Laws, wars, protests and ANGRY OLD UNCLES

[Shwa]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

That's right. Typical social engineering from the rabid right wing.

[cybercoma]

I doubt this guy exists, and even if he does, he is such an anomaly that it isn't worth discussing.

It absolutely is worth discussing! It's the very fact that this person could exist that makes mandatory minimums such a huge problem. They eliminate judicial discrection that allows judges to consider individual circumstances. More insidious than that is the fact that mandatory minimum legislation in the US often results in the prosecutors forcing accused parties to plead guilty to lesser charges to avoid mandatory minimums, without actually going to trial. It's not just the mandatory minimum sentences that fill up the prisons, but this unchecked power that can be wielded by the prosecution will fill up the prisons by eliminating judicial discretion for circumstances.

[cybercoma]

Or people who cook meth?

If you've ever drank anything with alcohol in it, by your reasoning you're no better than a meth addict.

[GostHacked]

It absolutely is worth discussing! It's the very fact that this person could exist that makes mandatory minimums such a huge problem. They eliminate judicial discrection that allows judges to consider individual circumstances. More insidious than that is the fact that mandatory minimum legislation in the US often results in the prosecutors forcing accused parties to plead guilty to lesser charges to avoid mandatory minimums, without actually going to trial. It's not just the mandatory minimum sentences that fill up the prisons, but this unchecked power that can be wielded by the prosecution will fill up the prisons by eliminating judicial discretion for circumstances.

I've known a few of those types myself. If legal I would love to grow my own. I pay my taxes, I have a great job with great benefits, I don't have a family as of yet (still lookin for a good woman). I am responsible with my habit. I don't come into work under the influence. I meet most of my deadlines and have a great working relationship with my superiors and those I support in my job.

There is a time and a place for everything. People can be responsible about things, don't punish those being responsible because others can't be.

[cybercoma]

I don't smoke pot, but I have in the past. Lately, my job has been consuming me. I can't sleep at night and when I do fall asleep, I'm still thinking about the research that we've been doing. Where drinking is legal, it makes a person feel like crap. Who wants to be sick in the morning and feel dizzy and aggressive while you're drinking? Some days I wish it were legal or I could more easily get access to it without having to sneak around like a criminal, so I could just smoke a joint and relax without feeling like I went 12 rounds the next morning.

[GostHacked]

I don't smoke pot, but I have in the past. Lately, my job has been consuming me. I can't sleep at night and when I do fall asleep, I'm still thinking about the research that we've been doing. Where drinking is legal, it makes a person feel like crap. Who wants to be sick in the morning and feel dizzy and aggressive while you're drinking? Some days I wish it were legal or I could more easily get access to it without having to sneak around like a criminal, so I could just smoke a joint and relax without feeling like I went 12 rounds the next morning.

Maybe we can roll a big one for our government. Maybe they would chill out and say 'war, what is it good for'?

[Wild Bill]

I doubt this guy exists, and even if he does, he is such an anomaly that it isn't worth discussing.

If Bob is willing to risk being thrown in jail and leaving his family and 4 children on welfare for the sake of growing his own marijuana, then they're probably better off without him

Bob the pot growing accountant better dig up those plants!

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Man, I haven't seen someone so out of touch with the values of his society since Stockwell Day and his supporters thought Christian evangelicals were actually a silent majority!

Usually I find your points true to the mark but on this one, I truly wonder if you and I live in the same country!

Poll after poll after poll has shown for DECADES now that a LARGE number of citizens smoke or have smoked marijuana! They've also shown that a majority of citizens don't think that marijuana is any more dangerous than booze or other legal vices.

What's more, I think the main point that you and the CPC are blind to is that besides the users there is another large segment of people who while they don't use the stuff don't think it's worth harsh punishments. A smart politician must add up BOTH percentages to judge which way the wind blows!

Then to hide behind the cowardly excuse that "The Law is the Law and you must obey it!" When you create an unpopular law people will NOT embrace it just because you tell them to, like some shrill fishwife! The Law is supposed to be an expression of the will of the people. Politicians who do that well earn the confidence and respect of the citizenry. When they DON'T do it well people don't automatically give them the same confidence simply because of their position. Respect must be constantly earned, not demanded.

No, going against the values of the people simply breeds disrespect for the Law. Like Prohibition, it can only end in failure.

So where the hell is the political gain from this Deputy Dan approach? It seems obvious that the first time someone is put in jail for such a trivial offence the government is going to look like a bunch of cruel, vicious old farts!

Warren Kinsella will have more fun than the day he dreamed up tagging Stockwell Day with Barney the Dinosaur!

The CPC is handing their opponents the very baseball bat those opponents will use to whack Tories over the head politically!

They're making John Tory's campaign team look like political geniuses!

I never thought I'd see Harper, the man who always railed against mixing religion and politics, telling the Reform Party members that it would be the electoral kiss of death, do something so stupid!

Edited November 18, 2011 by Wild Bill

[jacee]

Maybe we can roll a big one for our government. Maybe they would chill out and say 'war, what is it good for'?

We could bake them some brownies!

[CPCFTW]

Man, I haven't seen someone so out of touch with the values of his society since Stockwell Day and his supporters thought Christian evangelicals were actually a silent majority!

Usually I find your points true to the mark but on this one, I truly wonder if you and I live in the same country!

Poll after poll after poll has shown for DECADES now that a LARGE number of citizens smoke or have smoked marijuana! They've also shown that a majority of citizens don't think that marijuana is any more dangerous than booze or other legal vices.

What's more, I think the main point that you and the CPC are blind to is that besides the users there is another large segment of people who while they don't use the stuff don't think it's worth harsh punishments. A smart politician must add up BOTH percentages to judge which way the wind blows!

Then to hide behind the cowardly excuse that "The Law is the Law and you must obey it!" When you create an unpopular law people will NOT embrace it just because you tell them to, like some shrill fishwife! The Law is supposed to be an expression of the will of the people. Politicians who do that well earn the confidence and respect of the citizenry. When they DON'T do it well people don't automatically give them the same confidence simply because of their position. Respect must be constantly earned, not demanded.

No, going against the values of the people simply breeds disrespect for the Law. Like Prohibition, it can only end in failure.

So where the hell is the political gain from this Deputy Dan approach? It seems obvious that the first time someone is put in jail for such a trivial offence the government is going to look like a bunch of cruel, vicious old farts!

Warren Kinsella will have more fun than the day he dreamed up tagging Stockwell Day with Barney the Dinosaur!

The CPC is handing their opponents the very baseball bat those opponents will use to whack Tories over the head politically!

They're making John Tory's campaign team look like political geniuses!

I never thought I'd see Harper, the man who always railed against mixing religion and politics, telling the Reform Party members that it would be the electoral kiss of death, do something so stupid!

I've smoked, and I don't really care for this law... But hypothesizing about bob the accountant with 4 children having some plants in his backyard and being locked up is too much.

I certainly don't think this law will affect too many people other than making them stop growing.

[grogy]

Further criminalizing pot is a mistake.

[Argus]

Why the fuck should they be treated any differently than people who grow grapes and make wine?

Christ on a stick.

Because this country has decided it's illegal, and as far as I'm aware the majority still wants it to be illegal to grow and sell dope

[Wild Bill]

I've smoked, and I don't really care for this law... But hypothesizing about bob the accountant with 4 children having some plants in his backyard and being locked up is too much.

I certainly don't think this law will affect too many people other than making them stop growing.

Are you new???? It will do nothing of the kind! If there are cases in the media of people getting harsh sentences for a handful of plants grown for personal consumption, it will cause disgust and even rage among a large portion of voters!

Where do you live, anyway? Some religious commune in the foothills of the Rockies, cut off from mainstream Canada?

The Tories have enough problems trying to win seats in the big urban cities here in the East. THIS is how they address their problem?

You can argue till the cows come home but this is equivalent to trying to get people to support Prohibition by making the laws harsher! All it does is make Al Capone richer!

Mark my words, if this happens the Tories will take a big hit in both Ontario and Quebec next election. Their only hope will be for Dion to come back and run for the Liberals again!

I'll put up a bottle of the Glen Livet on this!

It's politically stupid! What flippin' idiot in the Tory caucus is driving this, I don't know but he must be undercover for the Opposition, trying to get the Tories to shoot themselves in the foot!

If the CPC sends us back to decades of perpetual Liberals I'm going to go postal!

I'll leave you to your busy life. I wouldn't want you to miss a Lawrence Welk rerun!

Edited November 18, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

Because this country has decided it's illegal, and as far as I'm aware the majority still wants it to be illegal to grow and sell dope

Argus, we're usually on the same side but on this one I think you're flat out wrong! See my other posts in this thread!

I'm worried sick they are going to throw some nice young yuppie couple in jail, Warren Kinsella will have a field day and the Tories will kiss any hope of winning any big city seats here in the East for a couple of generations!

Chretien is going to throw a party!

Even more, the whole thing is too trivial to even be necessary! Hitting those who grow for personal consumption will do NOTHING to stamp out REAL crime!

Where is the political upside? 50 or so votes in some Jehovah Witness community in the suburbs of a huge city like Canmore? It just isn't worth it!

As I said elsewhere, it makes John Tory's campaign team look like political Einsteins!

Edited November 18, 2011 by Wild Bill

[cybercoma]

Because this country has decided it's illegal, and as far as I'm aware the majority still wants it to be illegal to grow and sell dope

53% of Canadians, according to this 2010 Angus-Reid Poll, support the legalization of marijuana. That's a majority.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/38770/canadian_majority_would_legalize_marijuana1/

[Wild Bill]

53% of Canadians, according to this 2010 Angus-Reid Poll, support the legalization of marijuana. That's a majority.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/38770/canadian_majority_would_legalize_marijuana1/

I respect you for trying, CC but I don't thing you will change his mind. When you're dealing with the "Ned Flanders" crowd, I don't think they know the difference between any drug and certainly they just can't accept the idea that their values are not mainstream, no matter how many polls you throw at them.

This is looking to me more and more like a runaway freight train, a fait accompli. We're just going to have to live with the consequences. As I had said, it'll be another John Tory fiasco. Conservative parties these days seem very good at that!

[GostHacked]

Because this country has decided it's illegal, and as far as I'm aware the majority still wants it to be illegal to grow and sell dope

And yet alcohol is legal.

[cybercoma]

I respect you for trying, CC but I don't thing you will change his mind. When you're dealing with the "Ned Flanders" crowd, I don't think they know the difference between any drug and certainly they just can't accept the idea that their values are not mainstream, no matter how many polls you throw at them.

This is looking to me more and more like a runaway freight train, a fait accompli. We're just going to have to live with the consequences. As I had said, it'll be another John Tory fiasco. Conservative parties these days seem very good at that!

I'm not really trying to convince him. Argus is usually reasonable. If he knows of a poll that shows a majority of people opposed to legalization, I'm sure he'll produce it.

[dre]

I've smoked, and I don't really care for this law... But hypothesizing about bob the accountant with 4 children having some plants in his backyard and being locked up is too much.

I certainly don't think this law will affect too many people other than making them stop growing.

No my scenario is completely realistic and there will be thousands of such stories. Somewhere between 5 and 10 million people in the country use this substance, and the vast majority of them are completely ordinary working tax paying Canadians. Doctors, Lawyers, Bankers, Carpenters, Plumbers, Business Owners.

I certainly don't think this law will affect too many people other than making them stop growing.

Well then you live in a complete and utter fantasty world. Prohibition has not stopped this activity in a single country its ever been tried in.

[eyeball]

Because this country has decided it's illegal, and as far as I'm aware the majority still wants it to be illegal to grow and sell dope

What you don't seem to realize or more likely don't give a shit about is that this legislation targets tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who simply grow marijuana for their own consumption.

6 plants is, as you like to say, mice nuts.

[Guest Derek L]

Man, I haven't seen someone so out of touch with the values of his society since Stockwell Day and his supporters thought Christian evangelicals were actually a silent majority!

Usually I find your points true to the mark but on this one, I truly wonder if you and I live in the same country!

Poll after poll after poll has shown for DECADES now that a LARGE number of citizens smoke or have smoked marijuana! They've also shown that a majority of citizens don't think that marijuana is any more dangerous than booze or other legal vices.

What's more, I think the main point that you and the CPC are blind to is that besides the users there is another large segment of people who while they don't use the stuff don't think it's worth harsh punishments. A smart politician must add up BOTH percentages to judge which way the wind blows!

Then to hide behind the cowardly excuse that "The Law is the Law and you must obey it!" When you create an unpopular law people will NOT embrace it just because you tell them to, like some shrill fishwife! The Law is supposed to be an expression of the will of the people. Politicians who do that well earn the confidence and respect of the citizenry. When they DON'T do it well people don't automatically give them the same confidence simply because of their position. Respect must be constantly earned, not demanded.

No, going against the values of the people simply breeds disrespect for the Law. Like Prohibition, it can only end in failure.

So where the hell is the political gain from this Deputy Dan approach? It seems obvious that the first time someone is put in jail for such a trivial offence the government is going to look like a bunch of cruel, vicious old farts!

Warren Kinsella will have more fun than the day he dreamed up tagging Stockwell Day with Barney the Dinosaur!

The CPC is handing their opponents the very baseball bat those opponents will use to whack Tories over the head politically!

They're making John Tory's campaign team look like political geniuses!

I never thought I'd see Harper, the man who always railed against mixing religion and politics, telling the Reform Party members that it would be the electoral kiss of death, do something so stupid!

Well said Bill………Like most, I’ve tried it when I was a teenager several times, it did nothing for me, but I’ve yet to hear of a story relating a “reefer addict”, after a evening of “heavy smoking”, coming home and beating his wife………….I liken drugs laws to our gun laws…….no more, no less……..If I’m not paying for it, it’s being used by an adult, and it’s use isn’t affecting others…….What business is it of Government or mine?

My only hesitations, which I’m sure could be solved with some effort, is preventing an increase in wait times at border crossings and the police having an ability to conduct a roadside test……Solve these, and I say whatever floats your boat………

[dre]

Well said Bill………Like most, I’ve tried it when I was a teenager several times, it did nothing for me, but I’ve yet to hear of a story relating a “reefer addict”, after a evening of “heavy smoking”, coming home and beating his wife………….I liken drugs laws to our gun laws…….no more, no less……..If I’m not paying for it, it’s being used by an adult, and it’s use isn’t affecting others…….What business is it of Government or mine?

My only hesitations, which I’m sure could be solved with some effort, is preventing an increase in wait times at border crossings and the police having an ability to conduct a roadside test……Solve these, and I say whatever floats your boat………

I dont see any reason to make roadside testing a precondition.

BTW... road side testing is not going to work. They started trying to roll this out last year in BC, and the courts and attorneys laughed in the cops faces when they tried to use it in trials. My city has now stopped training officers.

And BTW the same thing is going to happen with most of Harpers crime bill. The courts will just refuse to enforce it. Know what the police, lawyers, prosecutors, and defense attorneys all have in common? They all think its mind numbingly retarded to throw people in jail for using soft drugs.

Mandatory minimums are going to backfire. The system will just stop bringing these cases to trial completely, and these people wont even get the slaps on the risk they got before. Or the judges will simply throw the cases out. MMSing only comes into play if theres a charge, a trial and a guilty verdict.

[WWWTT]

Because this country has decided it's illegal, and as far as I'm aware the majority still wants it to be illegal to grow and sell dope

And judges have no say?

And what about constitutional rights?

WWWTT

[blueblood]

Well said Bill………Like most, I’ve tried it when I was a teenager several times, it did nothing for me, but I’ve yet to hear of a story relating a “reefer addict”, after a evening of “heavy smoking”, coming home and beating his wife………….I liken drugs laws to our gun laws…….no more, no less……..If I’m not paying for it, it’s being used by an adult, and it’s use isn’t affecting others…….What business is it of Government or mine?

My only hesitations, which I’m sure could be solved with some effort, is preventing an increase in wait times at border crossings and the police having an ability to conduct a roadside test……Solve these, and I say whatever floats your boat………

I'm sure if you studied the comings and goings of the late 1800s you can understand why there was pressure put on govts to do something about mind altering substances.

[WWWTT]

I'm not really trying to convince him. Argus is usually reasonable. If he knows of a poll that shows a majority of people opposed to legalization, I'm sure he'll produce it.

I don't understand why some people feel that rights can somehow be dismissed with a poll or election.

What if there was a poll about gay marriage?

Would this poll somehow have any relevance?

WWWTT

[Guest Derek L]

I dont see any reason to make roadside testing a precondition.

BTW... road side testing is not going to work. They started trying to roll this out last year in BC, and the courts and attorneys laughed in the cops faces when they tried to use it in trials. My city has now stopped training officers.

You don’t feel someone high on pot, driving a vehicle could be dangerous to the public? What about alcohol?

And BTW the same thing is going to happen with most of Harpers crime bill. The courts will just refuse to enforce it. Know what the police, lawyers, prosecutors, and defense attorneys all have in common? They all think its mind numbingly retarded to throw people in jail for using soft drugs.

Mandatory minimums are going to backfire. The system will just stop bringing these cases to trial completely, and these people wont even get the slaps on the risk they got before. Or the judges will simply throw the cases out. MMSing only comes into play if theres a charge, a trial and a guilty verdict.

You’re preaching to the choir……….The crime bill, like what all political parties of any stripe do, is all about optics……..And the Conservative belief, which I adhere to, of decentralization…….They can play to their base, some provinces will enforce the laws strictly, some won’t…..If a judge in province “x” gives a light sentence in a high profile case, with whom does the public’s scorn get directed? The Government or the judge? If it becomes a trend of light sentencing in province “x”, and the federal government has given each province the “tools to deal with crime & punishment” and province “x” chooses not to exercise them, and this goes against public opinion, who will bare the public’s ire? The Feds or the province?

It’s pure Teflon.

This is why I get a kick about all the doom & gloom and prophecies of forthcoming police states……