Rank the Republican contenders by order of craziness.

Michael Hardner · November 25, 2011

And we've stopped believing the mantra of tax and spend because we can't afford it.

We can't afford it because we're making less money ? Because we're in debt ?

After the next crash, how will things rebalance with no more room to cut and no more room to tax ?

How can the richest nations not provide people with a better living ?

blueblood · November 25, 2011

We can't afford it because we're making less money ? Because we're in debt ?

After the next crash, how will things rebalance with no more room to cut and no more room to tax ?

How can the richest nations not provide people with a better living ?

We can't afford it because there isn't enough production.

We have had crashes in the 1800s when there was little to no gov't spending and the market still rebalanced itself. Things rebalance when prices drop to a point where they get cheap enough for people to buy them. The best cure for low prices is low prices.

Rich nations don't provide people with a living, people provide people with a living. Nations just provide the environment,

Michael Hardner · November 25, 2011

Rich nations don't provide people with a living, people provide people with a living. Nations just provide the environment,

What happened in the 20th century ? You had real growth in wages, shorter work week, higher taxes and yet prosperity. The middle class provided markets for producers because people had money to spend.

And how did it come about ? People demanded a better deal, and profits had to go back into the community to be spent on goods and services, not offshore or into offshore accounts.

Argus · November 26, 2011

You want to go to the way things worked, go back to the tax structure of the 1880s. That worked outstanding, and there wasn't massive gov't spending, yet the USA became the most powerful country in the world.

Look, until you can find a time machine you might as well just forget about reliving the past. Yeah, it was a lot cheaper to have cavalry than to pay for air conditioners and jet planes. Yeah not having any airports sure saved a lot of money. Sure, having no pensions and no unemployment insurance and no health care benefits was a lot cheaper. You want to relive the experience? Plenty of third world countries where you can go for that.

I thought the US had ambitions of being a modern state, though?

Those 1% create jobs and invest money

In China and Mexico and Indonesia. Yes, we know.

That's all nonsense, you know: propaganda. The rich aren't doing you any favors. What's good for GM is no longer good for the country as a whole when what's good for GM is outsourcing as many jobs as possible to Asia.

You know what creates jobs? Small business. That's what creates jobs. And you know what helps small business survive? A middle class with money to spend. That's a middle class not being bled white by bailing out banks and pouring hundreds of billions into the pockets of medical corporations, pharmaceutical companies and the insurance industry.

and in case you haven't noticed, there are many country around the world that enjoy a similar standard of living to the USA and don't cost as much to live in

.

I'm presuming by 'don't cost as much' you don't mean 'in taxes'.

If the USA wants to keep that 1% Saving, spending, and investing their money, they would be wise to provide incentive to keep them there.

Germany and Sweden have top marginal tax rates for individuals of around 50%. Why do you suppose there are still jobs in those countries?

Now while explaining that, please tell us why a 2% increase in taxes would send America into a depression and cause all the rich to flee to Panama.

blueblood · November 26, 2011

What happened in the 20th century ? You had real growth in wages, shorter work week, higher taxes and yet prosperity. The middle class provided markets for producers because people had money to spend.

And how did it come about ? People demanded a better deal, and profits had to go back into the community to be spent on goods and services, not offshore or into offshore accounts.

What you had in he 20th century was a house of cards, when one place is the only game in town that's when wages can rise. Alberta has extremely low taxes, yet it is the most prosperous place on the continent. Hmmm. What has happened is at the tax and spend crowd shot themselves in the foot and became uncompetitive. The growth in Asia is. Because they can do things at a lower cost than we can.

The prosperity came about the same way it did in Alberta, economic reality. When there is a limited amount of workers businesses have to compete with each other for labour. Timmies workers in Alberta get 20 bucks an hour because those franchise owners know damn well those workers can get a job roughnecking. Not because Alberta times workers demanded 20 npbucks an hour.

blueblood · November 26, 2011

Look, until you can find a time machine you might as well just forget about reliving the past. Yeah, it was a lot cheaper to have cavalry than to pay for air conditioners and jet planes. Yeah not having any airports sure saved a lot of money. Sure, having no pensions and no unemployment insurance and no health care benefits was a lot cheaper. You want to relive the experience? Plenty of third world countries where you can go for that.

I thought the US had ambitions of being a modern state, though?

In China and Mexico and Indonesia. Yes, we know.

That's all nonsense, you know: propaganda. The rich aren't doing you any favors. What's good for GM is no longer good for the country as a whole when what's good for GM is outsourcing as many jobs as possible to Asia.

You know what creates jobs? Small business. That's what creates jobs. And you know what helps small business survive? A middle class with money to spend. That's a middle class not being bled white by bailing out banks and pouring hundreds of billions into the pockets of medical corporations, pharmaceutical companies and the insurance industry.

I'm presuming by 'don't cost as much' you don't mean 'in taxes'.

Germany and Sweden have top marginal tax rates for individuals of around 50%. Why do you suppose there are still jobs in those countries?

Now while explaining that, please tell us why a 2% increase in taxes would send America into a depression and cause all the rich to flee to Panama.

It was that extremely low tax, low regulation environment that resulted in airplanes being invented in the first place. The USA in the 1880s had extremely cheap private health care, no unemployment insurance, and no pensions, yet it was one of the richest countries in the world at that time and becoming richer. Try again.

Uh us rich people are doing favors. The big companies buy my grain, sell me crop inputs, machinery, and many other products. Seems like a fair trade to me. Your economic idiocy of high taxes and high regulations are killing small businesses before they get started, so stop right there. By the way do you know who benefits most from high taxes and high regulations, why that's the uber corporations that you hate, why? They can afford to pay those taxes and regulations and wipe out the competition. You also know what, those companies investing overseas is creating a middle class over there to buy our products and make us richer. Perhaps we in Canada should be making what they want and at a competitive price, that might mean you easterners will have to get off your high horse and take a pay cut. Another thing, if the middle class in Canada is being bled dry as you say, wouldn't prices have to fall because those manufacturers will need to get rid of inventory. Low prices cure low prices.

Those countries have fewer taxes and regulations, as a result are reaping the benefits.

Oh here we go Germany and Sweden... The canadian dairy farmers of Europe. Lets have a captive market and ban imports while we at the same time get to sell our goods at an inflated cost. Oh and how did that recent German bond sale go?

Uh, cuz all the jobs are already currently fleeing the USA, but lets jack up taxes on the people who produce things and are the backbone of our economy because poor timmy will starve in the street if we don't. Save your sob stories for someone who cares.

WWWTT · November 26, 2011

It was that extremely low tax, low regulation environment that resulted in airplanes being invented in the first place. The USA in the 1880s had extremely cheap private health care, no unemployment insurance, and no pensions, yet it was one of the richest countries in the world at that time and becoming richer. Try again.

Are you serious?

Low taxes resulted in planes being invented?

Man thats freekin hallarious!

I finaly figured you out buddy.

Your one of these people that like to make up outrageous stories!

Good luck

WWWTT

blueblood · November 26, 2011

Are you serious?

Low taxes resulted in planes being invented?

Man thats freekin hallarious!

I finaly figured you out buddy.

Your one of these people that like to make up outrageous stories!

Good luck

WWWTT

What was income tax at the time of the invention of the airplane?

Did the wright bros. Receive govt funding so they could invent the airplane?

Do you know how many products were invented during that time period?

Hmmm, who's being outrageous?

Michael Hardner · November 26, 2011

What you had in he 20th century was a house of cards, when one place is the only game in town that's when wages can rise. Alberta has extremely low taxes, yet it is the most prosperous place on the continent. Hmmm. What has happened is at the tax and spend crowd shot themselves in the foot and became uncompetitive. The growth in Asia is. Because they can do things at a lower cost than we can.

Taxing and spending caused Canada to become uncompetitive ? Shouldn't our wages have gone up with our standard of living ? Didn't Alberta's wages rise at about the same rate as other places in NA ?

The prosperity came about the same way it did in Alberta, economic reality. When there is a limited amount of workers businesses have to compete with each other for labour. Timmies workers in Alberta get 20 bucks an hour because those franchise owners know damn well those workers can get a job roughnecking. Not because Alberta times workers demanded 20 npbucks an hour.

Tim Horton's workers can get jobs roughnecking ? Why is there a limited amount of workers ? This isn't clear to me.

Michael Hardner · November 26, 2011

What was income tax at the time of the invention of the airplane?

Did the wright bros. Receive govt funding so they could invent the airplane?

Do you know how many products were invented during that time period?

Hmmm, who's being outrageous?

How much intellectual property was owned and protected by corporations ? How much of the economy, of retail, of research was done by corporations at that time ? What were the barriers to entry ? How mature was the science ?

There is something to the idea of opening up new fields to competition at the beginning - such as happened with software, and the web - but you have to be careful when you're trying to compare eras across the centuries, as there were a lot of differences besides the tax system.

blueblood · November 26, 2011

Taxing and spending caused Canada to become uncompetitive ? Shouldn't our wages have gone up with our standard of living ? Didn't Alberta's wages rise at about the same rate as other places in NA ?

Tim Horton's workers can get jobs roughnecking ? Why is there a limited amount of workers ? This isn't clear to me.

Taxing and spending caused ontario to become uncompetitive.

Alberta can't move its primary industry to china, ontario can. Wages only rise when there is fewer workers to do the availible jobs, if you make the same wage and at the same time products become cheaper because of economies of scale does your standard of living not go up?

Timmies jobs can get jobs roughnecking quite easily because its not much skill to do. It pays well so in order for timmies to get workers instead of the rigs, they have to pay. There's a limited amount of workers in western canada because there is lots of work and not enough people to do it. Hence oil companies popping up billboards with job offers on the trans canada highway.

As for you next post, there was ip, science was vastly improving as it is today, maybe even faster then, just about every thing was privately done then and there was massive growth. Without massive govt regulations as there are today, there was less barrier to entry.

The problem is that we have to get back to that, but the intellectuals and those who benefit from big govt will be kicking and screaming the entire way.

Michael Hardner · November 26, 2011

Taxing and spending caused ontario to become uncompetitive.

How so ? Aren't labour costs the deciding factor in jobs going offshore ?

Alberta can't move its primary industry to china, ontario can. Wages only rise when there is fewer workers to do the availible jobs, if you make the same wage and at the same time products become cheaper because of economies of scale does your standard of living not go up?

So: if Alberta can import immigrants to work in Alberta, wages will fall.

Also this means that since workers are mobile, wages should fall in Alberta soon.

As for you next post, there was ip, science was vastly improving as it is today, maybe even faster then, just about every thing was privately done then and there was massive growth. Without massive govt regulations as there are today, there was less barrier to entry.

But science ... or inventing ... was mostly done by individuals because corporations weren't as dominant, right ? It wasn't just government that provided barriers to entry.

blueblood · November 27, 2011

How so ? Aren't labour costs the deciding factor in jobs going offshore ?

So: if Alberta can import immigrants to work in Alberta, wages will fall.

Also this means that since workers are mobile, wages should fall in Alberta soon.

But science ... or inventing ... was mostly done by individuals because corporations weren't as dominant, right ? It wasn't just government that provided barriers to entry.

Taxing and spending also means the govt is doing a lot which requires money, part of it is creating regulations that inhibit growth. Its gotten to the point where eastern canada can't compete with asia.

That's correct wages will fall if more workers flood into alberta, if your a franchise owner or a small business guy, that's a good thing. Wages will fall when the amt of workers exceeds the amt of work to do. That hasn't happened yet. Lower wages aren't necessarily a bad thing, it helps out small business with costs and keeps inflation in check.

Corporations have been around for a long time in the usa, since the whaling days. They had money then and money now. The only difference is the size of govt.

Argus · November 27, 2011

Taxing and spending also means the govt is doing a lot which requires money, part of it is creating regulations that inhibit growth. Its gotten to the point where eastern canada can't compete with asia.

You mean regulations that keep people safe at work? Or maybe you mean regulations that don't allow baby food producers to put scrap metal into the mix? Regulations which require childrens' clothing to be fireproof? Regulations to stop auto gas tanks from exploding on impact? Or perhaps regulations which stop banks from investing all their money in leveraged, speculative derivatives?

Michael Hardner · November 27, 2011

Taxing and spending also means the govt is doing a lot which requires money, part of it is creating regulations that inhibit growth. Its gotten to the point where eastern canada can't compete with asia.

I don't think that regulations are the problem here as much as wage competition.

Corporations have been around for a long time in the usa, since the whaling days. They had money then and money now. The only difference is the size of govt.

The size and influence of corporations, their ability to create barriers to entry in more areas - these are all significant factors to consider.

bush_cheney2004 · November 27, 2011

Rep. Bachmann is having great fun rubbing NBC's nose in its "sexist" mistake:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/27/michele-bachmann-nbc-apology-roots-fallon-late-night_n_1114944.html?1322406988

This is reminiscent of an Obama campaign gaffe that insulted Hillary Clinton / women with Jay Z's "99 problems".

dre · November 28, 2011

What was income tax at the time of the invention of the airplane?
Did the wright bros. Receive govt funding so they could invent the airplane?

Do you know how many products were invented during that time period?

Its amazing you cant see the logical fallacy of this argument.

Its gotten to the point where eastern canada can't compete with asia.

It never could. As soon as asia was allowed into the marketplace they started to kick western ass. The chinese have an unlimited supply of dirt cheap labor, and the japs are just flat out smarter than us.

Canada has never been ANYTHING economically except for a country that cuts down trees, mines ore, and pumps oil. If we didnt have a geographical advantage we would be a third world country.

Edited November 28, 2011 by dre

Michael Hardner · November 28, 2011

Not exactly true... communications were a strength, until about 10 years ago.

dre · November 28, 2011

Not exactly true... communications were a strength, until about 10 years ago.

Yup, and weve had other "strengths" here and there as well. For the most part though we have always been a resource based economy, and globalism makes it pretty unlikely that will change.

Our resources could have been used as the foundation to become a productive powerhouse... It makes good common sense to have a lot of production capacity in close proximity to caches of resources. Thats not how it worked out though. It was easier to just start flogging the resources than it was to develope productive industries, and free trade pretty much buried that idea. It would be illegal now for us to try to use our resources to give our productive industries an advantage.

We are wealthy for roughly the same reason Saudi Arabia is.

Smallc · November 28, 2011

That's pretty well not true. Canada has a very broad based economy, that includes things from financial services to energy creation, to resource extraction, to aerospace. Canada isn't like Saudi Arabia. Canada is wealthy for the same reason that most other first world countries are - that is, a varied economy, a representative democracy, and a reasonable amount of stability.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cis-sic.nsf/eng/h_00013.html

Edited November 28, 2011 by Smallc

blueblood · November 28, 2011

You mean regulations that keep people safe at work? Or maybe you mean regulations that don't allow baby food producers to put scrap metal into the mix? Regulations which require childrens' clothing to be fireproof? Regulations to stop auto gas tanks from exploding on impact? Or perhaps regulations which stop banks from investing all their money in leveraged, speculative derivatives?

No risk no reward, the Asians are growing and we aren't. Fat lot of good onerous regulations did here.

Argus · November 28, 2011

No risk no reward, the Asians are growing and we aren't. Fat lot of good onerous regulations did here.

It's pretty easy to grow from nothing. When your economy is a mess, a little application of private enterprise can work wonders, and result in exploding productivity. But there's a law of diminishing returns where the higher you get the harder it is to go higher. The Chinese were so low they have little difficulty in improving. Hell, two thirds of Chinese are still living the same life of primitive poverty the peasants did a century ago.

Jack Weber · November 28, 2011

What happened in the 20th century ? You had real growth in wages, shorter work week, higher taxes and yet prosperity. The middle class provided markets for producers because people had money to spend.

And how did it come about ? People demanded a better deal, and profits had to go back into the community to be spent on goods and services, not offshore or into offshore accounts.

As it relates to industry????

One word....

Unions!!!!

Jack Weber · November 28, 2011

What was income tax at the time of the invention of the airplane?

Did the wright bros. Receive govt funding so they could invent the airplane?

Do you know how many products were invented during that time period?

Hmmm, who's being outrageous?

Are seriously advocating for a return to the Robber Baron era???