Any Bleeding Hearts Against This?

[cybercoma]

OMG! We disagree!

What I find bothersome about her is ...

The two girls had never met, but Ms Todorovic regarded Ms. Rengel as a rival. Over the course of several months and numerous online chats, Ms Todorovic cajoled David Bagshaw

to commit the crime, threatening to break up with him if he didn’t do it.

She'd never met the girl, but planned her murder and continued her plan over several months. She promised sex to bf if he did it, and had sex with him after the deed was done.

There are too many unanswered questions, and a complete lack of remorse so far.

I think the bf fits your description of a teen consumed by his passions, but I'm not so sure about her: She seemed quite cold and calculating to me.

I think there's more to the story than "model daughter".

Perhaps we'll learn more after the appeal is over, if she is then (legally) free to show remorse.

I'd be curious what her former classmates and fellow inmates had to say about her, as they are more likely to be aware of any manipulative behaviour.

I'm not saying what she did isn't wrong or that she didn't deserve first degree. She plotted and carried out a murder by coercing her bf to do it. However, that alone does not make a person a sociopath or a psychopath. These are very specific psychological designations. She may very well be these things and until she gets into treatment or is diagnosed we won't know. I just don't think she fits those things. The judge even said himself that she's not "anti-social." Both psychopathy and sociopathy are defined by antisocial behaviour. To be clear, a single incident doens't make a person antisocial. If she had many incidents of breaking the law, not being able to maintain relationship, etc, then it would seem more likely that she fits the diagnoses for sociopathy or psychopathy. However, the no one can be diagnosed as having antisocial personality disorder before the age of 18. Someone that's 15 would be diagnosed with conduct disorder. Anyway, I'm just talking from a purely clinical standpoint here. Strictly speaking, we don't know. My hunch is that she doesn't actually suffer from these problems. Moreover, if she did suffer from psychological issues, then prison is not the place for her. She should be sent to Penetanguishene, rather than a prison. I agree that she's a killer, but I'm disagreeing with the psychological diagnoses people are trying to level on her. It makes us feel better when we think that someone who would do this is sick. She wasn't sick. She was a spiteful teenager that wanted someone killed. Near as I can tell she was fully responsible for her actions.

For more information on psychopathy and sociopathy check out these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

[jacee]

I'm not saying what she did isn't wrong or that she didn't deserve first degree. She plotted and carried out a murder by coercing her bf to do it. However, that alone does not make a person a sociopath or a psychopath. These are very specific psychological designations. She may very well be these things and until she gets into treatment or is diagnosed we won't know. I just don't think she fits those things. The judge even said himself that she's not "anti-social." Both psychopathy and sociopathy are defined by antisocial behaviour. To be clear, a single incident doens't make a person antisocial. If she had many incidents of breaking the law, not being able to maintain relationship, etc, then it would seem more likely that she fits the diagnoses for sociopathy or psychopathy. However, the no one can be diagnosed as having antisocial personality disorder before the age of 18. Someone that's 15 would be diagnosed with conduct disorder. Anyway, I'm just talking from a purely clinical standpoint here. Strictly speaking, we don't know. My hunch is that she doesn't actually suffer from these problems. Moreover, if she did suffer from psychological issues, then prison is not the place for her. She should be sent to Penetanguishene, rather than a prison. I agree that she's a killer, but I'm disagreeing with the psychological diagnoses people are trying to level on her. It makes us feel better when we think that someone who would do this is sick. She wasn't sick. She was a spiteful teenager that wanted someone killed. Near as I can tell she was fully responsible for her actions.

For more information on psychopathy and sociopathy check out these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocia, andl_personality_disorder

Ya I'm not qualified to diagnose and may well be wrong about that.

What makes me uneasy about her is her flat affect and apparent complete lack of remorse. Something really wrong there imo.

There's a lot more detail in this article.

http://www.torontolife.com/features/last-days-stefanie-rengel/?pageno=1

[Boges]

Rehabilitation. It's a difficult concept for some people but the first step is dispensing with the hate. Then it becomes much easier to understand. People and fetuses are not born evil, it's learned from living in a sick society and that society then has the responsibility of reversing the evil it has done. If that got through to you then we should talk about it further. If not then I don't think we have anything to talk about.

Bear with me a little too, I'm still stinging a bit from the 'bleeding hearts' insult.

So if I don't acknowledge that society is to blame for violent criminal behaviour then you refuse to engage in any discussion about what exactly rehabilitation as opposed to say punishment for a crime.

Excellent way to debate.

[monty16]

So if I don't acknowledge that society is to blame for violent criminal behaviour then you refuse to engage in any discussion about what exactly rehabilitation as opposed to say punishment for a crime.

Excellent way to debate.

To be honest boges, you got it about right. Some debates are non-starters with me. If you wish to debate with me further then you are going to have to come to a position at which I would consider a debate to be somewhat worthwhile. For a Canadian to debate the pros and cons of the US system is no longer reasonable in the 21st. century in my opinion. Unless the Canadian lives in Alberta of course and then any ugly fantasy is possible.

[Guest Manny]

To be honest boges, you got it about right. Some debates are non-starters with me. If you wish to debate with me further then you are going to have to come to a position at which I would consider a debate to be somewhat worthwhile. For a Canadian to debate the pros and cons of the US system is no longer reasonable in the 21st. century in my opinion. Unless the Canadian lives in Alberta of course and then any ugly fantasy is possible.

Wow, Dude! I Love You

[Guest Manny]

I'll not bother to jump into gathering evidence right now until I find out if you are sincere or not.

I can save you a whole lot of time...

[monty16]

Well thank you Manny and I think I'm going to come to learn to love you too!

[Boges]

To be honest boges, you got it about right. Some debates are non-starters with me. If you wish to debate with me further then you are going to have to come to a position at which I would consider a debate to be somewhat worthwhile. For a Canadian to debate the pros and cons of the US system is no longer reasonable in the 21st. century in my opinion. Unless the Canadian lives in Alberta of course and then any ugly fantasy is possible.

Well clearly you've read this thread incorrectly then. I'm not saying that we should adopt a US system. I'm not even saying the American justice system is good.

We're discussing a case in Ontario of a 15 year old that was tried and convicted as an adult for first degree murder and I was curious if people thought that the denial of her request to stay in a youth facility past the age of 20 was good or bad.

Ontario is the same province that has given Paul Bernardo a sentence of life in prison with no chance of parole. Are you say that in order to debate this issue with you, I'd have to concede that someone like Paul Bernardo is a victim or our society and should be rehabilitated?

Is the treatment of Bernardo your idea of "American Justice"?

What about a nation like Norway? Should it treat Andreas Brevik as someone who should be rehabilitated?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Boges

[monty16]

Well clearly boges, you're not keeping up with me. 'Clearly', I am not the least bit interested in entertaining any ideas that are even remotely similar to what is happening in the land of the gun to our south. So let's make it simple for you. Rehabilitation is the only socially responsible route to take with a 19 year old. Even most third world countries have that one figured out by now. To suggest anything else is just not on my radar. In fact I find it quite repulsive and ignorant!

[monty16]

The ironic thing about this whole thing is that some people would take a 4 year old baby who has accidentally blew away his daddy with his daddy's sixgun and put the baby in jail for the crime. Then when that baby reached the age of 19 they would find him guilty of murder and subject him to a lethal injection for the crime of first degree murder.

No, don't scoff at what I say, it's true. Never underestimate the evilness and ugliness of the hardcore christian. They will readily and easily find a way to accuse a child of being possessed by the devil. And they'll make it stick too!

Yep, selfsame rabid righties who would accuse stem cell researchers of genocide. Go figure!

[Wild Bill]

To be honest boges, you got it about right. Some debates are non-starters with me. If you wish to debate with me further then you are going to have to come to a position at which I would consider a debate to be somewhat worthwhile. For a Canadian to debate the pros and cons of the US system is no longer reasonable in the 21st. century in my opinion. Unless the Canadian lives in Alberta of course and then any ugly fantasy is possible.

Is it your position that rehabilitation ALWAYS works?What about a Clifford Olsen or Charles Ing? Or a Paul Bernardo?

[Michael Hardner]

Is the treatment of Bernardo your idea of "American Justice"?

We have "Canadian Justice".

Sorry that was a typo. Should read: "Canadian: just ice."

[Moonlight Graham]

sounds like both she and her boyfriend are complete sociopaths. Sorry, I did nothing of this sort when I was 15, not even when I was 7. 15 is young but you aren't a complete idiot at that age, and neither at 17.

[jbg]

It's a no brainer jbg, but I'll not bother to jump into gathering evidence right now until I find out if you are sincere or not. Too many times on forums like this I have wasted time trying to prove something to numbskulls who are totally oblivious to reality.

I myself have worked at a camp for emotionally disturbed children. Now, I am a bankruptcy lawyer and my profession is all about second chances.

I honestly think a small percentage of these hardened criminals can be rehabilitated. I also think, as cruel as it is, society is unlikely to devote the professional resources necessary to identify those few and make them flower.

Remember, Jack London with White Fang was a novel, and White Fang was an animal.

[jbg]

Bear with me a little too, I'm still stinging a bit from the 'bleeding hearts' insult.

Norman Mailer sprang an author named Abbott from jail. Mailer felt he was a talented writer, had a future, and had been rehabilitated.

Abbott went to a restaurant for a meal. Maybe the waitress was a bit snippy, but she didn't deserve to die when Abbott snapped. Tell me, whose life is worth more, Abbott's or the waitress and the Bini-Bon Cafe?

[dre]

I think she needs to do about 10 years. I would want more if she hadnt been so young. And yeah... it makes sense to move her to "grown up" jail once shes to old for the juvenile jail.

[Guest American Woman]

I honestly don't believe she's a sociopath. I think she was a sick teenager, consumed by the passions of her relationships. When it comes to relationships and love affairs, people do really stupid things, even adults. Obviously, she deserves to be punished for manipulating her bf with sex to go and kill that poor girl, but I'm not sure that she would be a serious threat to society still. None of us are the same person we were when we were 15. I don't imagine it's any different with her now that she's heading into her 20s.

It could be very different if she has a psychological disorder. Furthermore, "really stupid things" and "plotting murder" are two very different things. None of us are the same person we were when we were 15, but none of us plotted to murder, and actually had someone carry it out, either.

I have no idea how you can "honestly believe she's not a sociopath." Even a psychologist/psychiatrist wouldn't know without interviewing and studying her; without examining her. You continue saying "[you're] not sure that she would be a serious threat to society still" which means you're also not sure that she wouldn't be. Generally, if I'm not sure if something is a danger or not, especially when the danger is death, I'm smart enough to realize it's not worth the risk.

An interesting read:

...the sociopath’s defining characteristic is a lack of conscience, empathy and remorse; this gives way to a cold and calculating personality. Reportedly, intelligent and adaptive sociopaths do quite well as salesmen, executives, attorneys, and academics. A sociopath in short is somebody who does not give a damn about you but can put on a good show to get what they want.

Inside the Mind of a Sociopath

I just don't think she fits those things. The judge even said himself that she's not "anti-social." Both psychopathy and sociopathy are defined by antisocial behaviour.

The judge, quite frankly, is not an expert in this area, which is why "expert witnesses" are called to testify. Psychiatrists who examined her at the time of her sentencing noted she had “a striking lack of empathy” and “remorselessness.”

anti-social

: Hostile to or disruptive of the established social order; marked by or engaging in behavior that violates accepted mores:

gangs engaging in vandalism and other antisocial behavior.

contrary or injurious to the interests of society in general

I think people generally think of anti-social as a loner, shy, not having friends, but that's just one definition.

Until this girl agrees to therapy, I can't imagine assuming she has changed or that she could be rehabilitated.

Edited December 24, 2011 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

The title of this thread is just an insult to morally responsible people who feel a social obligation toward rehabilitation of criminals rather than just breeding worse criminals. That's what the US is all about and the reason why their country is infested with hardened criminals. Also ther reason why they have many times more persons incarcerated per capita than socially responsible countries.

Ah, yes. Let's make it about the U.S. And by all means, do base the Canadian justice system on the "we are not Americans" mentality. Perhaps you could get rid of prisons altogether. Just think how "we are not Americans!" your justice system would be then. *thumbs up*

[cybercoma]

sounds like both she and her boyfriend are complete sociopaths. Sorry, I did nothing of this sort when I was 15, not even when I was 7. 15 is young but you aren't a complete idiot at that age, and neither at 17.

What did she do though? Used sex to get him to kill another girl. I'm not even sure why he would humour that, let alone carry it out. She did a terrible thing, but she's certainly not a sociopath. Even according to the judge, she did not show any sort of antisocial behaviour aside from this incident. We need to be more careful about using terms like sociopath or psychopath. These are mental illnesses that are included in the DSM for psychiatry. If she is a sociopath, then she can't be criminally responsible. She's fully responsible for coercing another person into murdering someone she didn't even know personally. Of that, I'm certain.

[cybercoma]

, if I'm not sure if something is a danger or not, especially when the danger is death, I'm smart enough to realize it's not worth the risk.

And that's why I haven't one advocated for her to be released from prison. In fact, I said I was surprised she wasn't transferred to adult prison sooner. I didn't realize someone could be in the youth facility until they were 20.

...the sociopath’s defining characteristic is a lack of conscience, empathy and remorse; this gives way to a cold and calculating personality. Reportedly, intelligent and adaptive sociopaths do quite well as salesmen, executives, attorneys, and academics. A sociopath in short is somebody who does not give a damn about you but can put on a good show to get what they want.

Inside the Mind of a Sociopath

He's conflating sociopath with psychopath. He's describing one half the psychopathy test. A sociopath must show an entire lifestyle that is "socially deviant." One incident does not make a lifestyle of social deviance. The judge acknowledge that she was not "antiscoial", which would have at least got us part of the way to demonstrating a lifestyle of social deviance.

The judge, quite frankly, is not an expert in this area, which is why "expert witnesses" are called to testify. Psychiatrists who examined her at the time of her sentencing noted she had “a striking lack of empathy” and “remorselessness.”

anti-social

: Hostile to or disruptive of the established social order; marked by or engaging in behavior that violates accepted mores:

gangs engaging in vandalism and other antisocial behavior.

contrary or injurious to the interests of society in general

I think people generally think of anti-social as a loner, shy, not having friends, but that's just one definition.

Until this girl agrees to therapy, I can't imagine assuming she has changed or that she could be rehabilitated.

I didn't say she has changed. I said she may have changed, while others have said that there's absolutely no way she can be rehabilitated or there's no way she has changed. I'm saying that we can't know either way, but that it seems highly unlikely that she suffers from a diagnosable mental disorder the likes of psychopathy. If she does suffer from a disorder, the defense can argue that she's not criminally responsible due to mental illness. I don't think that's the case. I think she's fully responsible for what happened. I'm also not stupid enough to honestly believe she's going to get out of prison and go on a murderous rampage, killing random people. She dreamt up a good reason to have that other girl killed and she found a willing puppet to carry it out. I don't think she poses a threat to society more generally, like say a pedophile would. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to children and no amount of therapy is going to change them. You don't "treat" homosexuality or heterosexuality with therapy. Likewise, I don't think there's any hope of changing pedophiles. Edited December 24, 2011 by cybercoma

[jbg]

I think she needs to do about 10 years. I would want more if she hadnt been so young. And yeah... it makes sense to move her to "grown up" jail once shes to old for the juvenile jail.

I happen to agree with you on that. Plus closely monitored parole after for a long time.

And perhaps if successful, no criminal record. I am of a view that a 15 year old is very different from an adult.

[Guest American Woman]

I happen to agree with you on that. Plus closely monitored parole after for a long time.

And perhaps if successful, no criminal record. I am of a view that a 15 year old is very different from an adult.

I am of a view that a 15 year old is very different from an adult.

Then I can only assume that you feel the same way about Omar Khadr, and I don't recall getting that from you.

[monty16]

I myself have worked at a camp for emotionally disturbed children. Now, I am a bankruptcy lawyer and my profession is all about second chances.

I honestly think a small percentage of these hardened criminals can be rehabilitated. I also think, as cruel as it is, society is unlikely to devote the professional resources necessary to identify those few and make them flower.

Remember, Jack London with White Fang was a novel, and White Fang was an animal.

There's wisdom in what you say and so credit is due. However, when you say society is unlikely you are talking more about the US screwed up system. In Canada society is much more likely to devote the necessary services. And so the US pays the price many times over for it's lack of attention to the problem. I also repeat, it's got a lot to do with the christian dogma in the US and it's rabid attitude toward punishment. A worthwhile exercise would be in investigating how christianity poisons the US system. We could look at systems where incarceration rates are very low and we would most likely find far less belief in sky fairies in those countries. Or Americans could just rule that out and not care. The latter is most likely.

[monty16]

Norman Mailer sprang an author named Abbott from jail. Mailer felt he was a talented writer, had a future, and had been rehabilitated.

Abbott went to a restaurant for a meal. Maybe the waitress was a bit snippy, but she didn't deserve to die when Abbott snapped. Tell me, whose life is worth more, Abbott's or the waitress and the Bini-Bon Cafe?

And then immediately after saying something sensible in your previous post you turn around and relate an isolated case to us in order to make the opposite point. This is the trouble with the US attitude. Those people will search for examples such as this in order to influence the small minds of christians and the christians will just eagerly eat it all up.

Of course rehabilitation doesn't work all the time and it's inane to suggest it does. That shouldn't even need to be said but apparently it does need to be said around here!

[jbg]

I am of a view that a 15 year old is very different from an adult.

Then I can only assume that you feel the same way about Omar Khadr, and I don't recall getting that from you.

True, but there's a difference between emotional disturbance and generations of acculturation.