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Posted (edited)

This has to be about the 4th or 5th sat I have heard falling to earth this year. Are they so old and broken that we can expect more to fall?

It's probably a sign of the times - an indicator of our species economic performance and capability. The rate at which things are falling apart and coming down has probably outpaced the rate at which new satellites are going up.

I'm reminded of Stephan Hawking's thoughts on the importance of establishing a permanent presence in space to ensure our long-term chance of persisting and surviving. I think we've probably greatly reduced our chances of this myself given how we really no longer have a planet for the easy plundering.

My guess is that its a rare thing for a potential space-faring species to get it right the first time and devote the productivity of their emergent industrial age towards that all important first step up out of their gravity well. Given the apparent lack of any progress by SETI perhaps most like us have squandered it on making the top few percent of their kind fabulously wealthy instead of taking a longer view.

Kind of like a satellite that goes both up and down in a brief blaze of glory.

Edited by eyeball

A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.

Posted

It's probably a sign of the times - an indicator of our species economic performance and capability. The rate at which things are falling apart and coming down has probably outpaced the rate at which new satellites are going up.

That's just silly...there are over 8,000 artificial objects in orbit, along with natural objects. Most objects will decay and de-orbit to earth because there is no provision to control there altitude or speed. More satellites are launched each year.

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

Posted

By international treaty, the owner of the satellite pays damages, be it private firm or government owned object.

See the "1972 Convention on International Liability for Damage Caused by Space Objects".

"The compensation which the launching State shall be liable to pay for damage under this Convention shall be determined in accordance with international law and the principles of justice and equity, in order to provide such reparation in respect of the damage as will restore the person, natural or juridical, State or international organization on whose behalf the claim is presented to the condition which would have existed if the damage had not occurred."

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

Posted

Ain't thems things supposed to burn up in the atmospheres or somethings?

Depends on the size and what it was made of. They have to be pretty solid in construction to survive in space for that long. Micrometeors, can damage it .. solar flares have a huge effect on these suckers as well. Many oppourtunities for things to go wrong.

Posted

By international treaty, the owner of the satellite pays damages, be it private firm or government owned object.

See the "1972 Convention on International Liability for Damage Caused by Space Objects".

"The compensation which the launching State shall be liable to pay for damage under this Convention shall be determined in accordance with international law and the principles of justice and equity, in order to provide such reparation in respect of the damage as will restore the person, natural or juridical, State or international organization on whose behalf the claim is presented to the condition which would have existed if the damage had not occurred."

What about military objects that the US claim don't exist? Are they still liable?

“Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran

“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein

Posted

What about military objects that the US claim don't exist? Are they still liable?

If one of those object took me out I'm sure the American's would pay out my wife but that payout will never have happened.

Nor did my death happen.

My wife's hoping for a lottery win. ;)

Also, I bet the secret military object has "property of the United States Government" written all over it - not sure why I always get a kick out of this.

I'm sure Canada has some secret military objects and I wonder if we do the same thing?

If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist)

My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx

Posted (edited)

Yes, just like the Residential School "murders" that Canada says never happened.

Now that's silly. Of course it happened, just like it says in the official apology from the Government of Canada to the Nuu-chah-nulth peoples.

Edited by eyeball

A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.

Posted

Now that's silly. Of course it happened, just like it says in the official apology from the Government of Canada to the Nuu-chah-nulth peoples.

I shall beat BC2004 to the pedantic punch: the apology does not reference murder.

Yeah, I know. :rolleyes:

Anyway, this is getting way off topic.

Anyone know if Canada has secret military objects with "Property of the Government of Canada" stamped on them?

If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist)

My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx

Posted (edited)

Now that's silly. Of course it happened, just like it says in the official apology from the Government of Canada to the Nuu-chah-nulth peoples.

Show me the money.....the US will admit to all black satellites 40 years after the fact too.

Edited by bush_cheney2004

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

Posted

I shall beat BC2004 to the pedantic punch: the apology does not reference murder.

Yeah, I know. :rolleyes:

Anyway, this is getting way off topic.

Anyone know if Canada has secret military objects with "Property of the Government of Canada" stamped on them?

It references genocide, although not directly.

“Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran

“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein

Posted

No..it says "Property of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II"

Cool, then our enemies may think it's British.

Better that than "Property of the Harper Government of Canada."

If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist)

My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx

Posted

It references genocide, although not directly.

It references it directly enough I think.

We will never hear the stories of those children who died in an Indian residential school and did not return home.

A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.

Posted

It references it directly enough I think.

From the PM's apology to the survivors of Residential Schools:

Prime Minister Harper offers full apology on behalf of Canadians for the Indian Residential Schools system

Two primary objectives of the Residential Schools system were to remove and isolate children from the influence of their homes, families, traditions and cultures, and to assimilate them into the dominant culture. These objectives were based on the assumption Aboriginal cultures and spiritual beliefs were inferior and unequal. Indeed, some sought, as it was infamously said, "to kill the Indian in the child". Today, we recognize that this policy of assimilation was wrong, has caused great harm, and has no place in our country.

“Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran

“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein

Posted

From the PM's apology to the survivors of Residential Schools:

Again, how much money changed hands for liability? It is easy to apologize but admit no financial liability.

"The United States government officially apologizes for any satellites that have fallen on your head."

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

Posted

Again, how much money changed hands for liability? It is easy to apologize but admit no financial liability.

Yeah, because the US record when it comes to "Native North Americans" is much better:

The U.S. “apologizes on behalf of the people of the United States to all Native Peoples for the many instances of violence, maltreatment, and neglect inflicted on Native Peoples by citizens of the United States,” the statement says, adding that it is committed “to move toward a brighter future where all the people of this land live reconciled as brothers and sisters, and harmoniously steward and protect this land together.”

The statement adds, however, that it isn’t intended to support any lawsuit claims against the government (and there are still plenty).

Anyway, this really is the wrong thread for such discussions...

If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist)

My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx

Posted

Anyway, this really is the wrong thread for such discussions...

Government liability is a broad concept...so it was fun to come back with a sensitive Canadian rejoinder. Works every time.

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

Posted

Yeah, and the thread was kind of dumb to begin with so for you and I to make it even dumber isn't such a big deal either.

If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist)

My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx

Posted

Yeah, and the thread was kind of dumb to begin with so for you and I to make it even dumber isn't such a big deal either.

Hey, they can't all be works of art. Have to take the dumb with the brilliant.

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

Posted

Hey, they can't all be works of art. Have to take the dumb with the brilliant.

Yes, it's too bad we're like a couple of monkeys throwing paint at canvas and randomly typing on keyboards. :lol:

If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist)

My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx

Posted

Yes, it's too bad we're like a couple of monkeys throwing paint at canvas and randomly typing on keyboards. :lol:

It's fine by me...the Lions-Falcons game is just as boring and I'm just waiting for the washing machine cycle to finish. It's all good.

Economics trumps Virtue. 

 

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