Women's Rights !

[belfred]

For some time now I have been asking myself where I

truly stand on the issue of right to life. I am concerned with the rights of the unborn, the rights of the very old, and the rights of women.

-a woman with child has every right to exercise her option;to become pregnant or not. If she freely chooses the former, thats her choice. End of story. I'm firmly opposed to her being given a further choice ,if, she intends to end the life of her unborn. Thats not fair.

-the very old are in real danger of death before their time.

Increasingly, and because avarice is spreading rapidly

through our world , care for the old until natural death is

viewed by increasing numbers of care givers and politicians, as a prohibitive and unnecessary cost.

-Euthanasia is creeping slowly, but with determination

into the elderly care programs. It's not fair to impose this

on persons unable to fend for themselves.

-Praise be to our women of the world.

[caesar]

Women/ young girls do not always CHOOSE to become pregnant. Sometimes birth control fails or the young girl is just not too wise. I would not like to see those with these accidental pregnancies to become desperate and go to backstreet abortionists as they did in my day. Nor do I think they should be required to go through with a pregnancy that will produce a child with serious health problems.

I would have no problem with encouraging and supporting them through a pregnancy to allow the child to be put up for adoption. Encouraged not pressured!

[belfred]

Thoughtful reply Caesar. I believe, as you, the 'fire' of young people delivered into the arms of passion contribute to many pregnancies.

Perhaps if parental education was given in those early formative years 'avoidance', abstention, would be more clearly understood by the impassioned couple.

Fear of having the 'child' , losing face in the family home, or giving up profitable occupations most often are reasons for bringing termination to a pregnancy.

But give the unborn a fighting chance ! One choice only please. If your pregnant you have had your one choice!

[August1991]

I believe, as you, the 'fire' of young people delivered into the arms of passion contribute to many pregnancies.

This only happens to young people?

avarice is spreading rapidly through our world

Of course, avarice was not a problem several thousand years ago.

Please get off your high horse and be more realistic in your posts when discussing a question that is real to those who must choose.

The fact of the matter is that any attempt to forbid abortions would create more havoc, pain, suffering and immorality than allowing abortions does. The issue of abortion must be seen pragmatically.

[maplesyrup]

belfred....check out the Christian Heritage Party!

[belfred]

I believe, as you, the 'fire' of young people delivered into the arms of passion contribute to many pregnancies.

This only happens to young people?

avarice is spreading rapidly through our world

Of course, avarice was not a problem several thousand years ago.

Please get off your high horse and be more realistic in your posts when discussing a question that is real to those who must choose.

The fact of the matter is that any attempt to forbid abortions would create more havoc, pain, suffering and immorality than allowing abortions does. The issue of abortion must be seen pragmatically.

August1991 - Evidently, I touched a nerve in your emotional system. Not intended I assure you. As for the high horse comment, I assume your elevating your displeasure with the general thrust of my comments. That's fair.

I didn't mean to imply only 'young people' are fools rushing in, in the heat of the moment. Let me assure you the remarks are inclusive of all so smitten.

As for several thousand years before my time, I can hardly offer you a definitive reply regarding avarice. But you knew that didn't you?

There are several excellent alternatives to abortion. I, for one, recommend women in unwanted pregnancy thoroughly explore them. It's not that difficult to do.

I have the greatest empathy for any woman in an unwanted state of being with child. I wish I could be more help personally.

[maplesyrup]

To all the men commenting on abortion:

"MYOB" :angry:

[Hugo]

To all the men commenting on abortion:

"MYOB"

That doesn't work in paternity lawsuits, does it?

[caesar]

Well in a pregnancy; have you seen any man with his body all bloated and going through the pain of childbirth. If we did there would be many fewer needs for abortion.

[caesar]

[quote): Perhaps if parental education was given in those early formative years 'avoidance', abstention, would be more clearly understood by the impassioned couple. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets blame the parents and schools; as usual. How many teenagers really listen to their parents. It is a time of life when hormones rage, common sense may lag; they have a need to declare independence but do not always have the confidence to do it on their own. Lots of bravado but not always real confidence; therefore they do tend to cling to peers usually one of the opposite sex.

[belfred]

To all the men commenting on abortion:

"MYOB"      :angry: 

maplesyrup :

To the contrary, we are minding our business. Your quick to remind us of this fact in a court of separation. Lets not be so selective as to issues males may or may not become embroiled in.

Disagree if you must, thats a given. But don't attempt personal censorship on anyone!

[Big Blue Machine]

Abortion isn't a woman's right to choose. It's simple.

[maplesyrup]

I am glad you men do not support women's rights in our society.

At least it confirms for me that the Harper Conservatives will never make it. As Canadians begin to really understand what makes these Cons tick, look for that party to lose support in the next election. I just can't wait for their policy convention.

[caesar]

Ironically, it IS usually the male who quickly demands that the girl get an abortion. Perhaps if more were more supporting there would be less pressure on the girl to choose an abortion.

Put their money where their mouths are; keep you know what where it belongs.

The poor girl can't say; "How do I know it's mine"

[Cartman]

To all the men commenting on abortion:

"MYOB"

Though I think you are right, I am still gonna respond. Is this really an issue anymore? Nobody enjoys the existence of abortion, but it will exist whether the state legitimizes it or not. It is just a matter of whether they are performed in a safer or less safe manner. Any alternatives will simply violate women's rights. The fact that this was even brought up demonstrates that women are still not the social equals of men.

[playfullfellow]

Fortunately I have never been in a position where abortion was one of the choices given. Before we had kids of our own, I was prochoice. Once we had kids and felt the joy and pride they bring to ones life, I was split on the decision. Abortion is here to stay wether we like it or not.

Why aren't we focusing changing the system a bit. Why are prochoice people against a woman getting counselling on alternative measures to abortion? That is what I can not understand, where is the harm? I am not saying we limit abortion but seek out alternatives where possible. Once through a counselling session, then the woman can decide. There are hundreds of good people who would love to adopt a child.

Why should men not have a say? The child carries half of our genes. I know it is the womans body but why do men not have a choice if they are willing to accept all responsibility?

[caesar]

" Why are prochoice people against a woman getting counselling on alternative measures to abortion?"

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Because often it is not counselling; it is preaching and pressuring and attempting to make them feel guilty. Those who want counselling will find it available Now

[maplesyrup]

Why aren't we focusing changing the system a bit. Why are prochoice people against a woman getting counselling on alternative measures to abortion? That is what I can not understand, where is the harm? I am not saying we limit abortion but seek out alternatives where possible. Once through a counselling session, then the woman can decide. There are hundreds of good people who would love to adopt a child.

Why should men not have a say? The child carries half of our genes. I know it is the womans body but why do men not have a choice if they are willing to accept all responsibility?

History has something to do with it. How long has it been in the scheme of things when women were chattel, owned by their husbands, like any other product on the shelf. Women have shed their shackles, let's not try to reimpose them.

In the real world I presume most pregancies are discussed between the woman and the man involved. But ultimately if there is a disagreement, the woman has to chose, after all, it is her body.

I have every confidence that overall women will make the best choices for herself, her relationship and the prospective child

[Tawasakm]

I understand the argument that men should "butt out" so to speak. We are not the ones who have to experience a pregnancy. I do, however, believe that men should have legitimate input into the question. It may be that the child is ours, or that the pregnant woman is a friend/relative etc who's concerns and pains we share (to whatever extent possible). In so far as a mans input is the result of concern for the pregnant woman and/or the unborn child I would hate to see it dismissed so completley. Women need to have more power in the decision making process then men, I think, but not the power to exclude men from the decision making process.

  Increasingly, and because avarice is spreading rapidly through our world , care for the old until natural death is

viewed by increasing numbers of care givers and politicians, as a prohibitive and unnecessary cost.

-Euthanasia is creeping slowly, but with determination

into the elderly care programs. It's not fair to impose this

on persons unable to fend for themselves.

The quote is from Belfred (I apologise for not quoting him properly I will find out how to do so soonest).

In regard to this comment about creeping euthanasia I would say that medicine kept a couple of my relatives alive long past the point they wished to keep living. Perhaps past the point where you could define them as alive still in every sense. What did you mean by a persons natural time for death? And are there not compassionate grounds for euthanasia on occasion?

[Alliance Fanatic]

I am glad you men do not support women's rights in our society.

At least it confirms for me that the Harper Conservatives will never make it. As Canadians begin to really understand what makes these Cons tick, look for that party to lose support in the next election. I just can't wait for their policy convention.   

Well in the last ten years, the Canadian Alliance/Reform party has'nt supported policies that would make abortion illegal.

Hey remember world war 2, it was none of our business when Jew's were getting sent to concentration camps either.

So Maplesyrup if you were having a child with your girlfirend, and you can't wait for this baby to be born, you would have no problem if your girlfriend decided to TERMINATE your child. I doubt it, so yeah abortion does affect men too. Most studies have shown that after a woman has an abortion they have psychological effects afterwards.

[caesar]

I would believe that most men ARE consulted about the abortion. That most times it is the male that demands the abortion. Most men that would demand a female should not abort a child may be wanting to have control over the woman for years to come through the child. That most are not able and prepared to raise the child.

The woman/girl may wish the abortion rather than have a child by an abusive or control freak partner; that child would furnish the man with a hold over her through the child. In fact, the female may be afraid to tell the man about being pregnant; fearing his wrath and abuse.

The female is the one who should make the decision; she is the one whose life would be most affected. Counselling should be offered but not ordered.

[Tawasakm]

Most men that would demand a female should not abort a child may be wanting to have control over the woman for years to come through the child.

I would have thought that there were many reasons to ask/demand that a foetus not be aborted - religious beliefs, a genuine desire to have a child, concern for the mother/baby to name a few. I realise the reasons won't be universally altruistic but surely there are many reasons to want to have a baby? I'm prepared to be corrected here if you have research to back you up - at this point this is conjecture from me.

The female is the one who should make the decision; she is the one whose life would be most affected.

I agree that the person who is actually pregnant must have the final choice. However she is not the only person affected so I don't agree that others shouldn't be included in the decision making process. Although I am not entirely sure if that is what you are saying?

[caesar]

I am saying it should not be mandatory to consult the father. There may be valid reasons for not doing so. I am just talking from 62 years of experience; I am sure there are occasions when the male does have valid reasons for wanting the child and that it is the female who does not for her own selfish reasons. However, I do not believe this to be a large number; especially when it comes to young teenagers.

Married women should certainly have the consent of their husbands unless they have valid grounds not to do so; abusive or controlling relationship from which she is seriously contemplating ending.

[Tawasakm]

Thankyou for your clarification caesar.

  I am saying it should not be mandatory to consult the father. There may be valid reasons for not doing so.

There surely are. Women do become pregnant through sexual assault. In such instances the victim must surely be protected absolutely from any further contact with the criminal (I hope the criminal is rotting in jail at this point).

However I do think there are valid ethical considerations in situations other then this. I do think there should be a system in place where the father should at least be consulted. I can not in good concience question a womans right to final determination but I do question a womans right to make a decision completely alone. By this I also mean that a person should receive some kind of counselling aswell - by which I mean education as to possible effects etc and not sermonising. An abortion is a serious thing and so I'd like to know that anybody who chooses that road is doing so with eyes wide open and not blindly - without really knowing the consequences of the act.

Of course there is also the question of whether or not putting people through compulsory counselling will drive some to "backyard" abortions instead. Perhaps education should occur in schools instead?

[caesar]

No mandatory counselling; it could be abused or demoralizing for someone who has put serious thought into her decision.

Other than in a marriage or via some other contract; AI believe it is the woman's choice on whether or not to consult the man. There are more reasons than sexual assault or date rape.

They may as well leave it at that; otherwise she need only to say she does not know which man is the father; even though it may be a lie. However, she would have tohumiliate herself for whatever reasons for not wishing to tell the man/