Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) .something that has gotten me to change my postion is i know 65 aircraft is not enough... Since we won't be doing our own training, the 65 aircraft will be able to do far more than the 48 combat aircraft we have now. We're going to actually have more aircraft available with 65 aircraft than we do now with 79. Edited October 28, 2011 by Smallc Quote
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 We cannot afford this We are over 550 billion in debt Which is very low in comparison to the rest of the world. I'm not saying we should spend like crazy, but a few billion dollar projects aren't really going to affect us in any kind of a bad way. Quote
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 I think if we go ahead with wanting to get nuclear subs, it would be worth looking at how feasible it would be to build them in Canada. We do have the necessary nuclear reactor expertise. I think we'd probably want to get them within the next 10 years, making that pretty much a non starter. Quote
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 As I expected, the government has now denied that they are even considering nuclear subs. I doubt we'll end up with any submarines...not that we have any now. Quote
wyly Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) This story along with others may have an underliying theme. The F-35 program is well getting more and more flak every day, with more and more experts agreeing that perhaps we should down size our commitment to the F-35...The only minister right now that defends the purchase is mckay....as problems grow even the MND will find it hard to keep the program in line and on track....thats 29 bil worth of program... The reason i say this is the super hornet is looking better and better to almost everyone....I think we will all agree there is not much more room for defence spending.....And yet try and find a Canadian that really puts any stock into our current Subs....I think selling the Nuc sub would be an easy ploy if someone could convince the minister and airforce to cancel the F-35 purchase, of course that would have to be a big bone you'd have to throw, but if it did happen there would be room for perhaps some subs.... As for which Subs to purchase the brits have a new sub, and although it still going through teething problems like dereck said I don't think Canadians want to buy anything British.... I like the American solution, purchase some refitted LA class, have Canadian sailors intergrated into the US training,not the first time we have done this, infact i pretty sure we have had our sailors on board US subs as part of some Officer training course albiet in very few numbers, but it has been done....I mean our Navy is one of the few that has been allowed to form US Naval battle groups, we have exchanged crew all the time... Not only would it give Canada a crack at owning and operating it's own Nuc sub program, but we would or could do it under the worlds finest operators, it would also allow the US to still float x number of boats at a fraction of the price as there is no doubt they could or would become part of another US Naval BG. and like Derick said perhaps we could Grad into maybe the Virgina class some day.... As for Maintence , or refits, they could be done at US ship yards....as part of the agreement... it took awhile but people are coming around to my way of thinking...the super hornet is more than enough for our needs...nuclear subs? I'm sure there lots of posters get a woodie talking about military toys, talk of nuke subs probably have them coming in their pants...but it's as much overkill as the F-35...there are perfectly good submarines ready for purchase that don't require enormous expense of training, design, purchase, operation and disposal of nukes...plus for the stealth nuts diesel/electric are often better than nuclear subs, they're quieter ...germany makes excellent versatile submarines, buy american, buy russian who cares as long as we don't get screwed over by a used submarine salesman from britain again... Edited October 28, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 it took awhile but people are coming around to my way of thinking...the super hornet is more than enough for our needs... nuclear subs? I'm sure there lots of posters get a woodie talking about military toys, talk of nuke subs probably have them coming in their pants... Well, apparently the Boeing F-18 E/F strike fighter "does it" for you. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wild Bill Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 it took awhile but people are coming around to my way of thinking...the super hornet is more than enough for our needs... nuclear subs? I'm sure there lots of posters get a woodie talking about military toys, talk of nuke subs probably have them coming in their pants...but it's as much overkill as the F-35...their are perfectly good submarines ready for purchase that don't require enormous expense of training, design, purchase, operation and disposal of nukes...plus for the stealth nuts diesel/electric are often better than nuclear subs, they're quieter ...germany makes excellent versatile submarines, buy american, buy russian who cares as long as we don't get screwed over by a used submarine salesman from britain again... I admit that I don't know enough to answer my own question but if we went with Super Hornets, how would they stand up in a conflict with other countries? I'm sure they could hold their own against a country like Bangladesh but is there a chance that we'd end up out-classed, with our Super Hornets blown out of the sky in combat against a country with better planes? Not today, of course, but maybe in 20 years? We all know that no matter what planes we get it's Ottawa's way to get nothing better for 50 years or so, especially if the Liberals get back in power. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
olp1fan Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 As I expected, the government has now denied that they are even considering nuclear subs. I doubt we'll end up with any submarines...not that we have any now. they denied getting new jets at first also but see how that turned out Quote
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 they denied getting new jets at first also but see how that turned out They did? When? Quote
wyly Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 I admit that I don't know enough to answer my own question but if we went with Super Hornets, how would they stand up in a conflict with other countries? I'm sure they could hold their own against a country like Bangladesh but is there a chance that we'd end up out-classed, with our Super Hornets blown out of the sky in combat against a country with better planes? Not today, of course, but maybe in 20 years? We all know that no matter what planes we get it's Ottawa's way to get nothing better for 50 years or so, especially if the Liberals get back in power. who do you foresee us in a battle with? Any country that has the capability to invade us will take out our F35's in the first wave of the attack, they're totally useless in defending us from super powers and complete overkill for the assignment of sovereignty, the Super hornet and probably other planes from a number of countries would do the job just fine ...and even it is quite useless at asserting sovereignty as well, the best options there are boots on the ground and ships...then the issue of why any country would attack us? Russia has more resources than us and they're no longer an enemy...China buys all the resources we're willing to sell them, buying is way cheaper than war...and if the US wants our resources they will take them despite any F35's, they'll roll over us in less than a day...and no other countries in the world has the resources now or ever will have to invade us...and why should they, the world is a much different place than it was a few decades ago...business/trade is warfare of this era... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
blueblood Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Well, apparently the Boeing F-18 E/F strike fighter "does it" for you. Hey they all look good after 2 am Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
olp1fan Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Citation please. could not find it on google but my memory is a good one Quote
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 who do you foresee us in a battle with? Any country that has the capability to invade us will take out our F35's in the first wave of the attack, Other than the US, no. Russia has more resources than us They do? Like oil? No. Quote
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 could not find it on google but my memory is a good one So is mine, and I don't remember that. Quote
blueblood Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 who do you foresee us in a battle with? Any country that has the capability to invade us will take out our F35's in the first wave of the attack, they're totally useless in defending us from super powers and complete overkill for the assignment of sovereignty, the Super hornet and probably other planes from a number of countries would do the job just fine ...and even it is quite useless at asserting sovereignty as well, the best options there are boots on the ground and ships... then the issue of why any country would attack us? Russia has more resources than us and they're no longer an enemy...China buys all the resources we're willing to sell them, buying is way cheaper than war...and if the US wants our resources they will take them despite any F35's, they'll roll over us in less than a day...and no other countries in the world has the resources now or ever will have to invade us...and why should they, the world is a much different place than it was a few decades ago...business/trade is warfare of this era... Its like anything involving equipment you have to upgrade your iron from time to time. For example I'm digging ditches right now, last year I had a 6 yard scraper. It did the job, but there was something better. Now I have a 17 yard scraper and my ditches get dug faster, smoother, and the potholes get right full of fill. It was expensive but well worth it. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 Here's something I never thought of - maybe they're going to scrap these subs, and buy 4 - 6 new diesel electrics, like Scorpenes, or Type 214s. Quote
Wild Bill Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 who do you foresee us in a battle with? Any country that has the capability to invade us will take out our F35's in the first wave of the attack, they're totally useless in defending us from super powers and complete overkill for the assignment of sovereignty, the Super hornet and probably other planes from a number of countries would do the job just fine ...and even it is quite useless at asserting sovereignty as well, the best options there are boots on the ground and ships... then the issue of why any country would attack us? Russia has more resources than us and they're no longer an enemy...China buys all the resources we're willing to sell them, buying is way cheaper than war...and if the US wants our resources they will take them despite any F35's, they'll roll over us in less than a day...and no other countries in the world has the resources now or ever will have to invade us...and why should they, the world is a much different place than it was a few decades ago...business/trade is warfare of this era... Who can predict the future? A little over 20 years ago Russia WAS an enemy! What might happen 20 years from now? Can YOU predict with confidence that all conflict is over and Canada will never again need a military plane? What happens to my kids if YOU are wrong? What will YOU do to make it up to them? Remember, in modern times, you get no second chances. You get no time to start rebuilding your capabilities. A conflict starts and in a very short time it will be over. You work with what you have and if it's not good enough you lose. Period and end of story! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
wyly Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Other than the US, no.any country with cruise missles can take out our airbases/planes and any effective defence or use of those bases, russia, china, gb, france and more are all capable...They do? Like oil? No.comparatively little seismic exploration has been done in relation to it's enormous land mass, russian is completely self sufficient in oil and a major exporter it has no need of our resources...in referral to russian oil reservesa 1998 United States Geological Survey (USGS) survey estimated that undiscovered, technically feasible, conventional reserves were larger than those of any other country in the world. Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) Who can predict the future? A little over 20 years ago Russia WAS an enemy! What might happen 20 years from now? Can YOU predict with confidence that all conflict is over and Canada will never again need a military plane? What happens to my kids if YOU are wrong? What will YOU do to make it up to them? Remember, in modern times, you get no second chances. You get no time to start rebuilding your capabilities. A conflict starts and in a very short time it will be over. You work with what you have and if it's not good enough you lose. Period and end of story! unless we acquire nuclear weapons we do not have the capability to defend ourselves from any country that has the capability to obliterate us right now, nor without nuclear weapons will we ever have a deterrent to super powers...65 F35s ya they'll be quaking in their boots (they'd be taken out in the first few hrs of a conflict) ...the other non superpowers will never have that capability or desire to take from us what we gladly sell...you're promoting the idea we put the country in debt to fight a potential war that we can never win or will never come... Edited October 28, 2011 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Wild Bill Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 unless we acquire nuclear weapons we do not have the capability to defend ourselves from any country that has the capability to obliterate us right now, nor without nuclear weapons will we ever have a deterrent to super powers...65 F35s ya they'll be quaking in their boots (they'd be taken out in the first few hrs of a conflict) ...the other non superpowers will never have that capability or desire to take from us what we gladly sell...you're promoting the idea we put the country in debt to fight a potential war that we can never win or will never come... You might be right, but I can't help but feel that diplomacy and the human beings behind it don't work exactly that way. In any disagreement, you don't start out right off the bat by blowing your rival away with a howitzer or an atom bomb! There's "a long way from thar to here!" as a hillbilly might say! By your reasoning, who needs an infantry? If someone pushes you a little, just nuke him! Yet the infantry is perhaps the most important part of a military of all! Diplomats need options. Sometimes you need to just give a swat on the ass or maybe a smack on the head to straighten out the situation. You don't have any range of options if your only possible response is to start hurling nukes! In a defensive situation, a gradation of options is even more important. Any response should be proportionate. Again, you are limited if your only response possible is all out Armageddon. That puts you in the category of a Kim El Dongo, of North Korea. Somehow, I think Canada can do better than that! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 any country with cruise missles can take out our airbases/planes and any effective defence or use of those bases, russia, china, gb, france and more are all capable... Oh yes, it's just that simple . Quote
Smallc Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) F35s ya they'll be quaking in their boots (they'd be taken out in the first few hrs of a conflict) . You have absolutely no proof of that. You just made it up, just like all other military matters. Edited October 28, 2011 by Smallc Quote
wyly Posted October 28, 2011 Report Posted October 28, 2011 Oh yes, it's just that simple . ya for countries with a supply cruise missles its that simple...iraq libya cruise missiles take out air defenses first ...canada would be no different in fact it would be easier...disable the air bases and the f35s are just impotent junk...after that its a simple walk over... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
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