Smallc Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 the same happens within each caucus now, the looney fundy right in the CPC is the norm and wags the bigger dog, is that desirable? in a PR system the deal making is out in the open and we know who they are and where everyone stands, there is no hiding in the backbenches of the CPC... Actually, that hasn't happened in the CPC. CPC policies are determined at conventions for the most part, and are just as much in the open. neither is one party state there are a democratic procedure within the party...you advocate for a less democratic FPTP system that is closer to a one party state than a PR form of democracy... A one party state isn't in any way comparable. and that's not the fault of the system but the stubbornness of the people in it, therefore the fault of the electorate in choosing ideologues that refuse to negotiate in good faith to reach a consensus...once again you attempt deflect the from the issue and move the goalposts from democracy to efficiency,either deliberately disingenuous or you don't understand the concept of democracy... Sometimes, it is the fault of a system and the people. If a system doesn't work, you change it. If it works, leave it alone. A system that leads to constant deadlock isn't sustainable. not worth a response or you have no answer when own logic is turned against you?....in the end democracy is what matters most millions have died for it, and you want to limit it... Democracy doesn't matter more than the mechanisms (such as a stable government with adequate finances. Democracy is a tool by which the people are able to help determine how they're governed. A democracy that creates instability is no democracy at all. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 really it's one of the most common reasons I've heard in my life for not voting, "my vote doesn't matter, so why bother"... It really doesn't matter if the non-voters would vote in the same way that voters do - i.e. same percentages for Conservatives, NDP, Liberals... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
grogy Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 It really doesn't matter if the non-voters would vote in the same way that voters do - i.e. same percentages for Conservatives, NDP, Liberals... nah, that could never happen, it's only the down trodden and obviously liberal leaning people that don't vote, the conservatives however all get together every few years to maintain their fascist like hold on democracy I got my invite, it was a great after party. Quote
grogy Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 you want to limit it... What we really need is a seat in parliament for every single Canadian, or a referendum on every single piece of legislation, now thats democracy, it's idiotic, and if you still didn't get what you wanted you would surely find some way to bitch and moan about it. Quote
wyly Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 Democracy doesn't matter more than the mechanisms (such as a stable government with adequate finances. Democracy is a tool by which the people are able to help determine how they're governed. A democracy that creates instability is no democracy at all. instability is characteristic in democraciesdictatorship-stable...democracies-unstable so we now know which way you lean... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 instability is characteristic in democracies It doesn't have to be. There isn't generally very much instability in places like Canada, the UK, Australia, etc. dictatorship-stable...democracies-unstableso we now know which way you lean... Quote
jacee Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) No, you're wrong. There are significant differences in the brains of pedophiles, and it has been theorized that many can't help themselves. Irrelevant.In court the issue is 'do they understand that what they did was wrong?' You'll have to show me a case where a pedophile got off on an 'insanity' plea because I don't believe it happens. The evasion of detection is clear evidence that they know what they're doing is wrong. Pedophiles don't get an insanity defence. They go to jail. Edited November 17, 2011 by jacee Quote
Smallc Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 We send them to jail because we don't seem to have anywhere else to put them, but that isn't where they belong. Quote
wyly Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 Irrelevant. In court the issue is 'do they understand that what they did was wrong?' You'll have to show me a case where a pedophile got off on an 'insanity' plea because I don't believe it happens. The evasion of detection is clear evidence that they know what they're doing is wrong. They go to jail. there is another side to this, are we sending them to the right place? sure they may know it's wrong but is prison the right place for them, if we define them as ill shouldn't they be in a psych center serving a predetermined time period? Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) We send them to jail because we don't seem to have anywhere else to put them, but that isn't where they belong. that would be my issue, are we putting them in the right place... Edited November 17, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 if we define them as ill shouldn't they be in a psych center serving a predetermined time period? The problem is, with current medical technology (it's apparently a physiological problem), they can never get better. Quote
Evening Star Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 instability is characteristic in democracies dictatorship-stable...democracies-unstable so we now know which way you lean... Many dictatorships are unstable. Quote
wyly Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 The problem is, with current medical technology (it's apparently a physiological problem), they can never get better. that's still ill even if it's incurable... if they can't control their impulses put them away indefinitely but put them in the proper secure medical facility... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Smallc Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 that's still ill even if it's incurable... if they can't control their impulses put them away indefinitely but put them in the proper secure medical facility... That's what I was really saying - they can never come out. Quote
dre Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 The problem is, with current medical technology (it's apparently a physiological problem), they can never get better. No but they can stop offending, and most do. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 No but they can stop offending, and most do. Some can, but apparently for some, the problem in their brain is so bad that it's impossible to control. I'm just going by a couple of things that I read. Quote
wyly Posted November 17, 2011 Report Posted November 17, 2011 No but they can stop offending, and most do. and that's true as well... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
cybercoma Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 No, you're wrong. There are significant differences in the brains of pedophiles, and it has been theorized that many can't help themselves. Which would make them a serious threat to society with little chance of being reformed. Unfortunately, they need to be either locked up in prison or put into a mental health facility. Quote
Smallc Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 Which would make them a serious threat to society with little chance of being reformed. Unfortunately, they need to be either locked up in prison or put into a mental health facility. I completely agree. There should be some kind of facility where they can be housed until we can deal with their issues. I don't think that jail is that place though. Quote
cybercoma Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 I completely agree. There should be some kind of facility where they can be housed until we can deal with their issues. I don't think that jail is that place though. Maybe not. But, it still seems a bit silly that someone who grows a few pot plants for his/her own supply or maybe to share with a few friends should get many years in prison, potentially more than a pedophile that has raped a child. I mean wtf. Quote
Smallc Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Maybe not. But, it still seems a bit silly that someone who grows a few pot plants for his/her own supply or maybe to share with a few friends should get many years in prison, potentially more than a pedophile that has raped a child. I mean wtf. Yeah, I support some parts of the crime bill, but this government's stand on drugs is just, so.....WTF? It must be red meat for the base or something. I mean, it isn't going to stop anyone, and if it's enforced, it's going to clog up the court system and the provincial jails like crazy. Edited November 18, 2011 by Smallc Quote
eyeball Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) The heavier punishment is for those who grow pot. I recall seeing a study last month which showed the majority of those arrested for growing pot, even those with grow ops and hundreds of plants, served no time. Why the fuck should they be treated any differently than people who grow grapes and make wine? Christ on a stick. Edited November 18, 2011 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Yeah, I support some parts of the crime bill, but this government's stand on drugs is just, so.....WTF? It must be red meat for the base or something. I mean, it isn't going to stop anyone, and if it's enforced, it's going to clog up the court system and the provincial jails like crazy. The thing is, in my opinion this is a major human rights violation. Its more than just "throwing some red meat for the base". This will destroy a lot of peoples lives, and in many cases incarcerate people who are productive members of society that work at normal jobs that pay taxes, have families, children, and literally dont harm anyone. This isnt just one bad part in a bill. Its a dispicable assault against the citizens of this country (a majority of whom favor decriminalization of soft drugs). Its the worst legislation that the government of Canada has attempt to pass in the 38 years I have been alive. Bob has six plants in his back yard. Hes an accountant that makes 70 thousand dollars per year, he pays 28 thousand dollars in taxes per year, and he supports a family of four. Hes never dealt, and hes never harmed anyone. Harper wants to throw that guy in jail. If he does that, then not only do you lose the 30k in taxes he was paying, but 6-8 other taxpayers have to work full time and pay all of their taxes towards his incarceration (it will cost us about 100gs per year). His family is quite likely to lose their home, and end up on some kind of government assistance which will cost the taxpayer yet more money. This person is guaranteed jail time now even on a first offense. But if I beat the living shit out of a guy at the bar Im almost guaranteed to not serve time. If I rape a women Im not guaranteed to serve time. If I break into your house and steal from you I probably wont serve time. If this bill had 10 000 pages of really great solid legislation and this took up only 1 page. It would STILL be a reason for any reasonable freedom loving person to vehemently oppose this legislation. Edited November 18, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
CPCFTW Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Bob has six plants in his back yard. Hes an accountant that makes 70 thousand dollars per year, he pays 28 thousand dollars in taxes per year, and he supports a family of four. Hes never dealt, and hes never harmed anyone. I doubt this guy exists, and even if he does, he is such an anomaly that it isn't worth discussing. Harper wants to throw that guy in jail. If he does that, then not only do you lose the 30k in taxes he was paying, but 6-8 other taxpayers have to work full time and pay all of their taxes towards his incarceration (it will cost us about 100gs per year). His family is quite likely to lose their home, and end up on some kind of government assistance which will cost the taxpayer yet more money.This person is guaranteed jail time now even on a first offense. If Bob is willing to risk being thrown in jail and leaving his family and 4 children on welfare for the sake of growing his own marijuana, then they're probably better off without him Bob the pot growing accountant better dig up those plants! Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. But if I beat the living shit out of a guy at the bar Im almost guaranteed to not serve time. If I rape a women Im not guaranteed to serve time. If I break into your house and steal from you I probably wont serve time. And you can bet that conservatives would love to increase the punishment for that sort of activity if not for bleeding heart lefties whining that it was the system and social inequality that drove you to commit such acts. Edited November 18, 2011 by CPCFTW Quote
CPCFTW Posted November 18, 2011 Report Posted November 18, 2011 Why the fuck should they be treated any differently than people who grow grapes and make wine? Christ on a stick. Or people who cook meth? Quote
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