So does this make your blood boil?

[GostHacked]

And Fundamentalist Islam won't be stopped either. But the invasion of Afganistan certainly crippled Al-Queda's ability to organize and plan attacks on a large scale.

The attackers on 9/11 as an operation was not really large scale. It was pulled off by ... 20 people? And you don't need a lot of people to commit another attack. Handful of people with a small nuke can do a good job.

Sure it may still happen but considering the death of Osama bin Laden recently the US Military is clearly doing a decent intelligence job in keeping the who's who of Al-Queda on the run and away from planning large scale attacks.

Sure they got Bin Laden, Al-Awlaki, however the real man behind Al-Queda, Zarwahiri is still alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri

[Army Guy]

cybercoma,

No. I'm pretty sure I can judge someone for pissing on human corpses without having to step in their shoes. It's disgusting and shameful.

You have not just judge someone but you have judged the entire US military, in fact you've judged an entire nation...you done so with the knowledge that Canadian Armed forces have done similar things, in fact if you have done any research you'll find similar instances from just about every nation that has taken up arms....

And yet you remain silent about these crimes or acts instead you have chosen this case to further your SLAG THE US campaign...So which is it is this about slagging the US, or is this about the horrors of war...

Well, I guess we can all just stfu about murderers, rapists, gang members, drug dealers, and child molesters too because we don't "have any experience in the relevent [sic] field."

Your not comparing this act with the above are you....

How about recognizing the fact that the US military has repeatedly over the last 10 years committed disgusting acts of this calibre, resulting in at least one commission (Abu Ghraib) indicating that there is a systemic cultural deficiency in the military? Not everyone is as myopic as those that demand this incident needs to be isolated from all the others.

This statement just reinforces that this is not about the act but instead about the US military and how you feel about Americans as a whole...What your failing to consider is this is not just about the US military but about War in general, and how humans react in a world gone insane...There are examples out there on every nation and how it has conducted itself in war, Not one nation is the exception...ALL have recorded inapproaite behavior....

So what is your piont ? that the act is disgusting and shameful, I think everyone here will agree it was wrong....But that is not your piont is it....it's deeper than that....

And yet i think you have this conception that War is full of rules and conventions that every soldier must conduct himself as perfect citizens of the country they represent...and while that may look good on paper, it fails to recongize the horrors of war, reality in the real world of things...This is where you have made a judement you fail to understand...To you, the act ranks right up there with the beast of criminals, to a soldier that has seen the hoorors of combat is was a minor mistake, yes it is wrong...but in comparison to all the wrongs in war....it is minor....

[Boges]

The attackers on 9/11 as an operation was not really large scale. It was pulled off by ... 20 people? And you don't need a lot of people to commit another attack. Handful of people with a small nuke can do a good job.

I imagine it would take more than a few people to get a nuke in the US, Canada, the UK or any NATO country.

Sure they got Bin Laden, Al-Awlaki, however the real man behind Al-Queda, Zarwahiri is still alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri

Who says he's the real man behind them? And how the Hell did you get on Wikipedia today! :-D

Edited January 18, 2012 by Boges

[Army Guy]

The terrorists in which the west is trying to fight has none of those markers like the Nazis. Instead of one country in which the enemy came from, you have them in multiple countries, and in many cases uncontrollable by the country they are operating in. Al-Queda operates in 20 or more countries. How do you expect to fight that? And Al-Queda is always on the move. How do you expect to fight that? IN this case you have no real idea who the enemy actually is.

We have to continue to fight terrorists and terrorism were every it rises, if we give in anyone that uses terror as a wpn to get what they want will do so....and total caus will erupt...

The west has actually gotten very good at fighting terrorism, regardless of what everyone thinks, they have developed new tactics, new methods, new equipment....

[Guest American Woman]

I imagine it would take more than a few people to get a nuke in the US, Canada, the UK or any NATO country.

I imagine it would take more than a few people to get access to it, to make the plans, and to finance it, too - just like the 9-11 attacks took more than the 19 hijackers and "the real man behind al Qaeda" as per Gosthack's claim to carry out the attacks.

Who says he's the real man behind them? And how the Hell did you get on Wikipedia today! :-D

You can get on Wikipedia by hitting the "X" when it first loads - stopping it from advancing to the "blackout" page.

According to Gosthacked's link: On April 30, 2009, the U.S. State Department reported that al-Zawahiri had emerged as al-Qaeda's operational and strategic commander[81] and that Osama bin Laden was now only the ideological figurehead of the organization.

Of course that was after 9-11.....

[cybercoma]

cybercoma,

You have not just judge someone but you have judged the entire US military, in fact you've judged an entire nation...you done so with the knowledge that Canadian Armed forces have done similar things, in fact if you have done any research you'll find similar instances from just about every nation that has taken up arms....

And yet you remain silent about these crimes or acts instead you have chosen this case to further your SLAG THE US campaign...So which is it is this about slagging the US, or is this about the horrors of war...

Your not comparing this act with the above are you....

This statement just reinforces that this is not about the act but instead about the US military and how you feel about Americans as a whole...What your failing to consider is this is not just about the US military but about War in general, and how humans react in a world gone insane...There are examples out there on every nation and how it has conducted itself in war, Not one nation is the exception...ALL have recorded inapproaite behavior....

So what is your piont ? that the act is disgusting and shameful, I think everyone here will agree it was wrong....But that is not your piont is it....it's deeper than that....

And yet i think you have this conception that War is full of rules and conventions that every soldier must conduct himself as perfect citizens of the country they represent...and while that may look good on paper, it fails to recongize the horrors of war, reality in the real world of things...This is where you have made a judement you fail to understand...To you, the act ranks right up there with the beast of criminals, to a soldier that has seen the hoorors of combat is was a minor mistake, yes it is wrong...but in comparison to all the wrongs in war....it is minor....

My point is that there is a problem with discipline and command in the US military. There is a cultural problem within the US armed forces. This isn't about Americans themselves. I'm not sure how you people are making that leap. Also, I'm pretty tired of this nonsense about having to bring up all of the abuses that happen in every military everywhere if I want to criticize the American military for what they do. The only reason you and others want me to do that is to excuse the United States military by saying it's common. That is not a logical argument. The fact of the matter is that it's not right when they do it and it's not right when anyone else does it. When these sorts of shameful and disgusting activities continue to occur within the military, even after it's brought to the administration's attention, there's a huge problem. I shouldn't have to underline the oppression, abuse, and terror inflicted by the Taliban when criticizing the United States military because they're both in the wrong. More to the point, if you're supposed to be occupying the moral high-ground, then having a systemic problem with these sorts of abuses absolutely destroys any claim to that whatsoever.

[GostHacked]

I imagine it would take more than a few people to get access to it, to make the plans, and to finance it, too - just like the 9-11 attacks took more than the 19 hijackers and "the real man behind al Qaeda" as per Gosthack's claim to carry out the attacks.

There are places today where it would be quite easy to get a nuke or nuclear material for a dirty bomb. Much easier than we would expect. Pakistan would be a possibility.

[quopte]According to Gosthacked's link: On April 30, 2009, the U.S. State Department reported that al-Zawahiri had emerged as al-Qaeda's operational and strategic commander[81] and that Osama bin Laden was now only the ideological figurehead of the organization.

Of course that was after 9-11.....

Al-Zawahiri was (may still be) part of the Muslim Brotherhood. He was one guy responsible in the death of Egyptian President Sadat. He's been involved in terrorism longer than Bin Laden. Zawahiri took Bin Laden under his wing. So yes he was a 'figure head' of sorts for Al-Queda. He's had a long history in which the US knew about and was tracking before Bin Laden came onto the scene.

[huh]

My point is that there is a problem with discipline and command in the US military. There is a cultural problem within the US armed forces. This isn't about Americans themselves. I'm not sure how you people are making that leap. Also, I'm pretty tired of this nonsense about having to bring up all of the abuses that happen in every military everywhere if I want to criticize the American military for what they do. The only reason you and others want me to do that is to excuse the United States military by saying it's common. That is not a logical argument. The fact of the matter is that it's not right when they do it and it's not right when anyone else does it. When these sorts of shameful and disgusting activities continue to occur within the military, even after it's brought to the administration's attention, there's a huge problem. I shouldn't have to underline the oppression, abuse, and terror inflicted by the Taliban when criticizing the United States military because they're both in the wrong. More to the point, if you're supposed to be occupying the moral high-ground, then having a systemic problem with these sorts of abuses absolutely destroys any claim to that whatsoever.

"Stay classy, USA! Way to stoop to the level of those you condemn. So much for that moral high-road."

So you're "tired" of people comparing the acts of americans to their enemies? Perhaps you shouldn't have opened that can of worms then by claiming the above, it was you who started this.

[cybercoma]

If you think America is comparable to the Taliban, that's really saying something.

[bush_cheney2004]

My point is that there is a problem with discipline and command in the US military. There is a cultural problem within the US armed forces. This isn't about Americans themselves. I'm not sure how you people are making that leap...

It's not a leap at all...America's armed forces consist of volunteers from the nation and its very diverse culture. US DoD is a very large organization with a separate law (uniform code) specifically in place because of the rules and regulations that must be enforced for discipline and force readiness. At any point in time there are thousands of screw ups and criminals going through the system at the command level or in formal court proceedings...just like the rest of America's citizens.

That doesn't mean America's armed forces have a cultural problem, or should be judged based on the actions of a few. Such logic would have us believe that Canadian Forces are equally undisciplined and devoid of command structure because of torture, murder, and stealing panties.

[Army Guy]

My point is that there is a problem with discipline and command in the US military. There is a cultural problem within the US armed forces. This isn't about Americans themselves. I'm not sure how you people are making that leap.

What proof have you presented that there is a problem with discipline and command in the entire US military, you've cited a few problems and a few cases , which has been countered by the fact every military has these few problems...and that each one of these problems the military has addressed each one, and has dealt out punishment... what you've failed to mention is that the majority of the military conducts itself within it's rules and regulations and moral values set out by that nation.....If i was to use this logic , and look at our nation, Criminal stats say there are 50 DUI across Canada every 12 hours, does this mean Canadians are drunks, not to mention the amount of Rapes that happen every hour, are we all horney, deprived monsters....your argument does not hold water.

And as Bush has explained these militaries are made up from across the scectrum of the entire nation, and reflect upon the entire nation, and it is not just a military problem but one that reflects on the nation itself as a whole....So how can it not be about Americans...

Also, I'm pretty tired of this nonsense about having to bring up all of the abuses that happen in every military everywhere if I want to criticize the American military for what they do. The only reason you and others want me to do that is to excuse the United States military by saying it's common. That is not a logical argument.

If it is common, then it needs to be considered....

More to the point, if you're supposed to be occupying the moral high-ground, then having a systemic problem with these sorts of abuses absolutely destroys any claim to that whatsoever.

Nations and there people claim to hold the moral high ground which is bullshit...they talk a good game but very few people practice it....Soldiers say they do, again we say just about anything we are told to say..but any time in combat and we don't even come close....Yes we can stand up and claim we have not draged and multilated corspes of dead soldiers across town for the media to see...

But in WAR there is no moral high ground, Our nations sent us over there to Kill as many as these bastards as we could, as fast as we could, as set very few rules to do it...Think about that for a minute....you have given us a green light to kill....by bullet, bombs, fire,chemical,knife fork and spoon if need be...day and night, while he's sleeping or awake...you don't care you just want us to kill....then you get all creeped out because 4 guys pissed on one of them....But you don't say a word when i use a 25mm cannon on one of them , and vaporize everything about him except his shoes.....My entire piont was this ....nothing is what it seems in combat, your imersed in the horrors of war, eventuly the rules become greyed....or seem minor in nature...Pissing on these guy was menat to disrespect him...it was meant to prevoke a reaction by the enemy....

[GostHacked]

My entire piont was this ....nothing is what it seems in combat, your imersed in the horrors of war, eventuly the rules become greyed....or seem minor in nature...Pissing on these guy was menat to disrespect him...it was meant to prevoke a reaction by the enemy....

These kinds of actions will provoke the enemy. Unfortunately you are going to be the first one on the receiving end of the reaction. If you support this kinds of actions, then you must also be prepared for those reactions.

I'd prefer to just bring you and the rest of the troops home. This war has lasted longer than WW1 and WW2. And to what end? Is there a clear vision of what needs to be done?

[prairiechickin]

I'd prefer to just bring you and the rest of the troops home. This war has lasted longer than WW1 and WW2. And to what end? Is there a clear vision of what needs to be done?

I can second that, whatever the reason was for going over there in the first place, it was a spent force five years ago. Time to bring everybody home and leave Afganistan to its fate.

[Boges]

I can second that, whatever the reason was for going over there in the first place, it was a spent force five years ago. Time to bring everybody home and leave Afganistan to its fate.

The Korean War isn't over, there's still a US Military presence there.

There's a large US presence in both Germany and Japan too ditto for Saudi Arabia.

Even if the "reasons" for going to war in Afganistan have been achieved, I doubt the US would leave at this point.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Boges

[bush_cheney2004]

I can second that, whatever the reason was for going over there in the first place, it was a spent force five years ago. Time to bring everybody home and leave Afganistan to its fate.

...and if that fate be another failed state, the troops will be right back there again.

[Army Guy]

These kinds of actions will provoke the enemy. Unfortunately you are going to be the first one on the receiving end of the reaction. If you support this kinds of actions, then you must also be prepared for those reactions.

It's not that i support them, i just see this incident as minor in nature...Unfortunately we are always going to be on the recieving end, it is what we get paid for, much like leaving unit calling cards, or signs hung around the dead that read "compliments of such and such unit",there are hundrds of practices most armies do that would be considered disgusting by some....Provoking an enemy reaction is what war is all about...War is hell, and does not and will not follow any deep moral values we think should be followed...And as i said before there is no Moral high ground..not in war anyways...it's about killing more bad guys than they are willing to lose...moral high ground, right or wrong has nothing to do with it...and if you can do that you win , you get what ever it was you went to war over....Moral high ground is for historians and civilains to talk about over supper....

One could say it prolongs the war, it is a recruitment tool, etc etc but this war is over 10 years old now, if you asked the average insurgent how the war started he could not tell you, for some he is fighting because the war in some way has touched him personally and he wants revenge, or pay back,for others it's a way to prove his dedication to his religion, But for most he's fighting to provide for his family. For the west, it's about telling one nation they crossed the line, a message to the rest of the world as well cross that line and you'll end up like them...

i'd prefer to just bring you and the rest of the troops home. This war has lasted longer than WW1 and WW2. And to what end? Is there a clear vision of what needs to be done?

Well there is alot of to what end, the Taliban have been removed from power, they no longer pose a threat to the modern world, they don't have power over the people of Afghanistan....Life in Afghanistan was improved leaps and bounds from what it was under the taliban....but it all comes at a price, one everyone has to be willing to pay...or it is not going to work....we have the vision, we just don't have the will or patients anymore.

[GostHacked]

Well there is alot of to what end, the Taliban have been removed from power, they no longer pose a threat to the modern world, they don't have power over the people of Afghanistan....Life in Afghanistan was improved leaps and bounds from what it was under the taliban....but it all comes at a price, one everyone has to be willing to pay...or it is not going to work....we have the vision, we just don't have the will or patients anymore.

So how do you feel about the USA negotiating with the Taliban to have peace within Afghanistan?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/01/19/us-sees-new-interest-from-taliban-in-peace-talks/

Article tries to make it look like the USA is reaching out to these guys for negotiations , but the Taliban is not having any of it.

How do you feel about the law of the land in Afghanistan which is only slightly better than what was under the Taliban?

How do you feel about being used to support a country that has the largest opium crops on the planet in which the Taliban eradicated? Do you also know much of that opium is used in western pharmaceuticals?

[Army Guy]

So how do you feel about the USA negotiating with the Taliban to have peace within Afghanistan?

The Taliban are going to play a role one way or another, be it lead by the US or by what ever Afghan party is in charge...Keep in mind the US will be calling the shots, and if the Taliban screw it up, the US will be back in there ....so they have to play by the rules, or wake up to a stealth helo, and 30 Navy seals...

How do you feel about the law of the land in Afghanistan which is only slightly better than what was under the Taliban?

Thats a myth...i will give you this it's not down town toronto, but it is thousand times better than it was when we arrived for ROTO 1....

How do you feel about being used to support a country that has the largest opium crops on the planet in which the Taliban eradicated? Do you also know much of that opium is used in western pharmaceuticals?

Another Myth ? taliban eradicated free farmers from growing it, however they taliban were not stupid, and used the drug trade, to finance alot of things....When we were doing patrols here in Roto 1 there were Poppy field every where...and that was in Kanadar right in the heart of Taliban country...

Not sure how much of it is used for the legal drug market, i do know that it was talked about using the opium for just that market as a cash crop for farmers...but i don't know what became of it...

[Guest American Woman]

My point is that there is a problem with discipline and command in the US military. There is a cultural problem within the US armed forces. This isn't about Americans themselves. I'm not sure how you people are making that leap.

US troops are Americans. Our military is part of our country. Our military has helped make our country what it is.

Also, I'm pretty tired of this nonsense about having to bring up all of the abuses that happen in every military everywhere if I want to criticize the American military for what they do.

And I'm pretty tired of the nonsense of your selective biased criticism of the US. I guess we all have our crosses to bear, eh?

The only reason you and others want me to do that is to excuse the United States military by saying it's common.

No, not to "excuse;" to recognize the reality.

That is not a logical argument.

Actually it is a "logical argument" regarding your claims about the US military.

The fact of the matter is that it's not right when they do it and it's not right when anyone else does it.

Has anyone said otherwise? No, they have not.

When these sorts of shameful and disgusting activities continue to occur within the military, even after it's brought to the administration's attention, there's a huge problem.

It's not as "huge" as you make it out to be. People, including those serving in the military, are human; as such, they are going to sometimes succumb to the conditions they are in, the emotional drain, the exhaustion, and sometimes a few do the wrong thing - which is recognized and dealt with.

I shouldn't have to underline the oppression, abuse, and terror inflicted by the Taliban when criticizing the United States military because they're both in the wrong.

Yet you only go on and on about one. In this case, the Taliban, with it's outrage, is directly involved. Yet you go on and on only about the US military. Not just these four men, not just this incident, but the whole military - which is a "disgrace to humanity" - as you say nothing about the Taliban.

More to the point, if you're supposed to be occupying the moral high-ground, then having a systemic problem with these sorts of abuses absolutely destroys any claim to that whatsoever.

We're not "supposed to be," we most definitely are. Perhaps you should open your eyes and recognize that.