DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Then why would you suggest them for Canada? Quick, post a YouTube video.... Didn't suggest them...but Israel, if I recall, does use them as a hammer rather than a nail. Sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Mark my words...2020 and there will still be issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Mark my words...2020 and there will still be issues. Noted....do you also pick lotto numbers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Exactly, the last modern Navy to do so was the RN in 82.……..Still doesn’t diminish the utility of both SSNs and SSKs. Yes, these platforms are still relevant, and having crewed both (+SSBNs), I watched the Americans slowly wean themselves off of diesel boats in real time. A diesel on the battery is very difficult to detect, but it is also very limited in range and capability. AIP is marginally better. Canada has never operated nuclear subs so the operational differences are not as readily apparent, but the costs sure are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Yes, these platforms are still relevant, and having crewed both (+SSBNs), I watched the Americans slowly wean themselves off of diesel boats in real time. A diesel on the battery is very difficult to detect, but it is also very limited in range and capability. AIP is marginally better. Canada has never operated nuclear subs so the operational differences are not as readily apparent, but the costs sure are. Yes the Rickover inertia is well known………though I seem to remember reading an article a few years back (I think in Janes) that made the case for the USN to get back, on a limited basis, into diesels. Again going from memory, they made the case that a limited run (~15-24 boats) would not only boost numbers, but allow Electric Boat to get into the export market…..Basically another small USN SSK force would be welcomed in Brown-Water operations and WESTPAC. As to AIP, to that, I’m not sold……current systems amount to nothing but a trickle-charger and don’t even come close to producing the required energy to do propulsion, the boats electronics and hotel load all at once……This is made evident by all the associated problems found in the various modern European AIP boats… As to costs, exactly…..though a modern SSK is only slightly cheaper to procure then say a Virginia, it’s the operational costs that break the bank for many, including Canada…….We could afford a smallish fleet of 6-8 SSNs, but of course, half the surface fleet would have to go in exchange. Edited January 10, 2014 by Derek L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes the Rickover inertia is well known………though I seem to remember reading an article a few years back (I think in Janes) that made the case for the USN to get back, on a limited basis, into diesels. Again going from memory, they made the case that a limited run (~15-24 boats) would not only boost numbers, but allow Electric Boat to get into the export market…..Basically another small USN SSK force would be welcomed in Brown-Water operations and WESTPAC. Not going to happen because there is barely enough work to keep two shipyards in the nuclear biz....diesels would be a distraction and divert resources. Navy run yards are gone....the culture is gone...and the drone of battery charging well into the night is gone too. Nuclear boats have swagger....diesel electrics have a lot of hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Not going to happen because there is barely enough work to keep two shipyards in the nuclear biz....diesels would be a distraction and divert resources. Navy run yards are gone....the culture is gone...and the drone of battery charging well into the night is gone too. Nuclear boats have swagger....diesel electrics have a lot of hope. IIRC correctly that too was the author's conclusion, as made evident by the prior Bush administration quashing the planned SSK run for Taiwan at the Navy's request.......If cheaper SSKs started being spit out of Electric Boat, good idea fairies would certainly follow in the Appropriations Committees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) IIRC correctly that too was the author's conclusion, as made evident by the prior Bush administration quashing the planned SSK run for Taiwan at the Navy's request.......If cheaper SSKs started being spit out of Electric Boat, good idea fairies would certainly follow in the Appropriations Committees. With that said, from about a year ago: http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130128/DEFREG03/301280007/Taiwan-President-Presses-U-S-Subs-Deal TAIPEI — Taiwan urged the United States on Jan. 28 to honor an agreement to supply submarines to replace its current elderly fleet, as a U.S. congressional group visited the island to evaluate defense needs. President Ma Ying-jeou voiced the desire while meeting the group led by Edward Royce, chairman of the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs. and: The United States remains the leading arms supplier to Taiwan despite switching diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979. In April 2001, then-President George W. Bush approved the sale of eight conventional submarines as part of Washington’s most comprehensive arms package for the island since 1992. Since then, however, there has been little progress in filling the order. The United States has not built conventional submarines for more than 40 years, and Germany and Spain reportedly declined to offer their own designs for fear of offending China. I’m thinking a scaled down Virginia pig boat…….Might also have interested parties in Australia, the Netherlands and Canada going into the next decade…… Edited January 10, 2014 by Derek L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) IIRC correctly that too was the author's conclusion, as made evident by the prior Bush administration quashing the planned SSK run for Taiwan at the Navy's request.......If cheaper SSKs started being spit out of Electric Boat, good idea fairies would certainly follow in the Appropriations Committees. Several EU yards build good diesel boats, and the market is left to them. Hell, we used to build 'em in Manitowoc, Wisconsin ! Edited January 10, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Several EU yards build good diesel boats, and the market is left to them. Hell, we used to build 'em in Manitowoc, Wisconsin ! Not really......the French, Spanish and Germans programs have been plagued with even costlier delays and flaws with their newest designs……..The Dutch are out of the sub building game and Sweden is all that is left…….Based on their role in the flawed Collins class for the RAN, I’d be sceptical. Maybe Japan might step up and poke the Chicoms in the eye…….I think the Americans could really jump into the market with both feet……..The two most modern subs operated by the Taiwanese are after all Dutch built boats based off the Barbel boats…….Like I said, if you included Canada, Australia and the Dutch on top of Taiwan, you have a potential requirement for 24-30 boats……Nothing to sneeze at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) Maybe Japan might step up and poke the Chicoms in the eye…….I think the Americans could really jump into the market with both feet……..The two most modern subs operated by the Taiwanese are after all Dutch built boats based off the Barbel boats…….Like I said, if you included Canada, Australia and the Dutch on top of Taiwan, you have a potential requirement for 24-30 boats……Nothing to sneeze at. Sorry, if it was that promising, Canadian yards would already be building them. We are busy with the Virginia class: Edited January 11, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 11, 2014 Report Share Posted January 11, 2014 Sorry, if it was that promising, Canadian yards would already be building them. We are busy with the Virginia class: Nope.....we, like the Dutch don't build them.........much like modern fighters, tanks etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Though it would not surprise me, I certainly have not heard anything official on that. I hear you, but everybody in NATO is cutting back in this fiscal climate.........And as we talked about before, over 60% of DND's budget goes to manpower, so we can Certainly expect a haircut, for having a large force that doesn’t train and has obsolete equipment we’ve already done……..At the end of the day, defence doesn’t win elections in Canada. We, as in the West most certainly can contain them to their Ocean, much like we did to Japan……..Oh, and did you read Chesty Puller’s book that I recommended to you yet? The Army been told to brace for lean times, starting with the new fiscal year. and it does not look good for any Amry major purchases, such as the new truck fleet, tracked IFV etc.... I get the cashing in on the peace dividends, but if you look at those NATO nations that are cutting back, they already have a modern military and are not facing rust out on it's fleet. Canada has to many outstanding projects to be cashing in anything. If anything we should be looking at taking avantage of these cash outs to upgrade via buying used.... Canada has the second highest paid military in the world. we all get that wages is the problem, perhaps rolling back wages some what is the answer. I mean a basic Cpl making well over 50 k a year, not to meantion what a CWO makes...Bring back some of other programs to off set it, like reduce PMQ rent, or reducing some of the other expenses, sea pay/ field pay/ flight pay, that sort of thing....Right now i make close to 800 a month extra on field pay, might be in the field 3 or 4 times a year. You've hit it on the head, Defense has never won elelctions here in Canada, maybe it's time that W-5 does a documentary on the military....get Canadian interested in defense, and what it brings to the table....instead of waiting for soldier to die before we purchase something... Chesty Puller, what a legend, what a warrior,indeed a colorful character, even looks like warrior, built like a tank, hard as shi* as we say....Marine corps has always been the service of choice these type of men....I got to reading a few other books on US Marines... Worked with few in Afghan tough lot, professional, Steal (or should i say aquire through other means) anything and everything....but that also goes for the US army....had to place guards on everything when these guys were in camp, and it did'nt matter what it was, from toilet seats, to bath room doors they took it all....the only thing they had lots of was wpns, bullets, and MRE's....they trade their own grandmothers for fresh food....i found that alittle funney, as Canadians we have the exact opposite problem, lack of wpns, bullets, but lots of food..... Not sure i could handle being a Marine, on a cramped ship, bouncing around on the ocean....no wonder these guys fight like dogs when they hit the beach, they don't want to get back on those damn ships.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) The Army been told to brace for lean times, starting with the new fiscal year. and it does not look good for any Amry major purchases, such as the new truck fleet, tracked IFV etc.... Heard one story from my brother that an email notice circulated around NDHQ stating going forward, the maintenance of office plants would no longer be budgeted, with an expected savings of ~300k a year…. I get the cashing in on the peace dividends, but if you look at those NATO nations that are cutting back, they already have a modern military and are not facing rust out on it's fleet. Canada has to many outstanding projects to be cashing in anything. If anything we should be looking at taking avantage of these cash outs to upgrade via buying used.... Certainly buying used for some programs is viable……….Did you hear the one about the US Army and USMC steel shredding thousands of various types of MRAP in Afghanistan because they have no use for them? Canada has the second highest paid military in the world. we all get that wages is the problem, perhaps rolling back wages some what is the answer. I mean a basic Cpl making well over 50 k a year, not to meantion what a CWO makes...Bring back some of other programs to off set it, like reduce PMQ rent, or reducing some of the other expenses, sea pay/ field pay/ flight pay, that sort of thing....Right now i make close to 800 a month extra on field pay, might be in the field 3 or 4 times a year. I disagree, as I said to you before, I’d be far more in favour of reducing personal then cutting the pay of serving members. As to PMQs, the Government should get out of the business of subsidizing all those little crap-holes. You've hit it on the head, Defense has never won elelctions here in Canada, maybe it's time that W-5 does a documentary on the military....get Canadian interested in defense, and what it brings to the table....instead of waiting for soldier to die before we purchase something... I think we’re in a unique position here in Canada…….unlike almost every other First World Nation, we’re one of the very few not either born out of a revolution or that has faced or has been invaded by another nations military, as such there is no endearing legacy towards the armed forces found within our national makeup. Chesty Puller, what a legend, what a warrior,indeed a colorful character, even looks like warrior, built like a tank, hard as shi* as we say....Marine corps has always been the service of choice these type of men....I got to reading a few other books on US Marines... Worked with few in Afghan tough lot, professional, Steal (or should i say aquire through other means) anything and everything....but that also goes for the US army....had to place guards on everything when these guys were in camp, and it did'nt matter what it was, from toilet seats, to bath room doors they took it all....the only thing they had lots of was wpns, bullets, and MRE's....they trade their own grandmothers for fresh food....i found that alittle funney, as Canadians we have the exact opposite problem, lack of wpns, bullets, but lots of food..... Not sure i could handle being a Marine, on a cramped ship, bouncing around on the ocean....no wonder these guys fight like dogs when they hit the beach, they don't want to get back on those damn ships.... Yes indeed, the Marines are legendary……just ask them……..I’ve several close friends that are both retired Marine aviators and their exploits do, by and large, live up to the hype. In my view, our Army going forward should focus a strategy to emulate and transform our current force into a hybrid, landing somewhere in-between the USMC and the Royal Marines….in essence a light to medium force focused on short-term (a relative term) deployments abroad at the behest of the Government of Canada…….Simply put, the ability to deploy a Canadian Battlegroup with all the required kit and supplies stuffed into a ship(s) for upwards of 30 days to 6 months….This could be a mission anywhere from disaster relief, peacemaking/keeping, the evacuation of Canadian citizens inside another nation and finally, war fighting. Such a transformation would certainly require investment in some areas (and allow divestment in others) well requiring wholesale changes in how our army does business…….you just might have to get use to no replacement toilet seats and fresh lettuce……..As for being stuff aboard a ship, you get use to it…..it’s helped with Dramamine Edited January 13, 2014 by Derek L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 14, 2014 Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Heard one story from my brother that an email notice circulated around NDHQ stating going forward, the maintenance of office plants would no longer be budgeted, with an expected savings of ~300k a year…. Certainly buying used for some programs is viable……….Did you hear the one about the US Army and USMC steel shredding thousands of various types of MRAP in Afghanistan because they have no use for them? I disagree, as I said to you before, I’d be far more in favour of reducing personal then cutting the pay of serving members. As to PMQs, the Government should get out of the business of subsidizing all those little crap-holes. I think we’re in a unique position here in Canada…….unlike almost every other First World Nation, we’re one of the very few not either born out of a revolution or that has faced or has been invaded by another nations military, as such there is no endearing legacy towards the armed forces found within our national makeup. Yes indeed, the Marines are legendary……just ask them……..I’ve several close friends that are both retired Marine aviators and their exploits do, by and large, live up to the hype. In my view, our Army going forward should focus a strategy to emulate and transform our current force into a hybrid, landing somewhere in-between the USMC and the Royal Marines….in essence a light to medium force focused on short-term (a relative term) deployments abroad at the behest of the Government of Canada…….Simply put, the ability to deploy a Canadian Battlegroup with all the required kit and supplies stuffed into a ship(s) for upwards of 30 days to 6 months….This could be a mission anywhere from disaster relief, peacemaking/keeping, the evacuation of Canadian citizens inside another nation and finally, war fighting. Such a transformation would certainly require investment in some areas (and allow divestment in others) well requiring wholesale changes in how our army does business…….you just might have to get use to no replacement toilet seats and fresh lettuce……..As for being stuff aboard a ship, you get use to it…..it’s helped with Dramamine The cuts backs are every where, for cleaners of military buildings, Snow removal, rental budgets, training budgets, you name it it it's all been cut back, and next year this fiscal year, it is going to get crazy, 61 percent of units budgets are cut....which translate into very little training time....A thing they promised they would not do....well they done it. If there is a dollar out there it's being looked at.... US Army has got tons of good equipment for sale or at fire sales, MRAP's was one of them, we actually had a few in Afghan on loan...great pieces of gear.....ours are still coming, that project can't be cancelled the vehs are starting to come of the production line....yea TPAV project.....we finally ready for our last battle.....Most NATO countries have kit for sale....all we have to do is ask....why we do not is beyond me.... I get that alot, the last nation to attack us was the US, in the 1800's....and since that day the US government has been spending US tax dollars in our defense....living next to the largest super power has it's benifits....and as Canadians we are free loaders, hey if it is free sign me the F*** up....that has been our nations calling for the last 50 years .....But we have a different history, we have always been there to offer our help, despite the cost to our citizens...Boar war, WWI, WWII, Korea, through out the cold war, or most of it any ways....that is in our make up as well . And we use to pride ourselfs in that ........Now Canadians are happy in the fact the world and ourselfs joke about our nations military condition. and they would not even blink if our navy was reduced to 2 NFLDS in a row boat armed with shotguns....makes you think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted January 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2014 Every department is like that at every level right now. It's the fiscal reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek L Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 The cuts backs are every where, for cleaners of military buildings, Snow removal, rental budgets, training budgets, you name it it it's all been cut back, and next year this fiscal year, it is going to get crazy, 61 percent of units budgets are cut....which translate into very little training time....A thing they promised they would not do....well they done it. If there is a dollar out there it's being looked at.... It not quite like they did that………The elected Government told all departments to reduce “x” amount from their budgets, allowing DND to do the salami slicing…….if DND slashed their training and procurement budget as opposed to personal, well they’re in the bed of their own making. US Army has got tons of good equipment for sale or at fire sales, MRAP's was one of them, we actually had a few in Afghan on loan...great pieces of gear.....ours are still coming, that project can't be cancelled the vehs are starting to come of the production line....yea TPAV project.....we finally ready for our last battle.....Most NATO countries have kit for sale....all we have to do is ask....why we do not is beyond me.... Lack of regional offsets. I get that alot, the last nation to attack us was the US, in the 1800's....and since that day the US government has been spending US tax dollars in our defense....living next to the largest super power has it's benifits....and as Canadians we are free loaders, hey if it is free sign me the F*** up....that has been our nations calling for the last 50 years .....But we have a different history, we have always been there to offer our help, despite the cost to our citizens...Boar war, WWI, WWII, Korea, through out the cold war, or most of it any ways....that is in our make up as well . And we use to pride ourselfs in that ........Now Canadians are happy in the fact the world and ourselfs joke about our nations military condition. and they would not even blink if our navy was reduced to 2 NFLDS in a row boat armed with shotguns....makes you think... For sure......how do you think DND would be making out under the Liberals or NDP though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 Every department is like that at every level right now. It's the fiscal reality. I have a question, is it fiscal reality,Is our country in dire needs, in a recesion or is it trying to get spending under control as a build up to an election. because both are very different reasons for slashing everything to the bones....The reason i ask is the last time i checked Canada was doing well, in fact it was on the top of the pile.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted January 15, 2014 Report Share Posted January 15, 2014 It not quite like they did that………The elected Government told all departments to reduce “x” amount from their budgets, allowing DND to do the salami slicing…….if DND slashed their training and procurement budget as opposed to personal, well they’re in the bed of their own making. Lack of regional offsets. For sure......how do you think DND would be making out under the Liberals or NDP though? Don't get me wrong, this is a DND thing , for the most part however i think the last decision to be made is done with the government or atleast minister level, so their hands are not entirily clean. Another part of our procurement that is broken...Regional offsets are a major factor in all our buys, and for some of them i agree but it should not be a controling factor. I get it that everyone has their hands out, but in the end what should matter the most, is it ensuring we feed as many Canadian as possiable, or get the best equipment for our money....a good example of this is our ship building....nice to have the jobs here in Canada, but when is it time to fish or cut bait....when we can purchase these ships off some where else for cheaper.... I'm not sure any more, what i do know is at some piont someone is going to have make the tough choices....Under the Cons they made the public know to maintain our current level of military forces it would take 1 to 200 bil dollars over a 20 year period.....the longer this is put off the larger the costs are going to get larger much larger thats a fact....until it is no longer feasable to have a military..... this "this year is not good for us" does not work....And this looks like the direction in which we are heading correct me if i'm wrong... everyone is saying we can not afford these expenditures at this time, OK i get it "no funding", but when someone asks when they will have the funding to make military purchases....Nobody will say with certainity....we are left with two options we either pay now, or later....or shut er down ....each option has it's good and bad pionts....i think it is time to discuss the options and take a stance....provide the leadership that we say is required to run this nation....In my opinion..... .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 And further news on the class: For the first time since Canada's four Victoria-class subs were purchased almost two decades ago, the navy says the fleet is now "operational", meaning three of the subs are able to conduct naval operations. Two of the subs, HMCS Victoria and HMCS Chicoutimi will be in the water off Esquimalt, B.C. this week, while HMCS Windsor is currently operating out of Halifax. Despite their troubled careers, both in British and Canadian service, the class is finally operational..........ready to be replaced in the next 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerve Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 (edited) Wow. So what exactly do they do? Edited February 28, 2015 by nerve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek 2.0 Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Wow. So what exactly do they do? Provide a facet of sea deniability to a potential foe, far cheaper proportionally then surface ships and aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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