone? Now we are getting the gears because our provincial economy is faring better than others. It doesn't seem to matter what the situation this Province of Alberta has met challenge after challenge and we have prevailed time and time again. We have worked within Confederation since 1905, not always to our best interests or simply on our own account. These sturdy Alberta citizens are neither selfish or ignorant of our position. While Canada could very well shrink, I will suggest that Alberta has and is continuing to grow and diversify its interests. Lets just say that Alberta with no provincial debt, no provincial sales tax, a very low personal and business taxes structure, is in a decidedly advantageous position as compared to the rest of the nation.

Alberta has yet to stretch out its hand, as other provinces have done before them have, and take a shot at nation building. On the other hand, that is exactly what we will be doing very soon. Energy is a valuable resource, one we are taking steps to convert to our best advantage.

I will suggest that we will earn favour within Confederation very soon. Using the Ontario tradition of being the economic engine, we will transform our land, not ending with, but instead beginning with our own regional (western) economy. Our little political arrangements within our western provinces will begin to dominate Confederation to the dismay of our detractors.

MiddleClassCentrist · February 13, 2012

Hold on there! Alberta is a pay as you go kinda place, and we have been paying our share since day one. You might want to consider how the fed has treated Alberta OVER THE YEARS. Do you recall that King let Alberta default in the depression, they actually refused us both credit and capital. They damn near busted us down to nothing, yet we persevered. We have our own bank now, ATB Financial. We had to create the damned thing on our own, when the Bay Street Bankers pulled up stakes and called in all of our debts, then promptly shut down all the financial institutions short of one bank in Calgary and one in Edmonton. Not very nice for Albertans'.

Fast forward to the NEP, I think we all accept the reality of that treatment. Look at the BSE crisis. Income trusts anyone? Now we are getting the gears because our provincial economy is faring better than others. It doesn't seem to matter what the situation this Province of Alberta has met challenge after challenge and we have prevailed time and time again. We have worked within Confederation since 1905, not always to our best interests or simply on our own account. These sturdy Alberta citizens are neither selfish or ignorant of our position. While Canada could very well shrink, I will suggest that Alberta has and is continuing to grow and diversify its interests. Lets just say that Alberta with no provincial debt, no provincial sales tax, a very low personal and business taxes structure, is in a decidedly advantageous position as compared to the rest of the nation.

Alberta has yet to stretch out its hand, as other provinces have done before them have, and take a shot at nation building. On the other hand, that is exactly what we will be doing very soon. Energy is a valuable resource, one we are taking steps to convert to our best advantage.

I will suggest that we will earn favour within Confederation very soon. Using the Ontario tradition of being the economic engine, we will transform our land, not ending with, but instead beginning with our own regional (western) economy. Our little political arrangements within our western provinces will begin to dominate Confederation to the dismay of our detractors.

1. You sound as if you actually were there during the depression... Most people of Alberta have since immigrated there and have nothing to do with the depression. It was no personal hardship for you.

2-3. By diversify interests, you mean oil and more oil right? Acting like your province is well off because of personal effort is like me walking into my backyard, finding a hidden gold mine, becoming a millionaire and claiming that I build my life off of blood, sweat and tears. Oil allows Alberta to live in the illusion that far right wing policies are better, because they are pumping money out of the ground. 100 years down the road, Alberta will have peaked and fallen. Oil economy has a limited time span.

4. You mean that you are converting it to the advantage of the foreign entities (American and Other)... at the cost of creating a toxic ecosystem.

5. Alberta isn't the economic engine. It's a double edged sword. Developing tar sands at the expense of everything else. Our dollar goes up, killing Ontario's ability to compete as a manufacturing base. And in some sick and twisted way, westerners seem to want that to happen.

Edited February 13, 2012 by MiddleClassCentrist