Northern Gateway a must?

[TimG]

Let the Chinese deal with the Saudis and lets refine and use our products here.

We already do. Ontario IMPORTS crude and refines it. It makes no difference if the crude comes from Saudis or Alberta. The economic benefit is EXACTLY The same.

Keep in mind that the raw material and product that we have left over can still be exported for more profit.

Again - nothing stopping Ontario refineries from doing that today with imported crude. They generally do not because the cost structures are very high but that is NOT going to change with Alberta crude unless you think Alberta should sell its crude to Ontario for less than the market price.

What I am suggesting is that our raw materials and natural resources should be used to help Canadians first,rest of the world second.

I am suggesting that your prescriptions do nothing to advance your stated goal. If you want to help Canadians then you should want to maximize the value of our resources by ensuring they can be sold to the highest bidder. Trying to create captive markets for Canadian suppliers hurts Canada in the long run. Edited August 6, 2012 by TimG

[WWWTT]

I am suggesting that your prescriptions do nothing to advance your stated goal. If you want to help Canadians then you should want to maximize the value of our resources by ensuring they can be sold to the highest bidder. Trying to create captive markets for Canadian suppliers hurts Canada in the long run.

Ya just like the meat packers helped the beef farmers of Canada during the mad cow disease crisis right?

While Canadian beef farmers were going bankrupt and losing their family farms,Canadian meat packers were making record profits and returning diddly!

When you let the corporations call the shots they will only do what is better for them,not Canadians!

WWWTT

[TimG]

Ya just like the meat packers helped the beef farmers of Canada during the mad cow disease crisis right?

A short term crisis. In the long run the farmers are much better off selling to the highest bidder.

[WWWTT]

A short term crisis. In the long run the farmers are much better off selling to the highest bidder.

Nope you are avoiding the core issue that is at the heart of the debate here.

The oil companies want everyone to jump through hoops to export oil and all the jobs that go with it to pad their CEO's bonuses.

I am saying that the government should eliminate the subsidies given to the oil companies and invest in keeping the benefit of the oil within Canada.

Corporations only care about their profit and not the overall benefit of Canada.

But somehow you are suggesting that CEO/corporate wealth relates to Canadian wealth and that is false.Not only false but foolish to believe.

WWWTT

[TimG]

I am saying that the government should eliminate the subsidies given to the oil companies and invest in keeping the benefit of the oil within Canada.

You really don't give up with this subsidy nonsense. I repeat there are no subsidies to oil companies in Canada. It is lie spread by environmentalists desperate to create villains.

Second, you have not established ANY benefit from "keeping the oil in Canada". All you are doing is showing that you have no grasp of basic economic concepts.

But somehow you are suggesting that CEO/corporate wealth relates to Canadian wealth and that is false.

A silly strawman. My argument has nothing to with corporate profits. It is about maximizing the value Canada can get from its resources (meaning royalties).

[waldo]

Oil companies are NOT subsidized so the savings are zippo.

don't eat that Elmer... that there's BS! BigOil receives a huuugge disproportionate percentage of government subsidy monies - no matter how hard you try to deny it... no matter how many times you trot out your 'no subsidy nonsense'.

This entire tax subsidy issue is made complicated because many of the enviro-yahoos don't understand accounting principals and think that any deduction is automatically a 'subsidy'.

speak to the WTO hand

, hey?

You really don't give up with this subsidy nonsense. I repeat there are no subsidies to oil companies in Canada. It is lie spread by environmentalists desperate to create villains.

nice wrinkle deflecting to... 'Canada only subsidies'. In any case, 2008 data from a report created by the International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD) --- Fossil Fuels – At What Cost? Government support for upstream oil activities in three Canadian provinces ... feel free to update/counter with more current data.

(note: subsidy level/dollar amounts would be considerably higher if coal subsidies were also included... this IISD report strictly focuses on oil subsidies):

Canadian federal and provincial governments provided $2.84 billion to support oil production in 2008. The federal government’s share of subsidies in 2008 was $1.38 billion. Within the provincial governments, Alberta was estimated at $1.05 billion, Saskatchewan at $327 million and Newfoundland & Labrador at $83 million. A total of 63 subsidy programs were identified. In most cases, the subsidies were intended to increase exploration and development through a mix of tax breaks and royalty reductions.

[blueblood]

Ya just like the meat packers helped the beef farmers of Canada during the mad cow disease crisis right?

While Canadian beef farmers were going bankrupt and losing their family farms,Canadian meat packers were making record profits and returning diddly!

When you let the corporations call the shots they will only do what is better for them,not Canadians!

WWWTT

What are you talking about? There is next to zero packing capacity in canada it all goes south. Even then the packers got hosed because they had inventory like crazy. Why do u think the packers put the pressure on bush jnr to get the border open?

All players in the beef industry took a bath, that's why I had a cattle firesale because cows didn't fit into my business model anymore.

[blueblood]

Keep doing what we are doing?

I thought that this thread was about building a pipeline?

Anyways in case you have not noticed we are losing jobs to China and the US.My proposal will help keep some of those jobs right here at home.

WWWTT

I could suggest those unemployed people dig holes one day and fill them up the next because that would be a more effecient use of money.

There are lots of jobs out west, maybe easterners could fill them instead of us having to go shopping overseas for temp workers.

[Wild Bill]

I could suggest those unemployed people dig holes one day and fill them up the next because that would be a more effecient use of money.

There are lots of jobs out west, maybe easterners could fill them instead of us having to go shopping overseas for temp workers.

A lot of young people in Ontario have gone out West. The problem is that much if not most of the unemployed here are older factory workers. Who wants a 50 year old who has done nothing but put bumpers on cars all his career?

The median age in factory jobs has been steadily creeping up for decades. With hiring freezes your work force just gets older.

Younger people are far more mobile. The idea of taking a few weeks or months to go out west and look for a job is not such a big deal For older folks with family responsibilities it is more of a logistics challenge.Plus there is a natural human tendency to think things will recover if you wait it out. Of course, things haven't recovered.

The government makes it worse with retraining programs when there are no jobs available in those fields anyway. Again, there is the problem of age. So there is a lot of false hope going on.

A big problem is also the image of what jobs are available out west. People here think all the jobs are in the oil fields. We see tv clips of husky oil field workers flipping huge lengths of heavy drill casing around. To a 50 year old laid off auto worker, it looks like the jobs are only for younger lads. He thinks he is just too old to handle a job out west!

In all the years I've lived in Ontario, I have never seen a tv commercial for jobs out west, or any sort of Job Fair aimed at the typical unemployed worker here in the East. It's like a big ship that needs deck hands complaining it can't get workers, while they are 10 miles out from shore and expect workers on land to not only hear about their needs by some sort of esp and also to have job applicants swim out to them, because there is no other way to get to their ship!

It is expensive for a laid off older factory worker to make a trip out west to look for a job. What if he can't get hired? He has spent money on lodging while he was looking and lost time in trying to find a job at home.

If he gets a job he has to worry about how secure it will be. He will have to sell his house in Ontario,buy something out west and then move his family. He will have to do a lot of research about the real estate market differences. A google shows that in many areas out west house prices are much higher than in Ontario. Can he afford to cover the difference?

What if the job he finds out west doesn't work out? He has spent a lot of time and money and is now even further in the hole!

I don't mean to sound totally negative but I think that many westerners have no idea about the challenges many unemployed in Ontario would face in moving out west. As I said, the bulk of Ontario's unemployed are in their 40's and 50's, not their 20's.

It always looks easy when you don't have to do it yourself!

[blueblood]

A lot of young people in Ontario have gone out West. The problem is that much if not most of the unemployed here are older factory workers. Who wants a 50 year old who has done nothing but put bumpers on cars all his career?

The median age in factory jobs has been steadily creeping up for decades. With hiring freezes your work force just gets older.

Younger people are far more mobile. The idea of taking a few weeks or months to go out west and look for a job is not such a big deal For older folks with family responsibilities it is more of a logistics challenge.Plus there is a natural human tendency to think things will recover if you wait it out. Of course, things haven't recovered.

The government makes it worse with retraining programs when there are no jobs available in those fields anyway. Again, there is the problem of age. So there is a lot of false hope going on.

A big problem is also the image of what jobs are available out west. People here think all the jobs are in the oil fields. We see tv clips of husky oil field workers flipping huge lengths of heavy drill casing around. To a 50 year old laid off auto worker, it looks like the jobs are only for younger lads. He thinks he is just too old to handle a job out west!

In all the years I've lived in Ontario, I have never seen a tv commercial for jobs out west, or any sort of Job Fair aimed at the typical unemployed worker here in the East. It's like a big ship that needs deck hands complaining it can't get workers, while they are 10 miles out from shore and expect workers on land to not only hear about their needs by some sort of esp and also to have job applicants swim out to them, because there is no other way to get to their ship!

It is expensive for a laid off older factory worker to make a trip out west to look for a job. What if he can't get hired? He has spent money on lodging while he was looking and lost time in trying to find a job at home.

If he gets a job he has to worry about how secure it will be. He will have to sell his house in Ontario,buy something out west and then move his family. He will have to do a lot of research about the real estate market differences. A google shows that in many areas out west house prices are much higher than in Ontario. Can he afford to cover the difference?

What if the job he finds out west doesn't work out? He has spent a lot of time and money and is now even further in the hole!

I don't mean to sound totally negative but I think that many westerners have no idea about the challenges many unemployed in Ontario would face in moving out west. As I said, the bulk of Ontario's unemployed are in their 40's and 50's, not their 20's.

It always looks easy when you don't have to do it yourself!

That depends on how bad people want jobs then. In my town we have guys of all wages who aren't employed in the ag sector making the drive west for their hitch. Some guys in their 40s and 50s who had problems logging or farming.

There is a lot of affordable housing in the small towns where a guy has to set up his base and drive out to work for his 4-5 weeks on.

That's funny because I see ads for saskatchewan bragging about their employment situation and the "benefits" to raising a family there. Heck the premier of SK went to ontario in the middle of the recession saying come west. The farm machinery "factories" we have out here are starving for workers and their inventory is SOLD OUT, they can't make machinery fast enough.

Nobody said it would be easy!

[Wild Bill]

That depends on how bad people want jobs then. In my town we have guys of all wages who aren't employed in the ag sector making the drive west for their hitch. Some guys in their 40s and 50s who had problems logging or farming.

There is a lot of affordable housing in the small towns where a guy has to set up his base and drive out to work for his 4-5 weeks on.

That's funny because I see ads for saskatchewan bragging about their employment situation and the "benefits" to raising a family there. Heck the premier of SK went to ontario in the middle of the recession saying come west. The farm machinery "factories" we have out here are starving for workers and their inventory is SOLD OUT, they can't make machinery fast enough.

Nobody said it would be easy!

No, that's not disputed. Still, some better advertising and information flow could make the process easier. Plus, the two income family has been a must here for a long, long time. With one partner working families can get by. If one goes out west the other has to quit their job when they follow, hoping they too can find a job.

Remember, Alberta and Saskatchewan are thousands of miles away. About the only exposure to what its like in Saskatchewan that Ontarioans have ever seen is Corner Gas! The chances of finding a decent job seem more iffy than they probably are.

To a westerner, it doesn't seem like a problem. He lives there! He knows what things are like! To an easterner, it's a lot more of an unknown. Unless he has family or friends out west to tell him the score, he can't help but be wary.

[waldo]

details, smetails!

several posts within this thread have detailed the passage complexities of the Douglas Channel... the shipping passage to/from Kitimat. Unsurprisingly, Enbridge has just wiped away those complexities in it's latest (just released) promo video on the Northern Gateway:

- the Enbridge 'sleight of hand' versus the actual topography of Douglas Channel! Oh my!

[dre]

details, smetails!

several posts within this thread have detailed the passage complexities of the Douglas Channel... the shipping passage to/from Kitimat. Unsurprisingly, Enbridge has just wiped away those complexities in it's latest (just released) promo video on the Northern Gateway:

- the Enbridge 'sleight of hand' versus the actual topography of Douglas Channel! Oh my!

Jesus...

[eyeball]

Jesus...

No...it's just Harper (spit).

Feds walk away from environmental assessments on almost 500 projects in B.C.

Stephen Harper’s Conservative government has washed its hands of environmental assessments of nearly 500 projects in B.C. as a result of a revised Canadian Environmental Assessment Act.

The 492 wide-ranging projects include gravel extraction on the lower Fraser River, run-of-river hydro projects and wind farms, bridge construction as well as demolition of the old Port Mann Bridge, shellfish aquaculture operations, hazardous-waste facilities and liquid-waste disposal.

Critics charge the environmental impacts of smaller projects add up and that the federal actions are putting the B.C. environment, especially fish habitat, at extreme risk.

The Northern Gateway Pipeline will cross some 1000 fish bearing water-courses on it's way to the Pacific Ocean.

Some fishermen hereabouts only got to fish salmon one day this summer. One day. That's about the most graphic indication I can think of that demonstrates just how dismally bad Canada's and BC's interests have been served to date by the scumbags in charge of DFO...and now this.

Personally I think it's high-time we dragged the politicians into the streets and guillotined a few. I'd say Ottawa is virtually and almost completely now out of any control whatsoever.

[wyly]

A lot of young people in Ontario have gone out West. The problem is that much if not most of the unemployed here are older factory workers. Who wants a 50 year old who has done nothing but put bumpers on cars all his career?

The government makes it worse with retraining programs when there are no jobs available in those fields anyway. Again, there is the problem of age. So there is a lot of false hope going on.

A big problem is also the image of what jobs are available out west. People here think all the jobs are in the oil fields. We see tv clips of husky oil field workers flipping huge lengths of heavy drill casing around. To a 50 year old laid off auto worker, it looks like the jobs are only for younger lads. He thinks he is just too old to handle a job out west!

yup if you're over 50 stay where you are because no one will hire you unless you want to be the greeter guy at home depot or a commissionaire job at $12 per hr, that'll be interesting adventure trying to live on $12 ph...if your 50+ and recently unemployed you're f**ked....

[Smallc]

- the Enbridge 'sleight of hand' versus the actual topography of Douglas Channel! Oh my!

Oh boy....

[wyly]

details, smetails!

several posts within this thread have detailed the passage complexities of the Douglas Channel... the shipping passage to/from Kitimat. Unsurprisingly, Enbridge has just wiped away those complexities in it's latest (just released) promo video on the Northern Gateway:

- the Enbridge 'sleight of hand' versus the actual topography of Douglas Channel! Oh my!

but enbridge has stated that it will add $500 million for improved pipeline safety....hmmmm, so does that mean that if there wasn't the controversy and concern enbridge wouldn't have bothered spending an additional $500 million?...probably not...

[waldo]

the dangers of dilbit - diluted bitumen:

NYT: Crude, Dirty and Dangerous

Last month, the National Transportation Safety Board issued a report that was harshly critical of the federal government’s regulation and oversight of pipeline safety following a spill of more than one million gallons of dilbit into the Kalamazoo River in Michigan in 2010. The accident underscored not only how different dilbit is from conventional oil, but how unprepared we are for the impending flood of imports.

After the dilbit gushed into the river, it began separating into its constituent parts. The heavy bitumen sank to the river bottom, leaving a mess that is still being cleaned up. Meanwhile, the chemical additives evaporated, creating a foul smell that lingered for days. People reported headaches, dizziness and nausea. No one could say with certainty what they should do. Federal officials at the scene didn’t know until weeks later that the pipeline was carrying dilbit, because federal law doesn’t require pipeline operators to reveal that information.

The 2010 spill could have been worse if it had reached Lake Michigan, as authorities originally feared it might. Lake Michigan supplies drinking water to more than 12 million people. Fortunately, the damage was restricted to a tributary creek and about 36 miles of the Kalamazoo, used primarily for recreation, not drinking water.

This close call hasn’t deterred the energy industry from announcing plans to build or repurpose more than 10,000 miles of pipelines to carry dilbit to the United States and global markets. That includes the controversial Canada-to-Texas Keystone XL pipeline, which would pass through the Ogallala aquifer, the nation’s largest drinking water aquifer. It supplies drinking water for eight states and about 30 percent of the groundwater used for irrigation.

[waldo]

yes, most certainly... Enbridge has extensive experience in dealing with the many past and ever continuing number of it's pipeline ruptures!

what's this? I thought Harper Conservatives... Steven Harper himself... pledged that a decision on Northern Gateway would be one based on "Science"!!! Oh, really!

Enbridge cleanup plan does not take bitumen into account

Enbridge Inc.’s response plan for a potential spill of Northern Gateway oil into the pristine waters off British Columbia doesn’t take into account the unique oil mixture the pipeline would actually carry, documents show.

Enbridge officials confirm the spill-response plan they have filed with the federal review panel studying the pipeline proposal deals with conventional crude, not specifically the diluted bitumen the pipeline will carry.

.

However, documents obtained under access to information show a scientist at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans argued vigorously for a chance to do more research.

Kenneth Lee submitted a research proposal last December saying the matter requires further study because Enbridge’s plan had “strong limitations due to inaccurate inputs.”

“The Northern Gateway pipeline proposal lacks key information on the chemical composition of the reference oils used in the hypothetical spill models,” wrote Dr. Lee, head of DFO’s Centre for Offshore Oil Gas and Energy Research, or COOGER.

Dr. Lee sought approval to conduct a series of studies through to 2015, when final tests on the “toxic effects of reference oils to marine species” would be completed.

That deadline suggests the results would come too late for the Northern Gateway review panel as it reviews the environmental impact of the pipeline. Its hearings end next April and the panel reports back to government by the end of next year.

The Fisheries Department did not respond to questions about whether Dr. Lee’s group was given the go-ahead to do the research.

Dr. Lee was informed this spring that his job and the research centre he runs is at risk of being eliminated as a result of federal budget cuts.

Reached by phone, Dr. Lee said he was not authorized to comment on the proposal but confirmed that he and his staff have been notified their positions are on a list of positions that could be cut.

“We were on an affected [position] list at one point. And we’re still on that affected list, but COOGER will still exist.”

Dr. Lee is an internationally renowned expert on oil spills and was tapped last year to join a U.S. scientific committee studying the aftermath of the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil spill.

[pete t teepee]

Northern Gateway a must? It's a red herring. Dead in the water IMO. If you follow the evolution of Keystone XL, it looks something like this:

Harper: Tar sands??

Obama: Too dirty man..jeez!

(passage of time..peak oil..instability...concern)

Harper: Keystone XL??

Obama: Its DIRTY and HUGE...n stuff...

Harper: Hey China, Tar sands??

China: YES PLEASE!!!!!!

(republican outrage!!)

Obama under duress: Okay can we build a piece of it or something C'MON congress damnit build that section at least..

(stalling...stalling)

Harper: Hey China, want some tar sands oil company??

(entire american administration group huddle to figure a way to sell UGH!...tar sands to american public)

Which brings us to present day.

So ya..red herring IMO. Even if it weren't, BC won't have it. Majority doesn't want it, or the tax revenue or the token handfull of jobs. We aren't exactly sittin pretty here economically speaking so if we can do without the revenue for a greater good, anyone can. This is called integrity. I imagine someone will pipe in about us not having a choice; that it's a federal matter. They said that about the HST. Deal signed with the feds is a done deal they said. We made history undoing that deal. If push comes to shove, you can't lock up the majority of BC. The logistics alone are utterly impossible. If one wants to start spewing about tollgates and the like, I have a better idea. How about we simply erect a giant electric fence up the border. We'll eke out an existence in our forests, streams, lakes and ocean and Alberta can play on it's side in it's vast fields of brown heavy metal dirt that wrap around the curvature of the earth. Say, maybe they could plant some of that money in lieu of grass wait...hundreds are brown too...rats But Hey! just think of all the wigs you can buy with your oil tax revenue, to remedy your arsenic induced hairloss. You'll have so much tarsands money from the Trans Canada pipeline, no Albertan will ever be wanting for a wig for the rest of their brief lifespan. WHOA!! Ima open me a wig store emporium in Edmonton!! CHA CHING!! Okay nevermind, just googled it and apparently an oil exec. already has that gig nailed down. guess I'm stuck here livin on salmon (blech)